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Old
11-21-2013, 05:08 PM
  #151
Aiastelmon
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Really strange situation with Borts. There's just nothing out there. No comment about how he needs to play better. Nothing about him being hurt. Just total silence. Does anyone know?
Yohe had a trib article about this dated this past Tuesday 11/19, and I wouldn't even reference it, but Bort had a quote in it:

Instead of griping, Bortuzzo is taking the demotion in stride.

“If you get down about stuff like this,” Bortuzzo said, “I think you're probably in the wrong business. It's part of hockey. It's part of sports. Of course you never want to have to sit at any point in your career, but it happens to a lot of people.”


http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...enseman-season

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11-21-2013, 06:06 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
See... that I don't necessarily agree with. Maatta you could... because he's proven something. Despres... eh... maybe. They all need to play first before they have real trade value.
No reason why any of them couldn't be dealt for a comparable wing prospect, if we were so inclined. And we'd be no further behind than if we'd drafted the wing ourselves.

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11-21-2013, 07:56 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Aiastelmon View Post
Yohe had a trib article about this dated this past Tuesday 11/19, and I wouldn't even reference it, but Bort had a quote in it:

Instead of griping, Bortuzzo is taking the demotion in stride.

“If you get down about stuff like this,” Bortuzzo said, “I think you're probably in the wrong business. It's part of hockey. It's part of sports. Of course you never want to have to sit at any point in your career, but it happens to a lot of people.”


http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...enseman-season
Young players aren't allowed to have one single bad game. He's right to not get down. It's 100% his fault that he's sitting.

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Old
11-21-2013, 08:08 PM
  #154
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Yes, it's discouraging to say the least.

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11-21-2013, 08:16 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Young players aren't allowed to have one single bad game. He's right to not get down. It's 100% his fault that he's sitting.
He's just waiting for Engo to have his bad game......wait a minute!

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11-21-2013, 08:27 PM
  #156
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Some how Engelland is jamming younger better players at defense & forward. Didn't see that coming.

It's not that Engelland is a horrible player that some make him out to be. He's just not a good one.

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11-21-2013, 08:37 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Some how Engelland is jamming younger better players at defense & forward. Didn't see that coming.

It's not that Engelland is a horrible player that some make him out to be. He's just not a good one.
He has these games where he's oddly smooth. It's so strange. I think he should stay at forward or be traded. Bortuzzo is wasting away and we're worse for having Engo back there most games.

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11-21-2013, 08:59 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Some how Engelland is jamming younger better players at defense & forward. Didn't see that coming.

It's not that Engelland is a horrible player that some make him out to be. He's just not a good one.
Engelland is both good and versatile. He's just not as good as Bortuzzo.

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11-21-2013, 09:15 PM
  #159
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Bylsma must really relate to Engelland seeing as they both spent a long time in the minors. he just has to find a spot for him somewhere in the lineup.

i heard they're gonna send Zatkoff down and make Engo the backup goalie!

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11-21-2013, 09:26 PM
  #160
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Definitely not, he's just the odd man out right now. Can't trade Niskanen for peanuts when he's playing well just to open up a spot for Despres, especially with Scuds out.

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11-21-2013, 09:28 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Engelland is both good and versatile. He's just not as good as Bortuzzo.
I agree, not consistently good enough however. When he has a good game he is passable, but when he is bad, jesus christ is he terrible.

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11-21-2013, 09:42 PM
  #162
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I agree, not consistently good enough however. When he has a good game he is passable, but when he is bad, jesus christ is he terrible.
I really don't see that. He's been a serviceable bottom pairing defenseman most times I've seen him play this year, and never abysmal. I've probably missed 1/4 of the games though, so maybe I missed some real stinkers.

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11-21-2013, 09:52 PM
  #163
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Engelland biggest problem by far is his inability to transition the puck up ice against decent teams. He hasn't played many playoff games but he's looked pretty damn poor in the ones he has played. There's no problem with him as a 7th d-man or even 4th-liner but at the same time there's no reason at all he should be playing consistently over Bortuzzo.

Basically it comes down to this, Bortuzzo could help this team in the playoffs, especially since Maatta won't be playing with Letang come playoff time and the pair, Maatta & Bortuzzo, has shown promise together. Engelland shouldn't dress as a d-man come playoff time under any circumstance. Doesn't make any sense to staple Bortuzzo to the bench, but he should be used to it since he only dressed for barely a dozen games last season. Despite a number of full seasons in the minors, he's still a bit too ripe yet for DB.

Hell, change Engelland to Eaton and Bortuzzo to Despres and it's pretty much the same deal as last year. I didn't believe it until I looked it up but Despres only played in 36 of a possible 63 games last season, including 3 in the playoffs, where he was essentially a 7th d-man in the games he did appear in.


Last edited by Sivek: 11-22-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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Old
11-21-2013, 10:04 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Engelland biggest problem by far is his inability to transition the puck up ice against decent teams. He hasn't played many playoff games but he's looked pretty damn poor in the ones he has played. There's no problem with him as a 7th d-man or even 4th-liner but at the same time there's no reason at all he should be playing consistently over Bortuzzo.

Basically it comes down to this, Bortuzzo could help this team in the playoffs, especially since Maatta won't be playing with Letang come playoff time and the pair, Maatta & Bortuzzo, has shown promise together. Engelland shouldn't dress as a d-man come playoff time under any circumstance. Doesn't make any sense to staple Bortuzzo to the bench, but he should be used to it since he only dressed for barely a dozen games last season. Despite a number of full seasons in the minors, he's still a bit too ripe yet for DB.

Hell, change Engelland to Eaton and Bortuzzo to Despres and it's pretty much the same deal as last year. I didn't believe it until I look but Despres only played in 36 of a possible 63 games last season, including 3 in the playoffs, where he was essentially a 7th d-man in the 3 playoff game he did appear in.
Bortuzzo should be playing over Engelland. But Engo has had good playoffs. In fact, he was one of our our only solid defensemen during the Philly fiasco in '12.

He was better than Michalek, Martin, or Orpik in that series.

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11-21-2013, 10:21 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Bortuzzo should be playing over Engelland. But Engo has had good playoffs. In fact, he was one of our our only solid defensemen during the Philly fiasco in '12.

He was better than Michalek, Martin, or Orpik in that series.
Engelland and Niskanen were the best of a bad lot. No matter how terrible the goaltending was, at the end of the day, the team gave up 25+ goals in 6-game series. The only other playoff experience he has was last season and he was a minus player in 4 out of 5 games he played with a goalie that wasn't trying to sabotage the team and was particularly poor during the series-changing OT loss to the Bruins.

I don't dislike what Engelland brings, but he's kind of a small-scale Dupuis situation where it annoys me to see him being such a line-up mainstay. He's played in nearly 90% of the regular-season games the last two seasons and 16 so far this year. It's very unlikely a situation will appear when he sits out for more than a game or two at a time. If the team didn't have an alternative, I wouldn't really mind, but Bortuzzo has shown flashes of what he can do, along with some poor games, and now's the time to see what he can do on a full-time basis. He did the healthy scratch thing all of last season. His game will stagnate if ends up being a scratch for the a large portion of the season for the 2nd year in a row.


Last edited by Sivek: 11-21-2013 at 10:26 PM.
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Old
11-21-2013, 10:44 PM
  #166
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My real issue with Bort sitting is that we're wasting valuable playing time for a player who will benefit from it significantly. Whether Bort figures into our long term plans or not, he needs to play.

And you'd have a hard time making a case that Engo is better than Bort in any capacity anyways.

So it does seem like DB just wants the guy in the lineup. I'd rather have him on the 4th line than Glass, so there you go, two problems solved.

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11-21-2013, 10:58 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiastelmon View Post
My real issue with Bort sitting is that we're wasting valuable playing time for a player who will benefit from it significantly. Whether Bort figures into our long term plans or not, he needs to play.

And you'd have a hard time making a case that Engo is better than Bort in any capacity anyways.

So it does seem like DB just wants the guy in the lineup. I'd rather have him on the 4th line than Glass, so there you go, two problems solved.
It's the battle of his favourites, for Engelland to play half of Gladams needs to sit. Wait,

Jokinen - Sutter - Glass
Engelland - Vitale - Adams

He could have them all playing as forwards....

Bortuzzo does need to be playing, though. The longer this goes on the worse it gets.

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11-21-2013, 11:14 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
But Engo has had good playoffs. In fact, he was one of our our only solid defensemen during the Philly fiasco in '12.
Like saying "out of all the people that threw up at the work party, you threw up the least".

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11-21-2013, 11:24 PM
  #169
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He'll be in the top-4 next year when Orpik leaves and we need a big body dman to fill the void

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11-22-2013, 06:30 AM
  #170
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He'll be in the top-4 next year when Orpik leaves and we need a big body dman to fill the void
You honestly think DB will give him top 4 time nest year w/o playing this year?

Not playing Des this year will justify re-signing Orpik because he Des doesn't have enough experience.

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11-22-2013, 06:47 AM
  #171
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CDB ought to be locked up for prospect abuse. Seriously, I hope wherever he lands after his time with the Pens hands him a roster 100% stocked with very talented young guys with 2 or less years of experience

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11-22-2013, 06:58 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Engelland and Niskanen were the best of a bad lot. No matter how terrible the goaltending was, at the end of the day, the team gave up 25+ goals in 6-game series. The only other playoff experience he has was last season and he was a minus player in 4 out of 5 games he played with a goalie that wasn't trying to sabotage the team and was particularly poor during the series-changing OT loss to the Bruins.
The fact remains that he was solid. I hate when our fans paint with such a broad brush that they conveniently forget the facts.

Yes, Bort should be playing over Engo. Yes, Engo was bad vs. the Bruins (like no small number of other Pens, most earning millions upon millions more a year).

But no, he's not a bad player, he's a very serviceable bottom pairing guy and a surprisingly effective forward. And no, he hasn't been "pretty damn poor in the playoff games he's played", he's had one good series and one bad one...where nearly all our players have a similar distinction.

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11-22-2013, 09:25 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The fact remains that he was solid. I hate when our fans paint with such a broad brush that they conveniently forget the facts.

Yes, Bort should be playing over Engo. Yes, Engo was bad vs. the Bruins (like no small number of other Pens, most earning millions upon millions more a year).

But no, he's not a bad player, he's a very serviceable bottom pairing guy and a surprisingly effective forward. And no, he hasn't been "pretty damn poor in the playoff games he's played", he's had one good series and one bad one...where nearly all our players have a similar distinction.
Also, Bylsma was playing Bortuzzo over Engelland just a few short weeks ago. So it's not like it's a conspiracy where Bylsma refuses to play Bortuzzo when he has Engelland available.

It's one of those things where as long as the team is winning why change the lineup? Maybe it's not fair but I'm sure we'll see Bortuzzo back in the lineup after the next loss , worst case.

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11-22-2013, 09:31 AM
  #174
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Barring injuries I have a feeling Elmer will spend the year in WBS. Not as any sort of punishment but I think because the team didn't like the results they got by having him up here half the time and down there half the time. They've probably set him to working on specific parts of his game and barring necessity they'll let him stay there and focus on that, partly with the idea it will piss him off a little / make him hungry to kick some ass in next year's camp when there will likely be two openings on the roster at least.

I haven't given up on Elmer but don't expect to see him around much this year. As for trades, we've all mentioned it from time to time but I don't think it's likely. I think he's a part of this team's plans, but they don't feel he's matured enough yet. Consistency has always been their thing with him (justified or not), so they not rushing him after giving him his initial chance and not being convinced he was ready for full-time duty. I think there probably is a work ethic thing at play there, especially if you consider Maatta and everything that's been said about his work ethic.

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11-22-2013, 10:00 AM
  #175
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Barring injuries I have a feeling Elmer will spend the year in WBS. Not as any sort of punishment but I think because the team didn't like the results they got by having him up here half the time and down there half the time. They've probably set him to working on specific parts of his game and barring necessity they'll let him stay there and focus on that, partly with the idea it will piss him off a little / make him hungry to kick some ass in next year's camp when there will likely be two openings on the roster at least.

I haven't given up on Elmer but don't expect to see him around much this year. As for trades, we've all mentioned it from time to time but I don't think it's likely. I think he's a part of this team's plans, but they don't feel he's matured enough yet. Consistency has always been their thing with him (justified or not), so they not rushing him after giving him his initial chance and not being convinced he was ready for full-time duty. I think there probably is a work ethic thing at play there, especially if you consider Maatta and everything that's been said about his work ethic.
Yea, it's like the Pens go out of their way to say how great of shape bortuzzo was coming into camp, how prepared Maatta was, etc. Almost like saying, "Hey Simon see how in shape and prepared these other prospects are, the ones that are staying up with the big club? get the hint..."

I don't think the Pens have given up on him at all. Guys that big that can skate like that are not common. If he hits his potential he is absolutely a top 4 defensemen on this club.

However, I do think that perhaps his "untouchable" moniker is now gone and if the right trade offer was made he's outta here.

Personally I want to see him succeed, as good as maatta is the highs of Despres are still higher then Oli's (as demonstrated in the NHL so far) Simon just has to be consistent, in shape, and prepared. The fact that his 3rd year as a pro that he is not is a bit concerning.

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