HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

MTL should find a way to lower the cost of defensive line

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-22-2013, 06:33 AM
  #26
ak90210
Registered User
 
ak90210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 757
vCash: 500
I thought they overpaid for Mario Williams too.

ak90210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2013, 08:04 AM
  #27
Lionel Mandrake
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
With Markov (6m), Subban (8m), Emelin (4m), Gorges (4m), Diaz (3m) and a filler/rookie (1m) + spare (1m) it puts us at 27m for the whole D. I agree it is not ideal but far from a critical situation when you factor in the ever climbing 70m cap. Considering we don't have any big name forwards to re-sign to lucrative contracts and that Gionta's salary is off the books come season end, I don't think we should lose any sleep over the fact the D is paid 5m-ish more than the theoretical and rarely reachable ideal figure. I'm not against trading one of Gorges or Diaz later down the road, but only when a youngster steals their spot in the lineup.

I also happen to think this is a pretty good D with Tinordi on it next year. I think the rearangement and cap saving moves will need to be up front.

  Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2013, 08:10 AM
  #28
bsl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, if we have a time machine we can go back to last year and give Subban a 5 for 25 like he asked for.

Anybody got one? A Delorean maybe? A Flux Capacitor? 1.21 Giggawatts?
I invented a time machine once. It ran on AAA batteries. I could go back or forward one minute.

bsl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2013, 08:15 AM
  #29
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,117
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, if we have a time machine we can go back to last year and give Subban a 5 for 25 like he asked for.

Anybody got one? A Delorean maybe? A Flux Capacitor? 1.21 Giggawatts?
No we needed that 2.25 this year and last year to sign our RFAs and UFAs like Corey Perry... Imagine this team with DD making under 2 mill and Bouillon not being able to re-sign because Subban took all his money... The world would implode.

CrAzYNiNe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2013, 08:16 AM
  #30
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,117
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
I invented a time machine once. It ran on AAA batteries. I could go back or forward one minute.
I've only been able to go forward 1 minute by waiting 60 seconds.

CrAzYNiNe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2013, 08:17 AM
  #31
Joe Cole
Registered User
 
Joe Cole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 3,209
vCash: 500
Players that are not part of the long term plans still need to be signed so that they can be traded for something, otherwise they are wasted assets if they walk and the Habs get nothing in return.

The Habs have two AHL D's knocking on the door, possibly a third. If that happens next year, you need to clear two spots, and have one steady inexpensive veteran who doesn't mind sitting for stretches at a time, possibly two

The key to cap management is having ELC players that perform at NHL level.

Joe Cole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2013, 08:43 AM
  #32
otto bond
Registered User
 
otto bond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,174
vCash: 500
I'm not crazy about our D and if anything, it should be a bigger investment.
I have to admit that with Emelin in, it changes a lot things in a good way.
I would like to see an upgrade on either Diaz or Gorges. Bouillon is fine to me in terms of 6th D but I wouldn't cry if he was moved.

PK-Markov Got to love this duo and now that Markov is on top of his game again.
Emelin-xxx well Emelin completes the top 3, IMO we need another top pairing D

After that, insert in Gorges and Diaz for the 4-5 depth chart with Bouillon at 6th and Murrey at 7th.

otto bond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2013, 09:07 AM
  #33
Uber Coca
Registered User
 
Uber Coca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,152
vCash: 500
Not **** Sherlock! Montreal is slowly becoming the Flyers with this kind of defense. Subban - Markov - Gorges - Emelin is a decent top-4, expensive but decent. Signing Diaz at 3M$ or more could be a mistake. Will he be tradeable? I know losing Diaz via free agency isn't a popular option but it would be stupid to sign him without any market for him.

Also, I'd give Tinordi, Pateryn and Beaulieu a chance next season. Beaulieu with limited ice-time could be wonderful for his development and for the Canadiens. Subban - Markov - Beaulieu and Emelin - Gorges - Tinordi (Pateryn) looks balanced enough for me.

Uber Coca is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2013, 03:59 PM
  #34
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,548
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
I invented a time machine once. It ran on AAA batteries. I could go back or forward one minute.
Take me away, I don't mind. But you better promise me I'll be back in time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
No we needed that 2.25 this year and last year to sign our RFAs and UFAs like Corey Perry... Imagine this team with DD making under 2 mill and Bouillon not being able to re-sign because Subban took all his money... The world would implode.
Right, I forgot. Oh well, at least we got Perry out of it.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2013, 05:28 PM
  #35
tinyzombies
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: LA via Montreal
Posts: 12,026
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
I'm not crazy about our D and if anything, it should be a bigger investment.
I have to admit that with Emelin in, it changes a lot things in a good way.
I would like to see an upgrade on either Diaz or Gorges. Bouillon is fine to me in terms of 6th D but I wouldn't cry if he was moved.

PK-Markov Got to love this duo and now that Markov is on top of his game again.
Emelin-xxx well Emelin completes the top 3, IMO we need another top pairing D

After that, insert in Gorges and Diaz for the 4-5 depth chart with Bouillon at 6th and Murrey at 7th.
I agree about bigger investment, but not sure about Markov. I would wait until the deadline and see how his game goes.

I like what another poster said about Gorges. For his type of game, we should have someone bigger there.

Not a Diaz fan, but at least he moves the puck and is valuable as a second unit guy. Gorges is not the same player, but he is valuable at blocking shots... if that really is all we are able to do...

tinyzombies is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 01:29 AM
  #36
Habs100
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 881
vCash: 500
Between our top 5 d men (Subban, Markov, Emelin, Gorges, Diaz), and our many good prospects (Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pateryn, Nygren, Dietz, Ellis, Thrower), I hope we package a couple dmen, other than Subban, Emelin, and Markov, when a good young forward becomes available (like Kadri or Seguin once were).

Habs100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 01:32 AM
  #37
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 10,341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs100 View Post
Between our top 5 d men (Subban, Markov, Emelin, Gorges, Diaz), and our many good prospects (Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pateryn, Nygren, Dietz, Ellis, Thrower), I hope we package a couple dmen, other than Subban, Emelin, and Markov, when a good young forward becomes available (like Kadri or Seguin once were).
Hockey is not like the financial market. Money isn't fungible. You can't package two nickels to acquire a dime.

DAChampion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 02:31 AM
  #38
Runner77
******************
 
Runner77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,951
vCash: 4600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
Players that are not part of the long term plans still need to be signed so that they can be traded for something, otherwise they are wasted assets if they walk and the Habs get nothing in return.
Signing players out of fear that they'll walk isn't a viable strategy, when the team doesn't consider them to be core assets.

I understand the part about signing them to a contract that is tradeable, but that still means the team takes on the risk of finding out just how tradeable that contract is. While I don't want to compare Diaz to DD, fact remains that when MB signed DD, the general feeling was that there is a built-in safety valve in terms of the contract's market-friendliness.

Hence, you have to hope Diaz doesn't crater or become a lesser player versus the value a new contract will be setting. And like DD, Diaz doesn't particularly excel at anything and is another diminutive type on a defensive corps that can definitely use more size.

Runner77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 05:22 AM
  #39
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 33,739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamp View Post
So like the title says Montreal needs to lose some salary on the defensive line. I see the top4 being too expensive at this point Markov(5)-Subban(7-8),Emelin(4)-Gorges(4). I see Gorges as the odd man out if indeed Bergevin signs Markov and Subban. We would need to find a cheap top4 defenseman option (salary wise) to lower the cost. Names that comes to mind are Kulikov, Demers.
I think eventually that will happen, but it may not be until summer 2015.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 08:21 AM
  #40
Blind Gardien
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 20,551
vCash: 500
I'm content with our D, on the ice and on the payroll. $27M on a $70M cap would seem pretty reasonable for a team that performs top-10 defensively, has a Norris winner, and has no gamebreaking star forwards.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 08:44 AM
  #41
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 13,826
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I'm content with our D, on the ice and on the payroll. $27M on a $70M cap would seem pretty reasonable for a team that performs top-10 defensively, has a Norris winner, and has no gamebreaking star forwards.
Will the cap jump from 64M to 70M?

BLONG7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 09:45 AM
  #42
Habitants
Registered User
 
Habitants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,184
vCash: 500
for those top 4 its fine. just don't sign diaz. he is just ok, not worth a big contract since he does not brinh enough to the table. brinh in tinordi and beaulieu next season makes 6 then add a cheap reliable extra who is not bouillon or murray.

kulikov will cost too much via trade. demers is not great.

Habitants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 09:51 AM
  #43
Jakomyte
Registered User
 
Jakomyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,287
vCash: 500
People worry too much about the cap and what players make anyway. When we actually can't re-sign a good player because of cap issues, I'll toss in a complaint as well, but until that happens, I don't know why everyone needs to get in a tizzy.

Jakomyte is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 10:36 AM
  #44
Blind Gardien
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 20,551
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Will the cap jump from 64M to 70M?
Yes. It was slated to hit $70.2M last time on $3.3B, before the lockout, and while the players's share has been scale back now to 50%, it looks like overall revenue is easily up the 7% or more to cover the difference. Attendance is up, ticket prices are up, outdoor games are coming, I can't imagine the cap to rise at anything like a conservative rate in coming years. Unless there are external economic factors driving things (drop in Cdn exchange, some kind of financial calamity/recession with all the US budget battles, etc).

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 10:50 AM
  #45
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 13,826
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Yes. It was slated to hit $70.2M last time on $3.3B, before the lockout, and while the players's share has been scale back now to 50%, it looks like overall revenue is easily up the 7% or more to cover the difference. Attendance is up, ticket prices are up, outdoor games are coming, I can't imagine the cap to rise at anything like a conservative rate in coming years. Unless there are external economic factors driving things (drop in Cdn exchange, some kind of financial calamity/recession with all the US budget battles, etc).
This is good news for the Habs...

BLONG7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 11:01 AM
  #46
Bryson
Registered User
 
Bryson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,769
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I'm content with our D, on the ice and on the payroll. $27M on a $70M cap would seem pretty reasonable for a team that performs top-10 defensively, has a Norris winner, and has no gamebreaking star forwards.
Really? How could you be? After Markov and Subban there is a huge drop off in skill. Emelin brings stability and physicality. So that makes 1-2-3 that I am happy with but Gorges has zero offensive ability and is weak on the puck and his awareness is questionable. How many pucks have deflected off him and into the net this season? He has a lot of respect in the locker room though so I wonder what the chances that he'd get traded are? Diaz is weak too although he makes up for it with his smarts and good stick work but still makes the habs too easy to play against. Murray and Boullion just suck.

Could we upgrade our top 4 with a Gorges and Diaz package for somebody like Edler? If we could get rid of DD and Briere and pick up a scoring winger like Vanek and a real top 4 D man I would be so happy...and of course that's the point where I wake up...

Bryson is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 11:17 AM
  #47
Draft
Registered User
 
Draft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
for those top 4 its fine. just don't sign diaz. he is just ok, not worth a big contract since he does not brinh enough to the table. brinh in tinordi and beaulieu next season makes 6 then add a cheap reliable extra who is not bouillon or murray.

kulikov will cost too much via trade. demers is not great.
I think Demers would be a good #4 defenceman. I think he's Diaz with a little less poise but more physicality. If he could be signed for around 3mil, I'd take him in our top-4.

Kulikov would be a short term cost saver but would end up costing as much or more than our already established dmen (Markov, Emelin, Gorges) if he's to reach his potential.

This might come down to who you'd rather see in the top-4: Gorges or Diaz?

Draft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 11:29 AM
  #48
Blind Gardien
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 20,551
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
Really? How could you be? After Markov and Subban there is a huge drop off in skill. Emelin brings stability and physicality. So that makes 1-2-3 that I am happy with but Gorges has zero offensive ability and is weak on the puck and his awareness is questionable. How many pucks have deflected off him and into the net this season? He has a lot of respect in the locker room though so I wonder what the chances that he'd get traded are? Diaz is weak too although he makes up for it with his smarts and good stick work but still makes the habs too easy to play against. Murray and Boullion just suck.

Could we upgrade our top 4 with a Gorges and Diaz package for somebody like Edler? If we could get rid of DD and Briere and pick up a scoring winger like Vanek and a real top 4 D man I would be so happy...and of course that's the point where I wake up...
"Content".... our goaltending and D are "good enough" for a next step. Subban and Markov are better than most 1-2 punches. Emelin and Gorges and even Diaz the way he's playing (not sure I trust it, but he's doing it for now) are easily sufficient for the #3-4-5 roles. I agree that Bouillon and Murray have disappointed, but really, when I watch other teams play, I don't see a lot of "impressive" #6-7 d-men around the league. I guess that's why they are #6-7 guys. I wouldn't really look at upgrading our D for now. Not as a priority item, anyway. If something too good to be true comes along, great, take improvements where you can. But I can see us being, say, a Conference-finalist calibre team with this defense corps.

It's the forwards that are off. Too small, not enough reliable breakthrough scoring ability. I think there is potential there for good balance, but really, it's not a group that gets us to the Conference-finalist calibre IMHO. It keeps us in the "maybe we can make the playoffs" category.

So far anyway. All is subject to change... for example, the D I'm really only "confident" in Subban and Gorges in their roles... I could see Markov tailing off, or Emelin not living up to expectations, or Diaz's effectiveness falling off. If that were to happen, evaluations could change. But for now, the priority for improving the team would have to be up front IMHO. Some of it may come with utilization changes. Once we can say the forward group is at the "Conference finalist" candidate level, then I'm ok with switching over and re-looking at the D for the next step after that to "contender" status. But one step at a time.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 11:34 AM
  #49
Tyson
Registered User
 
Tyson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 6,232
vCash: 500
I have a hard time not liking what Gorges brings. He is a very solid guy who blocks shots, kills penalties and eats up a lot of minutes.
The Habs have to start thinking though at how they plan on integrating the young D they have waiting in the wings. Pateryn literally has nothing left to prove in Hamilton. Tinordi has to be a regular next year. Beaulieu I am not sold on, he simply can't play defense.

Tyson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2013, 11:39 AM
  #50
King Niinimaa*
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 291
vCash: 500
There's no point giving 3-4 year contracts for replaceable players like Diaz. These corps aren't that great anyway, so why pay big bucks to keep them together?

We have enough untradeable stop-gap contracts, it's about time to end it.

King Niinimaa* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:47 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.