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2013-2014 CHL/NCAA/Euro Prospects thread 2.0

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Old
11-24-2013, 07:24 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Mantha is almost a full year older than McCarron, so he should be looking like a more polished product. Secondly, Mantha's questions were never whether or not he could score goals.. it's whether or not he has the heart, will or compete to be a scorer at the NHL level, especially in the play-offs where things get physical and tight.

The Habs have enough scoring talent that is questionable to get it done in tight checking. The last thing they need is another soft "goal" scorer who may not even survive in the NHL because he doesn't have any real fire to his game. The draft is judged in 5 years after for a reason. Remember when Perron was better than Pacioretty?

Finally, no one cares what league they are from. Mantha being from the Q has nothing to do with anything.
Well said, exactly my thoughts!!

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11-24-2013, 09:07 AM
  #402
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Yes....we all need to be careful in assessing a player. I think that there's a HUGE difference between saying "I'm dissapointing in a player" and "that player is a bust" or "He'll NEVER be anything else than a 4th liner"....Last 2 statements are just way too premature to say the least. I remember not that long ago how McDonagh's WJC was so dissapointing he'd never amount to a whole lot.....Or when Justin Pogge was the greatest goalie in the face of this planet and so on....I think we have ENOUGH examples to be extremely careful in assessing to play of kids, especially in a short stint.

But it doesn't mean like we can't be dissapointed. Last year, Dalton Thrower had an AWFUL year. I think, probably one of the worst setback years that I've seen a Hab prospect have. And not only statswise, but I've seen him quite often (not live though), and I saw a guy who didn't bring anything offensively, was bad defensively, and looked lazy and disinterested. Frankly, he was giving up on so many plays it was scary. Yet....despite all that....despite the fact that the guy was already playing his 4th CHL year.....I called his play extremely dissapointed and he HAD to get right back on track as soon as this year 'cause if not...he would not have gotten a contract.....Well seems that he is playing great. Trade was awesome. So Thrower never busted.....but he was incredibly dissapointing. As far Big Mac, I think we were expecting a little more. I know I was expecting to see him on at least PP2. And be more relevant than he is. But he might come out soon. Sooner than we think. And if not, well next year will be key. And he will surely turn it around.
Really well said.

So many people thought Tinordi was a brutal draft choice at the time too, it wasn't until his last year in London (esp the Mem. Cup) and pretty well last season in the AHL/NHL that the masses started to actually appreciate the potential there.

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11-24-2013, 10:47 AM
  #403
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Hey guys, don't you think everything has been said about McCaron? Geez, I come here to read about our prospect pool and what I see is a thread that has turn into a Mike McCaron one for weeks...

I'm sorry... I know I'm not a mod, but nothing new can be brought to the table about him. Let him play a whole season and then, maybe we'll be able to make a real opinion on him but mostly... maybe we'll have some new stuff to talk about.

So... how our NCAA guys has been doing lately?!

Thanks

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11-24-2013, 10:52 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
I remember us debating Mantha predraft.... your hate-on for him is irrational.

The guy is DOMINATING the Q right now, he's pretty much scoring a goal every game. And did you see his goals during the QMJHL/Russia series? Both were in tight, goals goal scorers score at the next level. He's going to be a french Vanek/Nash hybrid, a #1 sniping winger with size. How would he not be a perfect fit here?

And I don't really care if he's from the Q or not, I'm an anglo in Toronto, but it does add to his marketability if he were apart of this franchise.
There's plenty of players who score at the junior level. Corey Locke dominated the OHL, but where is he now? Mantha can score, we know this.. Never once has any one debated that he has a goal scorers touch and a nice frame. However, the physicality, the fire, it's not there and we are trying to build a team that can score in the play-offs. You don't trade up for a guy who's question marks are desire, physical play and whether or not his game translates.

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11-24-2013, 11:48 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
There's plenty of players who score at the junior level. Corey Locke dominated the OHL, but where is he now? Mantha can score, we know this.. Never once has any one debated that he has a goal scorers touch and a nice frame. However, the physicality, the fire, it's not there and we are trying to build a team that can score in the play-offs. You don't trade up for a guy who's question marks are desire, physical play and whether or not his game translates.
Locke has nothing in common with Mantha other than gaudy offensive numbers in junior. Locke was small, slow and has an average shot. Mantha is basically everything that Locke wished he was. To score in the playoff, you need to be able to score at all to begin with. But do you draft a guy who's question marks are: can he score goals and put points ? Mantha has those questions answered. There's a kind of maslow's pyramid of abilities to make the NHL and skating, stickhandling, shooting are lower than "grit", "heart", "character" and what have you.

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11-24-2013, 12:18 PM
  #406
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Is Mark Macmillan injured ?

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Old
11-24-2013, 12:58 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
Locke has nothing in common with Mantha other than gaudy offensive numbers in junior. Locke was small, slow and has an average shot. Mantha is basically everything that Locke wished he was. To score in the playoff, you need to be able to score at all to begin with. But do you draft a guy who's question marks are: can he score goals and put points ? Mantha has those questions answered. There's a kind of maslow's pyramid of abilities to make the NHL and skating, stickhandling, shooting are lower than "grit", "heart", "character" and what have you.
The Habs went out and drafted a player that has the potential to fight, bang bodies, be intimidating on the cycle and forecheck, and also put in the dirty goals. Mantha is a pure goal scorer.. which we have an abundance of goal scoring and offensive talent in the system with Lehkonen, Reway, Andrighetto, Collberg, Hudon etc. We needed to get some players with some different complexions to their game in order to build a line-up that has a bit of everything.

McCarron and De La Rose were selections to bring a full complement of skills to the team. Lehkonen is showing to be a legit goal scorer and is doing it against men, something Mantha has yet to do.

We'll talk about it in 5 years. I remember the Perron vs. Pacioretty debate.. I remember the flak I got for saying Esposito wouldn't be in the league at 22.

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11-24-2013, 01:29 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
The Habs went out and drafted a player that has the potential to fight, bang bodies, be intimidating on the cycle and forecheck, and also put in the dirty goals. Mantha is a pure goal scorer.. which we have an abundance of goal scoring and offensive talent in the system with Lehkonen, Reway, Andrighetto, Collberg, Hudon etc. We needed to get some players with some different complexions to their game in order to build a line-up that has a bit of everything.

McCarron and De La Rose were selections to bring a full complement of skills to the team. Lehkonen is showing to be a legit goal scorer and is doing it against men, something Mantha has yet to do.

We'll talk about it in 5 years. I remember the Perron vs. Pacioretty debate.. I remember the flak I got for saying Esposito wouldn't be in the league at 22.
Yup. There's a reason why a 6'4 50 goal scoring winger only went 20th overall. If we just look at stats he should have been a Top 5 pick.

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11-24-2013, 01:49 PM
  #409
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Is Mark Macmillan injured ?
Yes, I have read somewhere that he is.

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Old
11-24-2013, 05:19 PM
  #410
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Really well said.

So many people thought Tinordi was a brutal draft choice at the time too, it wasn't until his last year in London (esp the Mem. Cup) and pretty well last season in the AHL/NHL that the masses started to actually appreciate the potential there.
Honestly you just have to be patient and not jump to conclusions, UNLESS a player disappoint immediately and never seems to figure it out.

The one player that really sticks out for me in recent years who was like that was David Fischer. Everyone kept giving him more time, but all the warning signs were there that he wasn't getting it. He was supposed to be a puck moving d-man that created some semblance offence. He never did. He was supposed to be a leader-type. He never was.

In the cases of Thrower, McCarron and Tinordi, they have all shown at some point since being drafted that they have what it takes to make it to the NHL. People that gave up on Thrower after 1 year, when he was not even 19-years-old, were, i'm sorry, dumb. You're allowed to have an off year when you're an 18-year-old defensman. It happens. The only thing i was worried about in the last year with him, is if he was mentally strong enough to be a good pro, and i'm still a little worried. But to think think that he had somehow lost all of his skill and grit was a joke to me.

The same now goes for McCarron. You saw him in camp, you saw how he held his own. How can you throw him under the bus after 20 odd games. These players aren't robots, they need an adjustment period, especially when you go from one league that was played in more tight quarters to an up-and-down league like the OHL.

Tinordi always showed the kind of defensive acumen and leadership qualities in his time in London that he was not going to be a bust. I think our problem on these boards is that we pay attention to each game these juniors play like they're pros. That's the wrong way to go, imo. Like with Fischer, you can just tell when a player doesn't have it. With these three, unless they'll go through a mental breakdown, you can tell that they got it. They're all competitive guys with enough grit and skill to be make it in the NHL.

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11-24-2013, 06:33 PM
  #411
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MacMillan is injured but for some reason it's undisclosed by UND.

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11-24-2013, 06:54 PM
  #412
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Reway held pointless for the first time in a while. He still had 10 shots in the game, by far the most of anyone on his team.

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11-24-2013, 07:02 PM
  #413
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Reway held pointless for the first time in a while. He still had 10 shots in the game, by far the most of anyone on his team.
He was pretty terrible today. Turnover machine, lost defensively... Made a post about him in his prospect thread.

His 10 shots weren't indicative of his play. A chunk of those shots were long shots from the blue line trying to gain the zone. They produced nothing and were handled by the goaltender easily.

Reway's a terrific offensive player, but he has a LONG ways to go.

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11-24-2013, 07:14 PM
  #414
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He was pretty terrible today. Turnover machine, lost defensively... Made a post about him in his prospect thread.

His 10 shots weren't indicative of his play. A chunk of those shots were long shots from the blue line trying to gain the zone. They produced nothing and were handled by the goaltender easily.

Reway's a terrific offensive player, but he has a LONG ways to go.
Yeah he is a project give him his full CHL then 1-2 years in hamilton.... since he isnt russian I dont think he would leave after 1 ahl year...no rush Hudon or Andrighetto will be promote before him if ever.

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11-24-2013, 07:20 PM
  #415
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He was pretty terrible today. Turnover machine, lost defensively... Made a post about him in his prospect thread.

His 10 shots weren't indicative of his play. A chunk of those shots were long shots from the blue line trying to gain the zone. They produced nothing and were handled by the goaltender easily.

Reway's a terrific offensive player, but he has a LONG ways to go.
Yup, he's definately a high risk, high reward player (although can you say high risk for a 4th round pick).

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Old
11-25-2013, 08:43 AM
  #416
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
The Habs went out and drafted a player that has the potential to fight, bang bodies, be intimidating on the cycle and forecheck, and also put in the dirty goals. Mantha is a pure goal scorer.. which we have an abundance of goal scoring and offensive talent in the system with Lehkonen, Reway, Andrighetto, Collberg, Hudon etc. We needed to get some players with some different complexions to their game in order to build a line-up that has a bit of everything.

McCarron and De La Rose were selections to bring a full complement of skills to the team. Lehkonen is showing to be a legit goal scorer and is doing it against men, something Mantha has yet to do.

We'll talk about it in 5 years. I remember the Perron vs. Pacioretty debate.. I remember the flak I got for saying Esposito wouldn't be in the league at 22.
As much as McCarron was a need, you know what else is a need? A stud 1st line goal scoring winger. In case you haven't noticed, our offense is our biggest weakness.

And there is NOONE in the system who fits Manthas profile. And he does score the dirty goals. Go watch his two goals against Russia last week.

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11-25-2013, 11:17 AM
  #417
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
As much as McCarron was a need, you know what else is a need? A stud 1st line goal scoring winger. In case you haven't noticed, our offense is our biggest weakness.

And there is NOONE in the system who fits Manthas profile. And he does score the dirty goals. Go watch his two goals against Russia last week.
We will see

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11-25-2013, 12:24 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
As much as McCarron was a need, you know what else is a need? A stud 1st line goal scoring winger. In case you haven't noticed, our offense is our biggest weakness.

And there is NOONE in the system who fits Manthas profile. And he does score the dirty goals. Go watch his two goals against Russia last week.
Nothing against you, but this is the ultimate bandwagon post, the kind of post you only see on the Habs board. Prior to the draft, most people wanted a "powerforward" able to chip in too. So people wanted Timmins to pick either Zykov, Rychel or Hartman. But most importantly, the unanimous consent was that Timmons should not draft Mantha!

Mantha was supposed to be soft, a Michael Ryder kind of player at best!

Now that Mantha is tearing up the Q, we need a pure goal scorer and Mantha scores goals in the dirty area!

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11-25-2013, 12:26 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
As much as McCarron was a need, you know what else is a need? A stud 1st line goal scoring winger. In case you haven't noticed, our offense is our biggest weakness.

And there is NOONE in the system who fits Manthas profile. And he does score the dirty goals. Go watch his two goals against Russia last week.
That's true. Every potential scoring project in this team is pretty small and not that physical. Though, I have no problem with Collberg's size....and you hope that a De la Rose for example would improve his scoring touch. The rest of them.....in Hamilton, our biggest real offensive threats are Andrighetto and Thomas. The rest it's Reway, Lekhonen and Bozon...who else? Grégoire could surprise and be a Bournival. I don't see Hudon being top 6. The rest is for the bottom 6.

At that spot, if Mantha would have been available, for me, it was a no-brainer. You pick him....and you work with him. There is some possibility that he ends up being a Keven Veilleux....but maybe not. But there is some possibility that Big Mac doesn't flourish either. As great as last year's draft was, end of 1st...there are questions marks. I'd take a big real pure threat scoring forward any day of the week.

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11-25-2013, 12:27 PM
  #420
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Nothing against you, but this is the ultimate bandwagon post, the kind of post you only see on the Habs board. Prior to the draft, most people wanted a "powerforward" able to chip in too. So people wanted Timmins to pick either Zykov, Rychel or Hartman. But most importantly, the unanimous consent was that Timmons should not draft Mantha!

Mantha was supposed to be soft, a Michael Ryder kind of player at best!

Now that Mantha is tearing up the Q, we need a pure goal scorer and Mantha scores goals in the dirty area!
How about you use the search feature and check my posts on Mantha predraft. That way you won't look like such an idiot.

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11-25-2013, 01:37 PM
  #421
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That's true. Every potential scoring project in this team is pretty small and not that physical. Though, I have no problem with Collberg's size....and you hope that a De la Rose for example would improve his scoring touch. The rest of them.....in Hamilton, our biggest real offensive threats are Andrighetto and Thomas. The rest it's Reway, Lekhonen and Bozon...who else? Grégoire could surprise and be a Bournival. I don't see Hudon being top 6. The rest is for the bottom 6.

At that spot, if Mantha would have been available, for me, it was a no-brainer. You pick him....and you work with him. There is some possibility that he ends up being a Keven Veilleux....but maybe not. But there is some possibility that Big Mac doesn't flourish either. As great as last year's draft was, end of 1st...there are questions marks. I'd take a big real pure threat scoring forward any day of the week.
Considering where we drafted last year, i dont see what the big fuss is. We drafted high in 2012 and got Galchenyuk. It's still possible that he becomes a true scoring threat alongside Eller. If the organization doesnt consider Patches to be a true 1st line winger that has all-star potential, then he becomes our biggest trade bait to get an all-star winger. As far as players in the system goes, we havent necessarily had many opportunities to draft some serious blue chippers lately. Sure we could have drafted bigger wingers instead of the like of Collberg, Bozon, Hudon, etc., but their is no guarantees they would have been better. We also tend to forget that Hudon is a 5th rounder. I guess we could have drafted Erne instead of De La Rose, but i still got a pretty good feeling about DLR.

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11-25-2013, 02:38 PM
  #422
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Nothing against you, but this is the ultimate bandwagon post, the kind of post you only see on the Habs board. Prior to the draft, most people wanted a "powerforward" able to chip in too. So people wanted Timmins to pick either Zykov, Rychel or Hartman. But most importantly, the unanimous consent was that Timmons should not draft Mantha!

Mantha was supposed to be soft, a Michael Ryder kind of player at best!

Now that Mantha is tearing up the Q, we need a pure goal scorer and Mantha scores goals in the dirty area!
"Now" that he's tearing up the Q? He tore up the q last year too..this is not a shock that he's producing in his final junior season as a 19-year-old.

Mantha still doesn't score goals in the dirty areas very often. An impressive super series game playing on a line with a junior superstar against teenage Russian defenders is a far cry from the NHL.

Time will tell how well he fares in the NHL. but it's a moot point. He was picked before the Habs selected, so it is irrelevant.

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11-25-2013, 03:26 PM
  #423
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"Now" that he's tearing up the Q? He tore up the q last year too..this is not a shock that he's producing in his final junior season as a 19-year-old.

Mantha still doesn't score goals in the dirty areas very often. An impressive super series game playing on a line with a junior superstar against teenage Russian defenders is a far cry from the NHL.

Time will tell how well he fares in the NHL. but it's a moot point. He was picked before the Habs selected, so it is irrelevant.
Just wondering if you know anything about what Jankowski thought of him last year at the draft? I'm still not sure how much Mantha fits into Canada's plan, if at all.

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11-25-2013, 03:30 PM
  #424
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"Now" that he's tearing up the Q? He tore up the q last year too..this is not a shock that he's producing in his final junior season as a 19-year-old.

Mantha still doesn't score goals in the dirty areas very often. An impressive super series game playing on a line with a junior superstar against teenage Russian defenders is a far cry from the NHL.

Time will tell how well he fares in the NHL. but it's a moot point. He was picked before the Habs selected, so it is irrelevant.
It's not just an impressive Super Series, it's been impressive stretch of nearly 2 years.

And while he was picked before the habs, we should have traded up. We had the firepower and we missed out on the strength of the draft. (Assuming Zykov fell for a reason)

Who knows what it would have cost, but I'm sure moving up 7 spots wouldn't have cost us much more than 25 and 36. Even if we had to add a 3rd rounder it still would have been worth it, and we still would have had extra picks...

It's not that I don't like McCarron, and that I don't hope he succeeds, I just strongly felt he wasn't worth a 1st rounder.

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11-25-2013, 04:28 PM
  #425
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I've hardly seen Mantha or McCarron. Less than half a dozen times each, and only McCarron live. I'd take Mantha over McCarron right now. Though I still like McCarron well enough.


I guess what I'm really saying is I don't see why it's such a big deal if we draft/prospect fans have an opinion. At any point along the development curve, really. Most of us have been sitting in the armchair long enough to have a pretty good perspective on just how much those opinions are worth. But it would be kind of boring if we just opted to defer to the experts or scouts or GMs instead of expressing those opinions here.

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