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Old
11-24-2013, 04:29 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
The risk of injury to key players will be reduced, less dirty hits.

And we dont have to look like a bunch of sissys getting owned, like last night with Boyle and Dorsett.

But hey...where's that tough dude fans talk so much about, eh...Kreider?
John Scott was so scared of the big bad Bruins when he concussed Loui Eriksson.

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11-24-2013, 06:01 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by RangersHank View Post
And what happens when we have all these big tough guys that everyone wants and Nash or Stepan still get hit up high? You think anybody cares that there will be payback? What NHL teams really get scared anyway?

not lookin for big tough guys, guys like horton, marchand, krechi... these guys are tough and have some ability, we have no one on this team like em

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11-24-2013, 06:02 PM
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
The risk of injury to key players will be reduced, less dirty hits.

And we dont have to look like a bunch of sissys getting owned, like last night with Boyle and Dorsett.

But hey...where's that tough dude fans talk so much about, eh...Kreider?
Yeah having big scary Lucic stopped John Scott from hitting Eriksson.

Having big scary Rupp stopped Taylor Hall from kneeing Cal Clutterbuck right?

Big scary enforcers don't prevent anything.

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11-24-2013, 06:03 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Pastafazul View Post
not lookin for big tough guys, guys like horton, marchand, krechi... these guys are tough and have some ability, we have no one on this team like em
In what world are Krejci and Marchand tough? Horton's one concussion away from calling it a career. I don't want these guys on our team.

Well I'd like Marchand but not for his "toughness"

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11-24-2013, 06:22 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Pastafazul View Post
not lookin for big tough guys, guys like horton, marchand, krechi... these guys are tough and have some ability, we have no one on this team like em

This for about 30 out of the 40 years I have been watching them

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11-24-2013, 06:42 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Pastafazul View Post
not lookin for big tough guys, guys like horton, marchand, krechi... these guys are tough and have some ability, we have no one on this team like em
Krecji, Marchand and Horton are not really tough guys. Marchand is Avery lite--only a better player but he's kind of small and he doesn't really fight as much as Avery use to.

Guys who can actually fight well and play are very hard to find. These are the guys you're looking at--untouchables--Lucic, Beauchemin, Chara. And then there are Chris Stewart, Neil, Simmonds, Evander Kane, Matt Martin, McQuaid, Clarkson--a couple kids--Zack Kassian, Tom Wilson. Some decent bottom 6 and bottom pairing d players--Engelland, Thornton, Bollig, Mark Fraser, Prust, Roussel, Nystrom (who loses a lot), Glass, McCormick, Oleksy and that's about it unless you're looking for can't play for **** goons like McGrattan, Orr, Scott, Bordeleau, Boulton, Janssen etc. They're a dying breed because they add very little to the effectiveness of their teams.

Note--some of the above who can play--don't fight a lot. Some of the above also make more $ than they're really worth.

I'm all for the Rangers getting tougher but there's not a hell of a lot out there that's really worthwhile. Want to trade Del Zotto and get Zack Kassian + back I'm all for it. But the reality right now is the Rangers are doing okay--playing a lot better anyway--with what they have. Patiently waiting for the day McIlrath is ready.

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11-24-2013, 07:00 PM
  #532
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guys, i'm not lookin for goons, fighters, studs from other teams... lets be realistic!

i'm lookin for guys who can hold their own, guys that have some nasty, guys who have some abilities..... most of our players get thrown around like rag dolls on the ice... who's gonna guard that wall, you weinberg!!!!!

yea for now we could get away with this in reg season, come PS we will be embarrassed with what we have...

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11-24-2013, 07:11 PM
  #533
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I know!
Let's sign Clowe!

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11-24-2013, 07:34 PM
  #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
The risk of injury to key players will be reduced, less dirty hits.

And we dont have to look like a bunch of sissys getting owned, like last night with Boyle and Dorsett.

But hey...where's that tough dude fans talk so much about, eh...Kreider?
Using his strength and toughness in ways that are useful in the modern game is where he is.

Fighting is dying. Call it good or bad, but it's reality. Useful fighting is almost dead. Players take liberties with the stars on "tough" teams just as often as "soft" teams. And with the way fighting works today, I can't imagine that anybody is honestly scared about the prospect. Someone challenges you, you refuse, or they drop them anyway and you turtle. If they keep going crazy on you, they're looking at a huge fine and/or suspension.

A lethal PP is exponentially more useful as a reaction to dirty hits, if not a deterrent. Someone takes liberties with your player, you get a long PP, get a couple goals, and the other team loses with the player that took the hit knowing damn well that his coach, and teammates, and fans realize that he just lost them a game. I'd be more scared of that as a marginal player (which those who make those hits often are) than I'd be of having to turtle away from a fight in the worst case scenario.

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11-24-2013, 07:46 PM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastafazul View Post
guys, i'm not lookin for goons, fighters, studs from other teams... lets be realistic!

i'm lookin for guys who can hold their own, guys that have some nasty, guys who have some abilities..... most of our players get thrown around like rag dolls on the ice... who's gonna guard that wall, you weinberg!!!!!

yea for now we could get away with this in reg season, come PS we will be embarrassed with what we have...
Way over this!

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11-24-2013, 07:50 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Krecji, Marchand and Horton are not really tough guys. Marchand is Avery lite--only a better player but he's kind of small and he doesn't really fight as much as Avery use to.

Guys who can actually fight well and play are very hard to find. These are the guys you're looking at--untouchables--Lucic, Beauchemin, Chara. And then there are Chris Stewart, Neil, Simmonds, Evander Kane, Matt Martin, McQuaid, Clarkson--a couple kids--Zack Kassian, Tom Wilson. Some decent bottom 6 and bottom pairing d players--Engelland, Thornton, Bollig, Mark Fraser, Prust, Roussel, Nystrom (who loses a lot), Glass, McCormick, Oleksy and that's about it unless you're looking for can't play for **** goons like McGrattan, Orr, Scott, Bordeleau, Boulton, Janssen etc. They're a dying breed because they add very little to the effectiveness of their teams.

Note--some of the above who can play--don't fight a lot. Some of the above also make more $ than they're really worth.

I'm all for the Rangers getting tougher but there's not a hell of a lot out there that's really worthwhile. Want to trade Del Zotto and get Zack Kassian + back I'm all for it. But the reality right now is the Rangers are doing okay--playing a lot better anyway--with what they have. Patiently waiting for the day McIlrath is ready.
Amen, but he can't do it alone.

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11-24-2013, 09:07 PM
  #537
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Thornton said it, Ovechkin said it, this team is soft. Boston completely outmuscled us last year in the playoffs. There's a misconception around here where people think wanting toughness means you want goons. No, all we want are tough physical guys who can play and fight. I do agree, it's a team mentality but when your team is a bunch of ******* you can't all of a sudden make them tough. Why did the 2011-2012 Rangers do so well? Overall team toughness and a hard work ethic. This team now needs to stop bringing in the Pooalots and the Pyatts and start developing bottom 6 guys who play with a pulse. Boyle's fine on the fourth line, would I like him to play meaner yes but he's fine. Anyway I think that's all I was gonna say

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11-24-2013, 09:17 PM
  #538
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The toughness factor is quickly turned around. It doesn't take much to really change the whole outlook of the team in that regard.

I like Cally and Kreider for that in the top 6. Cally is just Cally, and Kreider is coming into his own. He's big and not backing away from much of anything right now. The bottom 6 could use another, but Boyle and Dorsett don't shy away from anything either, and Moore can hold his ground. On defense we're mostly good, I think, as no one is all that soft. We don't have a big mean crease-clearer, but that could be McIlrath. For now I think Staal, McD and Girardi are fine. They're all strong and willing to use it when needed. I want Prust back. Never wanted him to leave! Top 6 will be harder to find.

In a dream world you get a Lucic or a Kane. In reality there's not much we can do right this moment to address overall toughness, and I'd really prefer they address goal-scoring first. Worry about toughness if we're a lock for the playoffs. Add a rental or make a few lateral moves that improve that department for a deeper run. Like a Clowe sans concussion history, and without giving up too much of the future. We've got some strong kids with the pack, guys who could make the team next year. Not huge tough guys, just guys who seem to be a bit grittier and scrappy than our current line up. We'll see how it plays out.

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11-24-2013, 09:46 PM
  #539
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Why was this thread even bumped? We have a 6 game winning streak going on the road......and no one's really taken liberties with our players since Brouwer's headshot on Stepan.

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11-24-2013, 10:04 PM
  #540
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I'm as big a proponent of having a more tougher team.

That said, it's not having a heavyweight guy that makes a team tough.

It's in the individual players that make teams tough.

Dorsett can get into 30 fights this year, and he can lose EVERY fight he is in I DO NOT CARE ABOUT WINS AND LOSSES WHEN IT COMES TO FIGHTING.

the win/loss record of NHL fights are meaningless.

The bottom line about being a tough team is not whether you win a fight or lose a fight. It's about having a mindset that you are not going to allow an opponent to take liberties with your teammates and that means if Zuccs gets hammered, I EXPECT Kreider to address that issue ASAP.

If Brassard gets run, then I EXPECT Pouliot or one of his line-mates to address that issue.

You guys have to get off the winning and losing of fights having any sort of meaning. They don't.

The message is sent in sticking up for your teammates, win, lose or draw.

Relying on one guy, be that guy Dorsett or Colton Orr or Georges Laraque is doing a disservice to those guys.

Team toughness is exactly that, TEAM TOUGHNESS

We don't need guys to do that job. We need the guys WE HAVE to grow a set of balls and take certain matters into their own hands when things get heated.

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Old
11-24-2013, 10:25 PM
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
Thornton said it, Ovechkin said it, this team is soft. Boston completely outmuscled us last year in the playoffs. There's a misconception around here where people think wanting toughness means you want goons. No, all we want are tough physical guys who can play and fight. I do agree, it's a team mentality but when your team is a bunch of ******* you can't all of a sudden make them tough. Why did the 2011-2012 Rangers do so well? Overall team toughness and a hard work ethic. This team now needs to stop bringing in the Pooalots and the Pyatts and start developing bottom 6 guys who play with a pulse. Boyle's fine on the fourth line, would I like him to play meaner yes but he's fine. Anyway I think that's all I was gonna say
Thornton said it about the 11-12 team that you're using as an example of a tough Rangers team.

OV's comment was about how soft a Rangers team was right before that team ended up eliminating his team from the playoffs.

Boston out everything'd the Rangers. They were a better team all around. Torts' strategy was exposed in that series worse than it had ever been before.

The team could and probably should be harder to play against, but those comments mean nothing and the Boston series had little to do with team toughness and everything to do with rigidly sticking to a failing game plan.

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11-25-2013, 07:46 AM
  #542
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I still consider this an issue and have been saying so for over a year now. I don't want this team to employ a heavyweight. What I want is 2-3 guys who can drop the gloves if they feel someone has taken a liberty on one of their players.

The funny thing is, teams with 2-3 of those players seem to employ more of a Pack mentality where anyone is willing to do it not because they have the skill, but because they see their teammates giving 110% effort and doing all they can to fight for eachother. The Rangers of a few years ago had this. Players played bigger than they were. They were hard to play against because they didn't take anything from anyone. It was going to be a battle any night any team played the Rangers.

I'll let it slide for now, but to me, it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

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11-25-2013, 08:12 AM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I still consider this an issue and have been saying so for over a year now. I don't want this team to employ a heavyweight. What I want is 2-3 guys who can drop the gloves if they feel someone has taken a liberty on one of their players.

The funny thing is, teams with 2-3 of those players seem to employ more of a Pack mentality where anyone is willing to do it not because they have the skill, but because they see their teammates giving 110% effort and doing all they can to fight for eachother. The Rangers of a few years ago had this. Players played bigger than they were. They were hard to play against because they didn't take anything from anyone. It was going to be a battle any night any team played the Rangers.

I'll let it slide for now, but to me, it's an issue that needs to be addressed.
Fwiw, I too still agree 100%. And it's pretty easy to say "lol what toughness issue" in November. If the Rangers can continue to dictate the pace, forecheck, and score garbage goals down the stretch and in the POsi for one may rethink my stance.

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11-25-2013, 08:13 AM
  #544
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Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
John Scott was so scared of the big bad Bruins when he concussed Loui Eriksson.
And yet the "we need moar thugs!" crowd will continue to avoid this point and act like people would never run our players if we had Colton Orr back on the bench.

The game has evolved. I wish the fans would as well.

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11-25-2013, 08:36 AM
  #545
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And yet the "we need moar thugs!" crowd will continue to avoid this point and act like people would never run our players if we had Colton Orr back on the bench.

The game has evolved. I wish the fans would as well.
I haven't seen pretty much anyone advocate for John Scott or Colton Orr though.

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11-25-2013, 08:37 AM
  #546
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And yet the "we need moar thugs!" crowd will continue to avoid this point and act like people would never run our players if we had Colton Orr back on the bench.

The game has evolved. I wish the fans would as well.
Yup,

My favorite is how people bring up the Drury hit in Calgary, or the Carcillo assault on Gaborik as examples - things that happened 3-4 years ago.

These people need to watch more hockey. Every team in the league has 1 or 2 examples per season where there is an incident perpetrated against their players. Its not just confined to the Rangers. Putting a goon out there that cant skate and cant play the game not only hurts the team, but it isnt a deterrent.

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11-25-2013, 08:58 AM
  #547
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I haven't seen pretty much anyone advocate for John Scott or Colton Orr though.
Some have.

I know the type of players you are advocating -- they are tough to come by. The Rangers havent developed one in my 25 years as a fan and counting.

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11-25-2013, 09:07 AM
  #548
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I haven't seen pretty much anyone advocate for John Scott or Colton Orr though.
Many people have advocated that any number of goons will solve our problems. I agree with your take that we could use another guy who could scrap, and you and I agree on some names of who those players could be, but too many people want to add players who are completely useless for anything other than pummeling each other.

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11-25-2013, 09:14 AM
  #549
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At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the inability to draft tough, aggressive and physical third and fourth line players plays a big factor here.

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11-25-2013, 09:24 AM
  #550
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Many people have advocated that any number of goons will solve our problems. I agree with your take that we could use another guy who could scrap, and you and I agree on some names of who those players could be, but too many people want to add players who are completely useless for anything other than pummeling each other.
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Some have.

I know the type of players you are advocating -- they are tough to come by. The Rangers havent developed one in my 25 years as a fan and counting.
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At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the inability to draft tough, aggressive and physical third and fourth line players plays a big factor here.
Seems like great minds think alike

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