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Old
11-21-2013, 10:09 AM
  #51
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"Just try it/Look at one example" =/= Fitness science

It is not an opinion. It's a fact.

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11-21-2013, 10:11 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
That is not a fact. That is an opinion.
I wont argue with you. Just try it sometime.

Also look at Will Johnson Crossfit video on Youtube.
Great story
Do you realize you are pretty much confirming the "cultish" stereotype in everyone's mind? The more you post, the more I wonder whether CF is right for any serious adult. Let it go, man. Some people think your gym is silly. The world will go on.

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11-21-2013, 11:14 AM
  #53
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Why cant you? I do it. Hundreds of others do it. Some people get hurt out of ignorance to their recovery or form and bad teachings and now the entire philosophy goes under?
Why can't (shouldn't) you? Because it's SCIENCE. As you continue to tire your body, you break down both mentally and physically. We're on a hockey message board, so here's a good example - why do you think mistakes and bad passes are more prone to happen in the 3rd period of a game than the 1st? Or at the end of a shift compared to the beginning of a shift? Because of physical and mental fatigue. Throwing something into a circuit that has bad consequences when your form breaks down, like deadlifts, is just a HORRIBLE idea.

And by the way I used to do some Crossfit workouts. And still occasionally do the "Murph". It has some good principles, but I'm vehemently against telling people to do compound lifts against the clock. It's just flat out dangerous and asking for form to break down.

And at the boastful "185 is nothing" statement, as if that's supposed to be impressive. The point was, doing that at 185 lbs against the clock is a mind-numbingly bad idea.

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11-21-2013, 11:25 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
? The beauty of crossfit is the cross-training aspect. One day you do gymnastics, one day you WL, one day you do both. It attacks all differ muscles so your not overloading one part of your body.

With proper recovery and rest and hydration... you can def do it

There are people who do. Just like people who play hockey everyday or run marathons every other week. And run everyday...

If you dont want to... its fine. Dont say you cant. I see it already
Save your kool-aid for somebody else. I'm the one giving out facts here- about how CF is implemented in and how it affects a professional organization that is built around high levels of fitness.

That being said, I don't have a problem with most CF exercises- and in fact think a majority of them are beneficial. It is the 20% or so of them that when executed as rapidly as possible by guys who are focused more on competing with their fellow participants than what their body can handle that causes the injuries. It is the cult like mentality and the uber-competitiveness that causes the problems. Getting to and maintaining a peak level of fitness is not a competition.

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11-21-2013, 11:29 AM
  #55
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I have mixed feelings about cross-fit. I have seen some places that are coached very well and everyone only progresses when form is perfect. On the flip side I have seen some disasters where someone is doing a clean, extending in their back and you can tell they are a pull or push away from blowing a disk in their back. Cross-Fit has such a wide range of its good and bad that its tough to generalize it saying that its awesome or awful.

When training you need to have phases where you are setting yourself up to be successful. You need to build a base and then start adding the building blocks to that. If you are building a house you have to dig a hole, pour the concrete and then you start to build the house on top. Our bodies are essentially the same, build a strong base so that your body can functionally stabilize the weight that you start to push around.

Ciao,
TD
I dont do crossfit personally but I have done some of the exercises.

You mention good and bad coaching but this is no different than any other activity including hockey. Many a guy has been injured because of poor coaching in practices.

Also our bodies are not really like houses. Our bodies are capable of adapting. For thousands of years and really up until recently people did not have the luxury of "building a base". They bailed that hay or hunted that lion or they didnt make it. People lived.

Id say more of our injury problems are due to sedentary lifestyles and mixed in with occassional boughts of exercising.

This is were I see a lot of the crossfit issues coming from. People overextending themselves.

The interesting thing is reading about how the soviets ran their sports programs it wasnt all that different than what we now call crossfit. In fact a lot of the exercises are adopted from them.

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11-21-2013, 11:36 AM
  #56
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Do you realize you are pretty much confirming the "cultish" stereotype in everyone's mind? The more you post, the more I wonder whether CF is right for any serious adult. Let it go, man. Some people think your gym is silly. The world will go on.
Agreed.

I've generally felt that people attacking Crossfit in this thread have been unjustified in their attacks. But Thesensation19 has been giving them more and more fodder.

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11-21-2013, 11:38 AM
  #57
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Why can't (shouldn't) you? Because it's SCIENCE. As you continue to tire your body, you break down both mentally and physically. We're on a hockey message board, so here's a good example - why do you think mistakes and bad passes are more prone to happen in the 3rd period of a game than the 1st? Or at the end of a shift compared to the beginning of a shift? Because of physical and mental fatigue. Throwing something into a circuit that has bad consequences when your form breaks down, like deadlifts, is just a HORRIBLE idea.

And by the way I used to do some Crossfit workouts. And still occasionally do the "Murph". It has some good principles, but I'm vehemently against telling people to do compound lifts against the clock. It's just flat out dangerous and asking for form to break down.
Really? Is that the basis of Crossfit, doing as much as you can in 20 minutes?

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11-21-2013, 12:09 PM
  #58
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Really? Is that the basis of Crossfit, doing as much as you can in 20 minutes?
lol no. That was an example. But it is safe to say that the basis of Crossfit is doing everything against the clock. If it's not doing "as many rounds as possible in __ mins", it's "X amount of rounds for time" (see how fast you can do X rounds), or "Do this workout, post your time <list of 4-5 exercises/tasks>"

They take a bunch of already established workout philosophies (circuit training, interval training, power lifting, etc), throw them all together, teach them in a group environment, and have people post their times to a "leader board". And promote an environment that encourages people to compete against the clock to get better.

That type of group fitness in itself is a good idea. The friendly, group-themed environment, and the competitive drive to improve yourself against prior times (or get on the leader board). I'm very into fitness, and an environment like that, that gets people consistently going to the gym and getting themselves in better shape...is awesome. But throwing compound lifts into that philosophy is very dangerous. And why I hate Crossfit.

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11-21-2013, 12:23 PM
  #59
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Halfway into the deployment- they looked like Greek Gods. At the end of the deployment, 1/3 of them needed surgery due to CF related injuries. And the medic had a prolapsed rectum. Not sure if that had anything to do with CF. I had severe tendinitis in both my elbows, and I only CF'd a couple of days a week with them. Probably due more to regular freeweights. And I'm old, so there's that.
I agree with a lot of what you said, just wanted to say that the bolded made me seriously lol.

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11-21-2013, 12:34 PM
  #60
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Agreed.

I've generally felt that people attacking Crossfit in this thread have been unjustified in their attacks. But Thesensation19 has been giving them more and more fodder.
Idc if its Crossfit or Average Joes Gym.
Its not the brand name or the company or the popularity of it that I like.

Its the training I love. The same training I have studied for years that the Soviet Union did to prepare for hockey and their 40 years of domination.

Now theres actually a company out there that is making it popular and people lose their mind.

Its fine, idc if you like it or not. I like it and I dont even buy its membership. I just do the work outs and reap the benefits. I have no back issues, no hip issues. No need to see a PT and ive been doing stuff like this for years.

Might have to do with something called form and patience. I wont do a load I know I cant do once, let alone try it 10x.

But thats not crossfit. Thats anyone. People have to realize that.

I see people all the time in my gym try to squat and bench and there form is horrible. There not doing it for 20 minutes or for rounds.

They do their boring 3 reps, 10 sets of a machine or lift and then switch it up.

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11-21-2013, 12:36 PM
  #61
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Real simple. Look up Soviet Union Hockey training from the 70s. You will notice how its extremely like the modern day hockey training that elite hockey players live by... You will notice its extremely like Crossfit.

Idc if its Crossfit or Insansity or p90x or some other BS company... Its all useful for hockey especially over using dumbells with most of your workout routine

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11-21-2013, 12:42 PM
  #62
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When people walk themselves into a gym and "teach" themselves what to do, incorrectly, that's their own dumbass fault if they get hurt because they didn't ever learn any better. If one follows a routine - ANY routine - that has a mindset to push yourself to always beat numbers/time or race with compound/explosive lifts, that's only lending to the injury risk.

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11-21-2013, 12:44 PM
  #63
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http://games.crossfit.com/article/fo...nton-opens-box

Interesting read

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11-21-2013, 12:55 PM
  #64
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Ive pretty much said all I can so Im done here but one final word I guess:

It seems like most of you just do not understand that the things done in Crossfit that you all fear are used by everyday athletes everyday in todays world. NHL players, NFL, NBA MLS. Whatever. Some actually join Crossfit or have CF trainers. Others do workouts which look a lot like it but its not called Crossfit.

I am not sticking up for CF per say. CF just happens to be the first company to popularize the type of work outs called Met Cons and functional movement based exercises.

So its up to you to do whatever you want but I believe and will always believe based on my own personal experiences and what I see others accomplish when done right...

That metabolic conditioning is not for the weak. And that if you want to improve efficiently, you have to break the barrier. Soviet Union athletes proved it, modern day athletes are stealing the methods.

So any company that endorses these type of work outs along with the best nutritional advice and stretching techniques is fine by me.

You should just give it a try. What are you afraid of? Doing 100 pulls ups? Even if you do 50, and you cant go one more... you broke your limit. You improved. Dont give up. Just do it

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11-21-2013, 01:02 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ozz View Post
When people walk themselves into a gym and "teach" themselves what to do, incorrectly, that's their own dumbass fault if they get hurt because they didn't ever learn any better. If one follows a routine - ANY routine - that has a mindset to push yourself to always beat numbers/time or race with compound/explosive lifts, that's only lending to the injury risk.
Okay I lied. Last comment cuz I saw this upon my last comment submission.

You do realize they have Crossfit classes. Introduction classes that spend time to teach you how to do a pull up, a squat and dip a wall ball. There are various classes to explain all this.

U dont just go into a gym and then hit the clock and do what you do for 20 minutes.


You have to take certain classes and then if you wish to work on certain movements then you can go to open gym classes or specified classes further.

The whole argument that its easy to become a certified trainer is irrelevant. Because I know trainers at LA fitness with degrees in fancy science and bio and fitness fields and they dont know much on movement, flexibility or nutrition.

People with degrees means they spent a lot of time in a classroom learning theories. Doesnt mean they listened or did it properly. Like any other degree.

I know some Crossfit certified trainers who are way more experienced in the world of nutrition than doctors are, and more experienced in the world of weight lifting than a trainer at your local gym. (who you might have to pay a bundle to get his time)

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11-21-2013, 01:07 PM
  #66
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I understand that, my point is that any routine that touts pushing the envelope/beating the clock/beating your records or whatever is just ripe for people bringing problems upon themselves because of it. Anyone who is bright enough to know when to back off, they're not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the same people who think as long as they can move weights, bad form or otherwise, it's all good.

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11-21-2013, 01:15 PM
  #67
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Heavily qualified in the field of exercise physiology ( in case it's needed), former NHL'er Scott Thornton opens up new gym that allows him to charge ridiculous prices for a gym, make good profits, and speaks glowingly of the philosophy he's trying to make money off of.

YA DON'T SAY

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11-21-2013, 01:40 PM
  #68
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That is upsetting. I would suggest you first fix the issue in your knee. With massages, ice packs, walks and proper rest.

More importantly is improving the flexibility of your knee, ankle and hips. Something so overlooked.

Then strengthen the muscles of your knee and quads.

Thats when you do lunges and squats. People get scared that squats is not good for bad knees. A proper squat. An ideal one. Is not one in which will do anything bad foryour knee. A squat is sitting down. Bad knee form will damage further
I mentioned in an earlier post about "why I will avoid CF" that I have a tendency to train "HARRRDDD AND STUPIDDDD" instead of smart and efficiently if left to my own devices; as a result I screwed up my hip flexors badly years ago, and am only just trying to get them right. It affects me from my lower back to my knees.

If I had to make a guess, that's where my problem comes from. I'm taking it much slower than I used to, waiting for results over the course of months instead of weeks...so hopefully over time everything will be peachy.

Edit:
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I understand that, my point is that any routine that touts pushing the envelope/beating the clock/beating your records or whatever is just ripe for people bringing problems upon themselves because of it. Anyone who is bright enough to know when to back off, they're not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the same people who think as long as they can move weights, bad form or otherwise, it's all good.



That's me. I don't mean to do it. I know it's bad. I will generally go through a workout now and stop when my form begins falling apart or when I've sensed I've done all I can safely do...but occasionally there are times where I just get caught up in it and go too far. I used to do it constantly, so at least I've improved a little.

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Old
11-21-2013, 02:01 PM
  #69
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I dont do crossfit personally but I have done some of the exercises.

You mention good and bad coaching but this is no different than any other activity including hockey. Many a guy has been injured because of poor coaching in practices.

Also our bodies are not really like houses. Our bodies are capable of adapting. For thousands of years and really up until recently people did not have the luxury of "building a base". They bailed that hay or hunted that lion or they didnt make it. People lived.

Id say more of our injury problems are due to sedentary lifestyles and mixed in with occassional boughts of exercising.

This is were I see a lot of the crossfit issues coming from. People overextending themselves.

The interesting thing is reading about how the soviets ran their sports programs it wasnt all that different than what we now call crossfit. In fact a lot of the exercises are adopted from them.
Again, this is personal opinion of mine and I agree athletes can get hurt anywhere, even walking down the stairs at their own home.

The good or bad coaching I refer to is letting an athlete load themselves up with 100+ pounds and performing a clean when they can't functionally do a body weight squat - I have seen it happening. That does not go to say their isn't some bad coaching in hockey or any other sport but the topic we are talking about here is CrossFit. I have seen perfectly run Cross Fit facilities but I have also seen my fair share that are not.

Ciao,
TD

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11-21-2013, 03:35 PM
  #70
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I've definitely had a few "That felt close to being a disaster" moments with my knees doing Insanity. No idea how close it actually was because I'm paranoid about knee and ankle stuff.
Beachbody (and amazon) sell a jump matt for that. It is a bit expensive but you may find it usefull

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11-25-2013, 03:35 AM
  #71
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I have mixed feelings about cross-fit. I have seen some places that are coached very well and everyone only progresses when form is perfect. On the flip side I have seen some disasters where someone is doing a clean, extending in their back and you can tell they are a pull or push away from blowing a disk in their back. Cross-Fit has such a wide range of its good and bad that its tough to generalize it saying that its awesome or awful.

When training you need to have phases where you are setting yourself up to be successful. You need to build a base and then start adding the building blocks to that. If you are building a house you have to dig a hole, pour the concrete and then you start to build the house on top. Our bodies are essentially the same, build a strong base so that your body can functionally stabilize the weight that you start to push around.

Ciao,
TD
Good stuff Coach. I'll just add that the reason why I wouldn't advocate CrossFit to hockey players is because the goals and approaches of CrossFit conflict with many goals a hockey player has in their training.

Firstly, training should be structured according to the needs of the athlete, the time of the year (off-season, in-season etc...) and the phase of training (strength, power, conditioning).

Secondly, each phase of training has specific purpose and so regularly shuffling exercises around conflicts with those goals. Players should be trying to push and progress the same lifts and exercises in each phase.

Finally, the goal in sports specific training is to perform the right quantity of each exercise with specific rest intervals. This is true in strength, plyometric and conditioning workouts. Going for high reps or trying to cram reps into a set time is counter-productive for hockey players. You'll get fit but not in a way that's optimal for hockey.

Good on Scott Thornton though — life after hockey for many players means more pizza and beer.

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11-25-2013, 09:01 AM
  #72
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Good stuff Coach. I'll just add that the reason why I wouldn't advocate CrossFit to hockey players is because the goals and approaches of CrossFit conflict with many goals a hockey player has in their training.

Firstly, training should be structured according to the needs of the athlete, the time of the year (off-season, in-season etc...) and the phase of training (strength, power, conditioning).

Secondly, each phase of training has specific purpose and so regularly shuffling exercises around conflicts with those goals. Players should be trying to push and progress the same lifts and exercises in each phase.

Finally, the goal in sports specific training is to perform the right quantity of each exercise with specific rest intervals. This is true in strength, plyometric and conditioning workouts. Going for high reps or trying to cram reps into a set time is counter-productive for hockey players. You'll get fit but not in a way that's optimal for hockey.

Good on Scott Thornton though life after hockey for many players means more pizza and beer.
Couldn't agree more TK.

Hockey players don't have beer and pizza post career do they?

Ciao,
TD

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11-25-2013, 10:55 AM
  #73
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Good stuff Coach. I'll just add that the reason why I wouldn't advocate CrossFit to hockey players is because the goals and approaches of CrossFit conflict with many goals a hockey player has in their training.

Firstly, training should be structured according to the needs of the athlete, the time of the year (off-season, in-season etc...) and the phase of training (strength, power, conditioning).

Secondly, each phase of training has specific purpose and so regularly shuffling exercises around conflicts with those goals. Players should be trying to push and progress the same lifts and exercises in each phase.

Finally, the goal in sports specific training is to perform the right quantity of each exercise with specific rest intervals. This is true in strength, plyometric and conditioning workouts. Going for high reps or trying to cram reps into a set time is counter-productive for hockey players. You'll get fit but not in a way that's optimal for hockey.

Good on Scott Thornton though life after hockey for many players means more pizza and beer.
Phases have more to do with programming to your needs and desires. Crossfit is a tool for general fitness that incorporates different forms of training exercises. Going into a CF class will entitle you a 1 hour session of a warm up, stretch, 20-30 minute WOD, cool down and stretch. Its general. One of the best general classes you can take that will help you efficiently train your body.

Phases have to do with your choice of volume and reps. There are hundreds of different Crossfit routines. Different based on the individual, trainers, gyms you attend.

If you are looking for more power exercises. Theres no reason why you cant do less reps and more weights. Elite Crossfitters have phases too. As the CF games gets closer, some CFitters do more reps for conditioning or more volume for strength. They do one or two WODs a day, and then spend the rest of the day training a specific movement.

So for a hockey player it should look very similar. Spend that 1 hour doing a warm up, WOD, cool down. Afterwards if capable, or later on in the day spend an hour doing specific movements. Mix that in with hockey skill training (skating, stick handling, shooting) and you got yourself a great training day.

You say training phases is doing the "right" amount. Well too me, right amount is the amount my body is not use to and trying to break it down. Its what works for me.

Like last Monday I did 30 minutes of deadlifts.
-High Volume (nearly 300lbs) and did 7 sets of 5 reps each. I had to drop it down a bit as the sets went by
- Then I did Low volume (150lbs) 30 times in a row. I had to stop at the 15 mark cuz of fatigue for a few seconds. Then I stopped at the 28 marker because I saw myself losing form.

For many, this is probably enough in a day.

Me, I instead then did a Met Con to attack more of my whole body and train my body for HIIT.
I did 5 rounds of 1/4 mile run on treadmill, no rest then I did 11 pull ups. I did straight as much as I could but had to kip. Kip is fine. Its a different form of a pull up. It attacks your core much better than the straight. So mixing it is cool with me. And then 21 kettle bell swings

I did that 5x. Sure, for time. So that Im not sitting their in between sets. But my time was like 35-40 minutes. That was probably a sad time but afterwards I felt great. Nothing was dangerous to my body. I listened to my body. sure I had to bend over after the 3rd round of pull ups and sure i couldnt do 11 pull ups straight. But I did it as best as I could.

I loved it. Left the gym happy and great. My body grew from such a work out because I blew past my limits




Everyones programming is different. Look at Jagrs. Compared to the typical hockey program. His work outs in-season should be outlawed. Coaches tell him to slow down for years. Say its not good for him. Say he needs a rest day. Say he shouldnt be doing so many squats a day (use to, or still does 1000 squats a day since he was 15) at his age.

Yet, how can you tell him hes wrong.

You look at a hundred athletes. The top ones especially. They dont follow your typical training protocol. They do what works for them. some involves seasonal phasing, some includes weekly phasing. Sometimes idk if they even do a phase at all and just do all body exercises all day every day.

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11-25-2013, 10:55 AM
  #74
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Couldn't agree more TK.

Hockey players don't have beer and pizza post career do they?

Ciao,
TD
The guys I play with have beer and pizza right before they play.

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11-25-2013, 11:12 AM
  #75
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Listen,
Im not trying to be Crossfit butt buddy over here. I dont even have a CF membership and never attended a class.

I personally do not like how most Crossfit gyms have a limited schedule (I work 50+ hr weekly and I travel a lot). The price for me isnt as bad as the lack of classes that I could attend. I would pay it if they had better services.

They do have free 1st timer classes for Introduction for free which I been meaning to go to but the last few times I have tried to they had to cancel it to due previous engagements like hosting a children fitness seminar and what not.

So what I have done for the last year is use Youtube and Crossfit.com to learn more about functional exercises and Metabolic conditioning. Personally I have been always fascinated with it because of the Soviet Union hockey team that dominated the world (in every sport) between the 60s and 80s through this type of training. Very similar if not exactly the same in some parts.

So I learned the ideas from them. A bunch of information on proper training schedules, work outs for functionality, proper nutrition (not just diets) and a bunch of other cool stuff. I mimicked the work outs, I programmed my own schedules based on needs and wants (so a lot of front squats lol)

And I have never felt better.
I am not saying Crossfit is the best out there. Nothing is supreme over the other. Even the best athletes have gone around to dozens of different gyms and trainers collecting different data and applying what best fits.

I just like that theres finally a brand name out there that allows all of the useful training tips to be collected in one area. From there I can branch out to more specific needs. But Crossfit has never proved me wrong by going by their movements. Everything they say was taken from a previous successful source. You apply it and see what works for you.



Another great training method, very similar to Crossfit
Is look into Marv Marinovich on Youtube. Hes all about doing functional training and HIIT.
And look into Andy Obrien. Very similar but more focused on Neurological training too

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