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Renney and the rebuild

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Old
12-29-2006, 12:40 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Ehh...but Prucha shouldn't be playing the 4th line. Slump or not its something a player has to work through (scratching a player for a game is fine)....but keeping him on the 4th line no matter how hard he works is just wrong IMO.
Look, I don't disagree with you, but let's face it, regardless of the words that have come out of Renney's and Maloney's mouths, it is very clear that the organization has a different priority at the moment: that's surrounding Jagr with players who they feel will not only get them into the playoffs, but well beyond that point. This season is not about integrating prospects into the lineup, it's about finetuning what was here up until the Olympic break last year.

Now, do I think this course of action is going to pay off? No. But, it really doesn't matter what I think and management has made its evaluations of the talent currently in the organization and has deemed them not ready for primetime. Personally, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop and see who is shipped out in the process.

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12-29-2006, 12:45 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
Look, I don't disagree with you, but let's face it, regardless of the words that have come out of Renney's and Maloney's mouths, it is very clear that the organization has a different priority at the moment: that's surrounding Jagr with players who they feel will not only get them into the playoffs, but well beyond that point. This season is not about integrating prospects into the lineup, it's about finetuning what was here up until the Olympic break last year.

Now, do I think this course of action is going to pay off? No. But, it really doesn't matter what I think and management has made its evaluations of the talent currently in the organization and has deemed them not ready for primetime. Personally, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop and see who is shipped out in the process.
Very fair enough. Agree with you....time will tell if the organization as a whole changes its direction or not...if we agree with what they are doing now or later, or if we disagree.

Obviously from my post you know I disagree what they are doing at the moment, but hey...thats why I started this thread...to get all the views in which you provided a good one.

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12-29-2006, 12:53 AM
  #53
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Thank you.

I've given up venting (for the most part) because I just don't have enough time for the pain. I enjoy hockey too much to give it up, but the way this franchise has been run for so long makes it hard to be anything but cynical about it.

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12-29-2006, 01:36 AM
  #54
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I'm tired of the mediocrity.

This team just needs to fire Renney, and then tank. Get some good young cornerstone players, and rebuild the right way.

This is not the right way. Calling up players to play them 3 minutes a game and not give them a shot, sending them the wrong message is not how you develop young players. Dawes and Callahan were better than ANY of the forwards on our 3rd and 4th lines, yet they're down in Hartford.

Renney has absolutely no clue of what's going on, he's a complete moron.

We never have those great young players come up through our system because...

A. We never do bad enough to get them. We'll miss the playoffs by a hair, so we're nowhere near the lottery picks.

B. We never give them a chance. We call them up to play 2 or 3 minutes a game, and it's not enough of a chance to prove anything.

C. We then trade them after they've gotten the "New York Rangers chance to prove yourself," and fail to do so, because no one can prove themselves with that kind of ice time in that kind of situation.

It sucks, because if this team was ran right, we'd be a cup contender. We have some good young assets, but outside of Montoya, nothing that resembles elite. Staal is up there, but I'm not sold on him being an elite talent. Hopefully one day he becomes that great shutdown defender we've lacked over the years. But we need more.

The Rangers front office SUCKS.

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12-29-2006, 01:56 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
I'm tired of the mediocrity.

This team just needs to fire Renney, and then tank. Get some good young cornerstone players, and rebuild the right way.

This is not the right way. Calling up players to play them 3 minutes a game and not give them a shot, sending them the wrong message is not how you develop young players. Dawes and Callahan were better than ANY of the forwards on our 3rd and 4th lines, yet they're down in Hartford.

Renney has absolutely no clue of what's going on, he's a complete moron.

We never have those great young players come up through our system because...

A. We never do bad enough to get them. We'll miss the playoffs by a hair, so we're nowhere near the lottery picks.

B. We never give them a chance. We call them up to play 2 or 3 minutes a game, and it's not enough of a chance to prove anything.

C. We then trade them after they've gotten the "New York Rangers chance to prove yourself," and fail to do so, because no one can prove themselves with that kind of ice time in that kind of situation.

It sucks, because if this team was ran right, we'd be a cup contender. We have some good young assets, but outside of Montoya, nothing that resembles elite. Staal is up there, but I'm not sold on him being an elite talent. Hopefully one day he becomes that great shutdown defender we've lacked over the years. But we need more.

The Rangers front office SUCKS.
and wed have more grit on our team too, most teams dont want to see their player get run and hurt. What if Neil elbows jagr and he gets hurt. I guess they dont care. Sather missed out on Laraque big time. He had him on Oilers and drafted him. Hed be great for us right now.

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12-29-2006, 09:21 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
I also think it's very important to think about how a team will look in 3-5 years. Right now, we'd be hard pressed to argue that more than 3-5 players here now (on the NHL roster) will still be here then. The organization has to start making evaluations as to who can elevate their game up to the NHL level. Again, I'm not arguing to have a roster full of rookies, just have some younger players plugged into the lineup when the opportunity presents itself early in the season, rather than simply rearranging the deck chairs to cover up injuries.
We actually have no issues. I agree with what you're saying here. My point in the second half of that post was meant to go against Ola's claim that those who are calling for youth are doing so because they want to win now, that they "can't stand loosing." I think that's entirely incorrect.

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12-29-2006, 09:35 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Just thinking about it now...

Prucha - Proven 30 goal scorer in his rookie year but this year he is pegged on the 4th line and been scratched a few times.

Immonen - Comes up as a rookie, plays decent on the 2nd line then out of nowhere is demoted to the 4th line.

Dawes - Wins a spot out of game, NYR.com makes a big deal about it and all...ends up on the 4th line with Orr and Hollweg(who have zero offensive skill), plays about 3 minutes a game and not enough time to prove anything. Then he gets sent back down.

Callahan - Proving himself in the AHL to work toward getting on the Rangers, gets called up only to play 3 minutes. Gets sent down after a couple games



What the hell is going on?

Does he not realize he is sending a HORRIBLE message to our HFD team and prospects? What do the players have to work toward? Getting called up and playing on the 4th line for 3 minutes? Its not like these players getting called up are making mistakes either(and even if they are ITS PART OF LEARNING and getting better). Renney just assumes that since they are young that they will make a mistake so might as well sit them for 95% of the game.

I'm sorry for another Renney bashing thread but this is really about the attitude and message the youth of our team in REBUILD mode are getting. I think it's an absolute joke.

Haven't we been saying this for the last two months or so?

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12-29-2006, 10:19 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Haven't we been saying this for the last two months or so?
Yes, and we're usually met with the "the kids are not ready" mantra. However, that does not address those that ARE ready or the treatment of the best Rangers rookie forward since Amonte, Weight & Kovalev laced their skates as rookies.

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12-29-2006, 11:30 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Just thinking about it now...

Prucha - Proven 30 goal scorer in his rookie year but this year he is pegged on the 4th line and been scratched a few times.

Immonen - Comes up as a rookie, plays decent on the 2nd line then out of nowhere is demoted to the 4th line.

Dawes - Wins a spot out of game, NYR.com makes a big deal about it and all...ends up on the 4th line with Orr and Hollweg(who have zero offensive skill), plays about 3 minutes a game and not enough time to prove anything. Then he gets sent back down.

Callahan
- Proving himself in the AHL to work toward getting on the Rangers, gets called up only to play 3 minutes. Gets sent down after a couple games

What the hell is going on?

Does he not realize he is sending a HORRIBLE message to our HFD team and prospects? What do the players have to work toward? Getting called up and playing on the 4th line for 3 minutes? Its not like these players getting called up are making mistakes either(and even if they are ITS PART OF LEARNING and getting better). Renney just assumes that since they are young that they will make a mistake so might as well sit them for 95% of the game.

I'm sorry for another Renney bashing thread but this is really about the attitude and message the youth of our team in REBUILD mode are getting. I think it's an absolute joke.
I don't really agree on thoose players.

Prucha, scored 30 goals last year, got 130 shots through to the net, while playing on the PP with Jagr. Petr have a great touch, but he depends allot on the enviorment he is in -- to score goals. Besides scoring goals he can be a very valueble player. Prucha and Renney headed into the season expecting goals, Petr didn't deliver with very "normal" ice time for a 2nd lineer. No excuses here.

What Renney have gone on record saying is that he wants Prucha to go back to the basics and be a important player despite not beeing hot in the goalscoring department. I don't have any problems with that. We all talk about accountability and stuff, Renney here are "coaching" a player.

I also have to say that while Renney have scratched Prucha, Renney have also played him on the first line for what 3-4 games? How many have he been scratched?

You also say that Immonen have been OK. But OK for what? A 24 year old rookie, or a 2nd line center? If Immonen were signed as a 2nd line C for 4m per year as a UFA I would have gone nuts. 3m? Still nuts. I guess he is ok for 800k.

I doubted he had a future in the NHL when I saw him in Finland, I doubted it when I saw him in HFD. I have never been as doubtful as I am now. And I am sure everyone on here will do the same if he were handed the 2nd line center spot and played there for 2-3 seasons. I've seen Hossa more impressive on a 2nd line then Immonen are.

Though I don't mind him beeing used like he are right now, play him allot when he is hot, a little less when he is cold ect. If he really can build up his confidence and get really hot its possible that he actually might fill a important role.

On Dawes, he had some great games in the preseason, but his last in the preseason were not good at all. He then started the year on a 3rd line, and did not play well. He didn't contribute with anything really, especially not with the puck. Rember that this is a kid who is a 1-way player, he works hard and have great attitude, but he is not and will never be a defensive forward, when he can't accomplish anything with the puck it aren't good. He got moved down, and up, but all in all only had a few decent shifts.

Compare him with Dom Moore for example, instead of Kaspar or Malik, and Moore outplayed him as a rookie by a mile.

There were a big debate on this board wheter Dawes would be ready before the season, I think we all hoped but were also a bit uncertain, is it right for him to play on a 4th line ect. I don't think its a shocker that he is in the AHL.

On Callahan, he needs time in the AHL. He is a big upgrade over Orr thats for sure, but I rather have him develop in HFD another year. I want to give this kid his first big shot when he is ready to make a real splash, like Prucha did last season.

The bottom line is that I don't think I really have changed my expectations on any of the kids this year, after watching them play last season I am not suprised at were any of them are playing. We could really have needed either a Dawes or a Dubinsky shot in the arm, but I think its a fact that neiter were ready to provide that.

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12-29-2006, 03:32 PM
  #60
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ola...

I think the point on Immonen was that he played well enough on the second line to stay on the second line, given the current roster of players. Why did he get demoted to the fourth line? Because the Rangers lost a couple? Because Cullen scored a couple? Because Renney wanted to balance things out by having Ward on a top line? Everyone made fun of Ron Low who had Toms on a top line for 5 or so games, but this is just as comical (unlike Toms, Ward didn't net a hattrick).

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12-29-2006, 03:59 PM
  #61
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I have said since the beginning of the year this team is not a contender. To accelerate the rebuild and obtain a number of prospects, I'd consider a Jagr trade. Jagr will be too old by the time the prospects mature. I'd consider trading him to Anaheim, S.J. or Montreal, teams that could really contend. Each team has youngsters who would help us immensely. As a true fan, I'm not interested in a huge run to eighth place. I'll miss the playoffs, accumulate some addional youngsters, and sign some players in the offseason. IMO, Shanny can also be had in the right trade.
Renney may have burnt out the big two. He has shown us the playoffs and not a rebuild is the only important agenda item.I totally disagree with this concept.

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12-29-2006, 04:05 PM
  #62
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The Rangers don't seem to be in a frenzy to make a deal

Quote:
As many as 10 NHL teams are searching for an upgrade, or at the very least reinforcement at centre-ice. With Toronto, Ottawa, Calgary and Columbus considered among the most eager
http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists/darren_dreger/

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Toronto, Montreal, Chicago, Columbus and Calgary have all made inquiries for centres this season
http://ottsun.canoe.ca/Sports/Senato...59167-sun.html

Sather has a job for life.He loves Renney.Tried to hire Renney in Edmonton after he was fired in Vancouver.Renney went back to the CHA.Was one of his first hires in New York.You would think with that kind of job security the Rangers would give their young players more opportunties

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12-29-2006, 04:25 PM
  #63
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Sather has a job for life.He loves Renney.Tried to hire Renney in Edmonton after he was fired in Vancouver.Renney went back to the CHA.Was one of his first hires in New York.You would think with that kind of job security the Rangers would give their young players more opportunties
Not if they want to win first. If that's the case you go with the vets who will make fewer mistakes and are more used to the NHL grind.

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12-29-2006, 04:26 PM
  #64
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And I am sure everyone on here will do the same if he were handed the 2nd line center spot and played there for 2-3 seasons. I've seen Hossa more impressive on a 2nd line then Immonen are.
Let's not get ridiculous here. Hossa has 3 points in 36 games. In the handfull of games that Immonen has played on the 2nd line, he has 4 points. All the while, he has won more face-offs than any of the team's other centers. Hossa is a 4th liner at best. Immonen, in his short addittion, has shown himself to be the best option on the 2nd line, as the team is currently constituted. At a minumum, Immonen's peformance demands a look-see, as opposed to Hossa who has shown himself to be an inconsistent 4th line player.
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Prucha, scored 30 goals last year, got 130 shots through to the net, while playing on the PP with Jagr. Petr have a great touch, but he depends allot on the enviorment he is in -- to score goals. Besides scoring goals he can be a very valueble player. Prucha and Renney headed into the season expecting goals, Petr didn't deliver with very "normal" ice time for a 2nd lineer. No excuses here.
Other "normal" 2nd line players also get some PP time, which helps get their timing down and created confidence. Prucha's PP time has been cut to next to nothing.
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We all talk about accountability and stuff, Renney here are "coaching" a player.
And I see him burying a kid, who has to be scratching his head given the amount of hustle that he shows every night.
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I doubted he had a future in the NHL when I saw him in Finland, I doubted it when I saw him in HFD. I have never been as doubtful as I am now.
There is NOTHING to indicate that he has no future in the NHL. Certainly not his performance in Hartford. Nor do his 6 points in 17 games, while averaging only around 10.5 minutes per night.
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On Dawes, he had some great games in the preseason, but his last in the preseason were not good at all. He then started the year on a 3rd line, and did not play well. He didn't contribute with anything really, especially not with the puck. Rember that this is a kid who is a 1-way player, he works hard and have great attitude, but he is not and will never be a defensive forward, when he can't accomplish anything with the puck it aren't good. He got moved down, and up, but all in all only had a few decent shifts.
Another player I greatly disagree with you on. The one time that he had a chance to play on the 2nd line, he scored. He hustled and when given a chance, made things happen. He looked like a better option for the 3rd line than any of the other options that Renney has used. His performance was certainly no worse.
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There were a big debate on this board wheter Dawes would be ready before the season, I think we all hoped but were also a bit uncertain, is it right for him to play on a 4th line ect. I don't think its a shocker that he is in the AHL.
It is a shocke considering the alarming lack of scoring from the 3rd line and considering that he looked no worse than any of the other 3rd line options.

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12-30-2006, 08:15 AM
  #65
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I have said since the beginning of the year this team is not a contender. To accelerate the rebuild and obtain a number of prospects, I'd consider a Jagr trade. Jagr will be too old by the time the prospects mature. I'd consider trading him to Anaheim, S.J. or Montreal, teams that could really contend. Each team has youngsters who would help us immensely. As a true fan, I'm not interested in a huge run to eighth place. I'll miss the playoffs, accumulate some addional youngsters, and sign some players in the offseason. IMO, Shanny can also be had in the right trade.
Renney may have burnt out the big two. He has shown us the playoffs and not a rebuild is the only important agenda item.I totally disagree with this concept.
True point on Jagr. But, remember one thing, the way our contracts are structured we will have a lot of cap money in the next 2-3 years to sign a top young stud. The UFA age continues to go down each year. The MSG model has always been to have a star attraction, only the next time we go out to buy a star it should be a much younger version because of the terms of the CBA and the age of available UFAs. It won't be because we have gotten smarter, it will be because the league and the players have helped us out.

Two or three years from now will be the perfect time to fit in one or two high end players. The Jagr team is designed to max his potential, fill the garden and keep the interest going. I've been as frustrated as anyone with how Prucha, Dawes, Immonen, etc have been handled. I just had to take a step back and understand the organization's mentality, look at what we have coming and hope that players like Prucha and Lundqvist aren't ruined.

Thsi however is the last year I put up with youth not being served. I'll buy, though I may not agree, that some of the kids need more seasoning. But looking at the lack of production, physical play by some of our 3rd & 4th liners I tend to think a younger player could do the same and gain experience. The trade off is whther it is beneficial to their development or not. That is where I defer to the people who get paid to make those decisions. On defense the same exact situation exist. Baranka, Lampman, Pock can not be as bad and the same analysis must be applied.

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12-30-2006, 08:56 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
Thsi however is the last year I put up with youth not being served. I'll buy, though I may not agree, that some of the kids need more seasoning. But looking at the lack of production, physical play by some of our 3rd & 4th liners I tend to think a younger player could do the same and gain experience. The trade off is whther it is beneficial to their development or not. That is where I defer to the people who get paid to make those decisions. On defense the same exact situation exist. Baranka, Lampman, Pock can not be as bad and the same analysis must be applied.
Considering that next year will be the 4th year since the great purge, lots of questions about the so-called rebuild and state of the system as a whole will be answered.

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