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Coots: Sean Couturier

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Old
11-25-2013, 09:56 AM
  #526
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I don't think its as big of an issues as some make it out to be. I think he's still a bachelor, so he's not uprooting a family.
Trade him to Edmonton where he was originally willing to go when Holmgren confronted him at one point

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11-25-2013, 09:57 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I look forward to reading this exact same post on Facebook written by someone else. LOL

Where do you find all of this stuff? I love your posts.
Behindthenet.ca, nhl.com and extraskater.com. I like behindthenet most, but sometimes it is nice to use all three. (so long as I make sure they are at the same place in games played!)

They two advanced stats ones are pretty awesome, obviously have to be taken with care, but if a guy is at or near the top on several different advanced measures (for scoring when on, defence etc) or the stats are qualified in some other way I think it is a great tool... a nice way of seeing if what you see when watching the games ring true as well, like qualification when used with the 'eye test.'

They have pretty good track records as well for predicting teams who are overachieving etc, predicting teams dropping, on an individual level there is more uncertainty, though less when large amounts of games/minutes are used (like 50+)... but they are still awesome.

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11-25-2013, 09:57 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Look at the Sedins stats to see top two picks who didn't start scoring heavily for several years. And they didn't start playing in the NHL till they were as old as Couturier is now.
First off, I need to point out again that I am not saying I agree with what these people are saying. I am just saying understand the argument. It is not some absurd outlandish argument they are making. I know that guys can start scoring at different ages. But the general consensus or outlook or understanding or whatever you want to call it, is that guys that are going to be big time scorers start out making an impact from the get-go. If you are a top ten pick and in your third year not making that kind of impact, it is understandable to call a guy overrated.

Again, I don't agree with this, but it is understandable. Like I said, if the shoe was on the other foot, I think a lot of us would be saying the Leafs (Pens, NYR, whomever) are overrating their guy.

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11-25-2013, 09:58 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with those folks or complaining about Couturier in any way. I'm just saying the reactions to their arguments is just as silly as the arguments being made. From people who don't watch Couturier regularly, looking at his numbers, it is easy to say he is overrated on here. Even considering his defensive impact I think it is understandable to say he is overrated. People see a top ten pick not scoring points in his third NHL season are going to talk overrated or bust. It's not an unfair argument to make.

In all likelihood, if a team like the Leafs had a top ten pick who was scoring at the same rate as Couturier, I'm sure everyone on these boards would call him overrated regardless of his defense. Like I said, I understand the argument, I just don't agree with it. But it isn't as ridiculous as many are making it out to be.
Actually, it is.

Keith Primeau, drafted 3rd overall, who was also a big two way center, didn't start scoring until his 4th year. And even then, he wasn't that big a point producer. Nothing close to elite. I don't know one person who thinks he was a bust.

How about Jordan Staal? Yeah he started scoring right away, but he isn't an elite scorer either. Not even close, yet no one considers him a bust. And if you look at him this year, he's being used in the same role Couturier is being used in and oh look what do ya know, each have 8 points on the year with Couts playing 2 less games.

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11-25-2013, 10:02 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Actually, it is.

Keith Primeau, drafted 3rd overall, who was also a big two way center, didn't start scoring until his 4th year. And even then, he wasn't that big a point producer. Nothing closer to elite. I don't know one person who thinks he was a bust.

How about Jordan Staal? Yeah he started scoring right away, but he isn't an elite scorer either. Not even close, yet no one considers him a bust. And if you look at him this year, he's being used in the same role Couturier is being used in and oh look what do ya know, each have 8 points on the year with Couts playing 2 less games.
Staal was being played as a winger centred by Malkin and occasionally Crosby in his first year as well! Add that to his 22% shooting that year and yeh... bit of an outlier in production! He was lucky as hell! (Still played well... but luckily.)

2nd year he gets given his own line and harder minutes... 28 points in 82... Couts factored for 27 in his 2nd year in a similar role.

When advanced stats are looked at him and Couts always seem to be in the same hemisphere, it is actually bizarre how often there names appear in the same page on the same query!

And yeh, this year there numbers are almost identical defensively and offensively.

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11-25-2013, 10:06 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Staal was being played as a winger centred by Malkin and occasionally Crosby in his first year as well!

2nd year he gets given his own line and harder minutes... 28 points in 82... Couts factored for 27 in his 2nd year in a similar role.

When advanced stats are looked at him and Couts always seem to be in the same hemisphere, it is actually bizarre how often there names appear in the same page on the same query!

And yeh, this year there numbers are almost identical defensively and offensively.
Thank you for mentioning that. I forgot to put that in my post.

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11-25-2013, 10:06 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
First off, I need to point out again that I am not saying I agree with what these people are saying. I am just saying understand the argument. It is not some absurd outlandish argument they are making. I know that guys can start scoring at different ages. But the general consensus or outlook or understanding or whatever you want to call it, is that guys that are going to be big time scorers start out making an impact from the get-go. If you are a top ten pick and in your third year not making that kind of impact, it is understandable to call a guy overrated.

Again, I don't agree with this, but it is understandable. Like I said, if the shoe was on the other foot, I think a lot of us would be saying the Leafs (Pens, NYR, whomever) are overrating their guy.
If the Pens and Rangers had a guy who was shutting down our top line every game we would recognize it.

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11-25-2013, 10:08 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
If the Pens and Rangers had a guy who was shutting down our top line every game we would recognize it.
Yeah I can't recall anyone saying Jordan Staal sucked and was a bust when he was on Pittsburgh. If anything I remember people saying he'd break out if he had more of a chance and wasn't blocked by Geno and Sid.

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11-25-2013, 10:11 AM
  #534
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Staal always used to scare me when we played Pittsburgh. I was glad they traded him to Carolina.

Also what is up with the Western conference fans who parachute into threads about the Flyers to trash our players when they clearly have not watched a Flyers game all season? It's bizarre.

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Old
11-25-2013, 10:14 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Yeah I can't recall anyone saying Jordan Staal sucked and was a bust when he was on Pittsburgh. If anything I remember people saying he'd break out if he had more of a chance and wasn't blocked by Geno and Sid.
And he did exactly that when given the shot.

50 in 62 an 9 in 6 in the playoffs when he was given a 1/2C role (on and off due to those two being in and out.

Not PPG by any stretch... but you are talking ~70 point pace that year.

He has basically played as a 2/3C (as he has above average minutes and PP time at times, and been up and down depending on need.) most of his career and got 50 points very consistently outside that one year, and been one of the best 5 defensive centres in the NHL during that time.

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11-25-2013, 10:36 AM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Another interesting stat I just found.

Over 60+ games in a year, the best GA On/60 (5v5) amongst centres (any minutes) is 1.29 by Bobby Holik. (Since Corsi started being recorded... so 6 years)

The best for a guy playing 13+ 5v5/mins a night? Logan Couture with 1.41.

Couturier is at 1.27 after 21 games, (he will be better after 22 is added, no goals against in 16+ mins!) with 13.48 5v5 a night.

Last year in the shortened season the best for guys playing more than 9 minutes a night was 1.27 (Andrew Shaw, Bergeron had 1.29).

Ofc... he will have to keep that up for the rest of the year to 'beat' the 'best ever'... and there are a few guys ahead this year. (Plekanec, Brodziak, Kopitar with significant minutes.)

Not perfect, especially after only 20~ games, but that I think is a nice indication of how few times we are scored on comparatively when he is on the ice.
Great post, as usual, sir.

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Old
11-25-2013, 10:55 AM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Actually, it is.

Keith Primeau, drafted 3rd overall, who was also a big two way center, didn't start scoring until his 4th year. And even then, he wasn't that big a point producer. Nothing close to elite. I don't know one person who thinks he was a bust.

How about Jordan Staal? Yeah he started scoring right away, but he isn't an elite scorer either. Not even close, yet no one considers him a bust. And if you look at him this year, he's being used in the same role Couturier is being used in and oh look what do ya know, each have 8 points on the year with Couts playing 2 less games.
Again, I didn't say it was impossible for Couturier to develop, nor did I say that I agree with anything these guys are saying, but the arguments are at least valid.

As for Jordan Staal, aside from his sophomore season he hasn't score less than 30 points his entire career. Couturier, on the other hand, hasn't scored 30 points yet. I think we all expect Couturier to get to that 40s-50s range of scoring, and potentially higher. But people calling Couturier overrated are not making some ridiculous argument here. If Staal scored the way Couturier did his first three years, I'd be willing to bet people here would have been calling him overrated.

ONCE AGAIN...I DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE SAYING. I DO NOT THINK COUTURIER IS A BUST OR OVERRATED. I AM SIMPLY SAYING THAT THE ARGUMENTS MADE BY THOSE ON THE MAIN BOARDS ARE NOT AS ABSURD AS PEOPLE HERE ARE MAKING THEM OUT TO BE.

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11-25-2013, 11:00 AM
  #538
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Right now, we should just enjoy Couturier this season. He's playing elite level shutdown C role. He gets some of the toughest task, and his line is starting to product offense. You can't ask for any more.

He's pacing for 29-30 pts, but that was with an awful start (along with everybody), I think its possible he gets to 40 pts this year and if he continues to lock down the oppositions #1 scoring lines I'll take it every single day.

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Old
11-25-2013, 11:11 AM
  #539
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God forbid Coots gets injured then we'll see how overrated he supposedly is.

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11-25-2013, 11:17 AM
  #540
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Again, I didn't say it was impossible for Couturier to develop, nor did I say that I agree with anything these guys are saying, but the arguments are at least valid.

As for Jordan Staal, aside from his sophomore season he hasn't score less than 30 points his entire career. Couturier, on the other hand, hasn't scored 30 points yet. I think we all expect Couturier to get to that 40s-50s range of scoring, and potentially higher. But people calling Couturier overrated are not making some ridiculous argument here. If Staal scored the way Couturier did his first three years, I'd be willing to bet people here would have been calling him overrated.

ONCE AGAIN...I DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE SAYING. I DO NOT THINK COUTURIER IS A BUST OR OVERRATED. I AM SIMPLY SAYING THAT THE ARGUMENTS MADE BY THOSE ON THE MAIN BOARDS ARE NOT AS ABSURD AS PEOPLE HERE ARE MAKING THEM OUT TO BE.
So what you're saying then is that you don't think Couturier is a bust, but that others on the main board do raise some valid concerns......lol

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11-25-2013, 11:28 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Again, I didn't say it was impossible for Couturier to develop, nor did I say that I agree with anything these guys are saying, but the arguments are at least valid.

As for Jordan Staal, aside from his sophomore season he hasn't score less than 30 points his entire career. Couturier, on the other hand, hasn't scored 30 points yet. I think we all expect Couturier to get to that 40s-50s range of scoring, and potentially higher. But people calling Couturier overrated are not making some ridiculous argument here. If Staal scored the way Couturier did his first three years, I'd be willing to bet people here would have been calling him overrated.

ONCE AGAIN...I DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE SAYING. I DO NOT THINK COUTURIER IS A BUST OR OVERRATED. I AM SIMPLY SAYING THAT THE ARGUMENTS MADE BY THOSE ON THE MAIN BOARDS ARE NOT AS ABSURD AS PEOPLE HERE ARE MAKING THEM OUT TO BE.
Yes, we all know this. You don't have to keep repeating that. I never accused you of agreeing with them nor has anyone else. My point is, their arguments aren't valid in the slightest because of the role he is put in. It's hard enough defending top line talent, it's next to impossible to expect him to produce 40-50 points while doing that. If Berube starts to have Adam Hall take on some of Couturier's defensive assignments, allowing Sean to get some more favorable matchups offensively, and he still doesn't put up more points, then by all means they would have a valid argument. But this is not the case.

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11-25-2013, 12:37 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
So what you're saying then is that you don't think Couturier is a bust, but that others on the main board do raise some valid concerns......lol
Pretty much. You can disagree with someone but still see the merits of their argument or see from where they are coming.

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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Yes, we all know this. You don't have to keep repeating that. I never accused you of agreeing with them nor has anyone else.
It seems like the people responding to my posts are doing so with a tone as if I were the one making the arguments.

Quote:
My point is, their arguments aren't valid in the slightest because of the role he is put in. It's hard enough defending top line talent, it's next to impossible to expect him to produce 40-50 points while doing that. If Berube starts to have Adam Hall take on some of Couturier's defensive assignments, allowing Sean to get some more favorable matchups offensively, and he still doesn't put up more points, then by all means they would have a valid argument. But this is not the case.
So because he has played against tough opposition people can't question his offensive ability? Come on. That's foolish. You may not like that someone is questioning it, but it is perfectly reasonable to do so. You don't have to agree with it, you can use your stats and experience to attack their argument, but to say the argument is somehow invalid is just nonsense.

I agree with you, his role has held him back offensively, but I understand why people would make the arguments they are making.

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11-25-2013, 12:40 PM
  #543
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Can we stop with the argument about nothing?

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11-25-2013, 01:56 PM
  #544
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Can we stop with the argument about nothing?
No argument here....

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11-25-2013, 02:53 PM
  #545
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Can we stop with the argument about nothing?
Yes please. All is good in Flyer land at the moment we don't need to argue for the sake of arguing.

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11-25-2013, 03:57 PM
  #546
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This is the only sanctuary from the hell they call the Main boards. Especially regarding Coots, lol.

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11-25-2013, 04:04 PM
  #547
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I get so many lols when reading about Strome. Couts sucks because he's been in the NHL for 3 years while Strome is amazing because he tore up kids and minor leaguers.

When asked what it would take to get the Islanders to trade him this is one of the answers:
Quote:
He is not available, it would take a massive overpayment to get him. Anything less than a young top pairing defenseman with a long contract would be rejected.

Then a Leafs fan came and offered this trade (keep in mind, the Isles are desperate for a goalie):
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Will you consider Kadri and Reimer a massive OP for Strome?
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No thanks.

A Pheonix fan offered Gormley and the response...
Quote:
Gormley not even in the same world as Strome. Sorry. Move along

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11-25-2013, 04:22 PM
  #548
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The main boards are really a cruel form of punishment. If you want to find an opinion you wouldn't believe existed in a million years, you can find one in minutes.

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11-25-2013, 04:54 PM
  #549
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The main boards are really a cruel form of punishment. If you want to find an opinion you wouldn't believe existed in a million years, you can find one in minutes.
Topic being discussed: Coots is one of the better defensive Fs in the NHL.

Main board posters point to prove Coots is not a good defensive F: he doesn't score enough points.

That thread might have the most concentrated group of idiots I've ever seen.

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11-26-2013, 07:43 AM
  #550
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The main board is indeed-- bad.

But people from here do go there to start arguments. You're printing the invitations, so you have little to complain about when Joe Toronto shows up to tell you all the things you didn't know about your player he's seen skate two times.

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