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August 2012: Scott Hartnell Signs Extension (6 years, $4.75m cap hit, limited NMC)

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11-26-2013, 05:08 PM
  #276
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Most of us that watch the games complain about not having much of a net front presence during games. Well, of course everyone wants to trade the one guy who is probably the best at that. I do agree we need more skill upfront, but you still need players who bang and do the dirty work. Look at Edmonton, they desperately need that grit and sand paper in their lineup. People keep mentioning the last two seasons with him but he has been injured for large parts of them with foot injuries. When hartnell is healthy and clicking he will give you 20-25 goals and 50 points every year while providing that sand paper. He will probably have another 20 goal season this year as usual and people will still complain... I feel like we expect things from these players that they just can't do. He won't deke you out of your skates or make a great no look pass(which he actually has done before though) but he will give you the attributes teams need to succeed in the NHL.

Gaborik for Hartnell is laughable, I wouldn't go near that deal. Gaborik has little to no banging in his game. Who do we expect to win puck battles in the corners to score goals??? Gaborik won't do it.

Hartnell's contract is not bad, especially with the cap going up most definitely in the coming years, he also is supposedly a great team mate, so let's keep the guy instead of wanting to trade him for soft perimeter players like Gaborik.

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11-26-2013, 05:28 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Most of us that watch the games complain about not having much of a net front presence during games. Well, of course everyone wants to trade the one guy who is probably the best at that. I do agree we need more skill upfront, but you still need players who bang and do the dirty work. Look at Edmonton, they desperately need that grit and sand paper in their lineup. People keep mentioning the last two seasons with him but he has been injured for large parts of them with foot injuries. When hartnell is healthy and clicking he will give you 20-25 goals and 50 points every year while providing that sand paper. He will probably have another 20 goal season this year as usual and people will still complain... I feel like we expect things from these players that they just can't do. He won't deke you out of your skates or make a great no look pass(which he actually has done before though) but he will give you the attributes teams need to succeed in the NHL.

Gaborik for Hartnell is laughable, I wouldn't go near that deal. Gaborik has little to no banging in his game. Who do we expect to win puck battles in the corners to score goals??? Gaborik won't do it.

Hartnell's contract is not bad, especially with the cap going up most definitely in the coming years, he also is supposedly a great team mate, so let's keep the guy instead of wanting to trade him for soft perimeter players like Gaborik.
Blah blah blah new NHL blah blah speed yadayadayada falling blah cant skate blah

I agree with everything you said. Just wait for the stupid counter arguments.

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11-26-2013, 05:36 PM
  #278
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Blah blah blah new NHL blah blah speed yadayadayada falling blah cant skate blah

I agree with everything you said. Just wait for the stupid counter arguments.
Adding to that sound argument, Montreal GM said he is looking for a banger and none are available. No team ever let's them go unless it's for a premium. He said you have to draft and develop power forwards, they are an extremely rare commodity in the NHL. We need to keep Hartnell and Simmonds, plus I would love to add another on the third line. Downie is a good player, but another big body to forecheck and crash the net hard would be great for Couts. Laughton might be a possibility for that spot next year, but I still think we make a move at the draft for a big named defender or a top line winger with our 1st rounder being dangled. We need a top line winger for Giroux, one who can give us 40 goals. That would even allow us to move Hartnell down a line and have Simmonds on the third line. Our top 9 would be extremely deep again.

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11-26-2013, 05:53 PM
  #279
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I check the roster for next year and If we sign Downie (and I think they will) how they will fit laughton there (one of the best in OHL and captain on team OHL) ??? If read-couts-downie are the real deal at the end of the season, the only two line's left are the first or the second.

Can the Flyers replace what Hartnell bring with laughton ???? If the answer is yes then Hartnell could, maybe with a 1st or 2nd round, land us a 1-2 D.

Laugthon could be on the 2nd line with Lecavalier and Simmonds as wingers an schenn on the first line with Giroux and voracek.

What do you think???

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11-26-2013, 06:47 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Blah blah blah new NHL blah blah speed yadayadayada falling blah cant skate blah

I agree with everything you said. Just wait for the stupid counter arguments.
For the record, I do nort to trade Hartnell let alone for Gaborik. My point was if they do trade him who be available at the trade deadline to replace him.

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11-26-2013, 07:33 PM
  #281
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For the record, I do nort to trade Hartnell let alone for Gaborik. My point was if they do trade him who be available at the trade deadline to replace him.
Lol my bad I wasn't referring to anything you said.

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11-26-2013, 08:03 PM
  #282
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Hartnell's contract is not bad, especially with the cap going up most definitely in the coming years, he also is supposedly a great team mate, so let's keep the guy instead of wanting to trade him for soft perimeter players like Gaborik.
His contract is terrible. Not on money, but term. His style of play is not conducive to a long playing career in the NHL. He also makes a lot of dumb plays and penalties on the ice. I rather get out of his contract while still able to. That way you don't lose him for nothing. I don't care that the cap is going up in the future. $4.75M isn't exactly chump change. I think the Flyers can resign Downie, has grit too, for cheaper than what Hartnell makes.

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11-26-2013, 08:29 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Most of us that watch the games complain about not having much of a net front presence during games. Well, of course everyone wants to trade the one guy who is probably the best at that. I do agree we need more skill upfront, but you still need players who bang and do the dirty work. Look at Edmonton, they desperately need that grit and sand paper in their lineup. People keep mentioning the last two seasons with him but he has been injured for large parts of them with foot injuries. When hartnell is healthy and clicking he will give you 20-25 goals and 50 points every year while providing that sand paper. He will probably have another 20 goal season this year as usual and people will still complain... I feel like we expect things from these players that they just can't do. He won't deke you out of your skates or make a great no look pass(which he actually has done before though) but he will give you the attributes teams need to succeed in the NHL.

Gaborik for Hartnell is laughable, I wouldn't go near that deal. Gaborik has little to no banging in his game. Who do we expect to win puck battles in the corners to score goals??? Gaborik won't do it.

Hartnell's contract is not bad, especially with the cap going up most definitely in the coming years, he also is supposedly a great team mate, so let's keep the guy instead of wanting to trade him for soft perimeter players like Gaborik.
Blah blah blah...the 4.75M dollar grinder who cant keep up with G on the 1st line and probably wont for the next 6yrs. While Gaborik has his faults he would look way better on G's wing than the 4 million dollar falling man...

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11-26-2013, 08:44 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by flyersfromquebec View Post
I check the roster for next year and If we sign Downie (and I think they will) how they will fit laughton there (one of the best in OHL and captain on team OHL) ??? If read-couts-downie are the real deal at the end of the season, the only two line's left are the first or the second.

Can the Flyers replace what Hartnell bring with laughton ???? If the answer is yes then Hartnell could, maybe with a 1st or 2nd round, land us a 1-2 D.

Laugthon could be on the 2nd line with Lecavalier and Simmonds as wingers an schenn on the first line with Giroux and voracek.

What do you think???
I think you should apologize to the bandwidth you just abused.

1) If Read, Couturier, and Downie are a legitimate two-way threat by the season's end, the Flyers will finally have the two lines capable of carrying their weight, which we lost two years ago when Holmgren hastily traded away Carter and Richards without first having competent replacements in line. In other words, we'll be exactly where we were two seasons ago. You do not repeat the mistake in trading away a known commodity with the blind-hope his replacement can match the production*... unless you want to end up like the Sabres.

2) LeCavalier, Simmonds, and Schenn have done little to justify handing them such prominent roles as you're suggesting; The same can be said of Laughton. That's not to say LeCavalier and Simmonds both don't or aren't at least capable of contributing to the power-play, which is where I feel they're most valuable, but moving either could prove to be harder than you'd expect given the clauses attached. I doubt we get fair value. (Nevermind the fact we have no suitable replacement for either player, at the moment.) And, while Schenn and Laughton are both young promising players, until they prove they can handle a heavy work-load without compromising the team, it's up to Berube to put them in a position to succeed, while limiting their roles with the Flyers.

So, until you are no longer ABLE to accommodate the bodies (i.e. Umberger, Lupul, etc.), it's my opinion Holmgren should allow the core to continue to mature slowly, uninterrupted, temporarily providing the team with a cost-effective replacement for the retreads we've become all too accustomed to seeing on the lower lines.

*Hartnell is a notoriously streaky scorer. Those unaware, or those who choose to ignore the fact, should head towards the exit immediately. At the end of the day, you take the good with the bad, knowing the man will give you the rare combination of skill and sandpaper teams around the league are chomping at the bit to get hold of. Don't give them the opportunity.

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11-26-2013, 08:50 PM
  #285
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Blah blah blah...the 4.75M dollar grinder who cant keep up with G on the 1st line and probably wont for the next 6yrs. While Gaborik has his faults he would look way better on G's wing than the 4 million dollar falling man...
In EA games. With injuries turned off. Sure, I'd agree with that.

Unfortunately, wing is probably the least valuable position in the league today outside of goaltenders. (The most important being defense, followed closely by centers.) Any organization that's traditionally invested in wingers without addressing the two most critical positions has fallen flat, and it's my belief that is what separates organizations like Washington from Pittsburgh and Chicago, and Atlanta and Columbus from Nashville. If you want to pay a complementary player six to eight million dollars a season, that's your prerogative. But, I pray Flyers' management sees things differently... for my sake.

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11-26-2013, 08:58 PM
  #286
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In EA games. With injuries turned off. Sure, I'd agree with that.

Unfortunately, wing is probably the least valuable position in the league today outside of goaltenders. (The most important being defense, followed closely by centers.) Any organization that's traditionally invested in wingers without addressing the two most critical positions has fallen flat, and it's my belief that is what separates organizations like Washington from Pittsburgh and Chicago, and Atlanta and Columbus from Nashville. If you want to pay a complementary player six to eight million dollars a season, that's your prerogative. But, I pray Flyers' management sees things differently... for my sake.
The primary reason I would take Gaborik is bc he would be a tryout and then if necessary unload him like Columbus. It would be a way of getting rid of Hartnell's contract. It would be similar to the Evan Turner situation with the Sixers. You can mock all you want but if people think Hartnell is going to produce like he did for another six years I have a Bryz contract I want you to pick up..

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11-26-2013, 08:59 PM
  #287
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cant believe Homer gave this dolt 6 more years

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11-26-2013, 09:07 PM
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Wow there are really people here who wouldnt take Gaborik for Hartnell? That's honestly insane....Netfront presence? How about Simmonds and Downie. The reason we so desperately need the netfront presence is because don't have a soul on this team that has a threatening shot from outside 15 feet and need muckers to jam in the rebounds off of our crappy shooting. While Gaborik isn't the best shooter in the league, his shot is leagues above anyone on this squad. And while I love Hartnell and what he brings, It makes me laugh when to read that anyone wouldn't do that swap. I would have done it even before acquiring a guy like Downie but thats already done too. Crazy stuff.....

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11-26-2013, 09:43 PM
  #289
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The primary reason I would take Gaborik is bc he would be a tryout and then if necessary unload him like Columbus. It would be a way of getting rid of Hartnell's contract. It would be similar to the Evan Turner situation with the Sixers. You can mock all you want but if people think Hartnell is going to produce like he did for another six years I have a Bryz contract I want you to pick up..
And if Gaborik's hurt, which is a virtual lock, you risk losing Hartnell (who is an asset, regardless of what the fickle fans of Philadelphia feel) for nothing. Putrid management in an age when team's can ill-afford to piss away talent, thank you very much, salary cap.

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Wow there are really people here who wouldnt take Gaborik for Hartnell? That's honestly insane....Netfront presence? How about Simmonds and Downie. The reason we so desperately need the netfront presence is because don't have a soul on this team that has a threatening shot from outside 15 feet and need muckers to jam in the rebounds off of our crappy shooting. While Gaborik isn't the best shooter in the league, his shot is leagues above anyone on this squad. And while I love Hartnell and what he brings, It makes me laugh when to read that anyone wouldn't do that swap. I would have done it even before acquiring a guy like Downie but thats already done too. Crazy stuff.....
First off, our power-play's been fine without a "threatening shot". Last season, for instance, we finished third. The season before that, it was sixth. You're looking to improve an area that doesn't need improving for reasons I don't entirely understand. Second, LECAVALIER!!!

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11-26-2013, 09:58 PM
  #290
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First off, our power-play's been fine without a "threatening shot". Last season, for instance, we finished third. The season before that, it was sixth. You're looking to improve an area that doesn't need improving for reasons I don't entirely understand. Second, LECAVALIER!!!

Well I didn't realize we were talking about our powerplay. But if we're going there, tell me what all this amazing powerplay success in the last couple of years has amounted to, Basement dwelling? Not sure where you got the PP thing from but yes, I can see that you fail to understand what I'm talking about, certainly on more than one level aswell.

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11-26-2013, 10:21 PM
  #291
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And if Gaborik's hurt, which is a virtual lock, you risk losing Hartnell (who is an asset, regardless of what the fickle fans of Philadelphia feel) for nothing. Putrid management in an age when team's can ill-afford to piss away talent, thank you very much, salary cap.
His cap hit is 7.5M and he's a UFA after this year....not even sure how the Flyers would fit him in unless Columbus picked up some salary. While I hate potentially losing an asset for nothing like Carle.....I just can't see Hartnell being worth the contract. He is not playing like an asset...more like an asshat...

Having said this if Gaborik could stay healthy and was even doable from a financial standpoint he would definitely complement G much more than Hartnell. I don't see how anybody can deny that.

I bet Columbus sells him at the trade deadline anyway....somebody will take him for a playoff run.

Anyway, it's not that I'm enamored with Gaborik at all....he is questionable come playoff time. I just would like to get rid of Hartnell's contract and I don't think he is going to be that productive anymore to merit the money. I hope I'm wrong...he is streaky but also of late he hasn't necessarily been a bastion of health either if comparing him to Gaborik on that front.

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11-26-2013, 11:54 PM
  #292
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Handing out such a contract after the player is having a career year is always risky.

He is overpaid but the cap will go up to mitigate the effect on the team.
I guess we can't bank on getting another amnesty buyout anytime soon?

I fear that Giroux's new contract will sting just as much as Hartsy's next year.
Signing a player like Hartnell to that contract after a career year at his age isn't risky it's dumb. The odds of him playing to that level again with the physical style he plays which will probably cause him to slow down and get injured more often than other players plus with his career year being so much higher than other years at at a relatively late age for the NHL. Just dumb. Giroux contract might turn out to be bad but from what he's show and his age there is legitimate reason to expect the level of play Giroux is paid for than Hartnell.

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11-27-2013, 07:26 AM
  #293
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Signing a player like Hartnell to that contract after a career year at his age isn't risky it's dumb. The odds of him playing to that level again with the physical style he plays which will probably cause him to slow down and get injured more often than other players plus with his career year being so much higher than other years at at a relatively late age for the NHL. Just dumb. Giroux contract might turn out to be bad but from what he's show and his age there is legitimate reason to expect the level of play Giroux is paid for than Hartnell.
We can afford it today, and 4 years from now 4.75mill won't be much

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11-27-2013, 07:35 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by flyersfromquebec View Post
I check the roster for next year and If we sign Downie (and I think they will) how they will fit laughton there (one of the best in OHL and captain on team OHL) ??? If read-couts-downie are the real deal at the end of the season, the only two line's left are the first or the second.

Can the Flyers replace what Hartnell bring with laughton ???? If the answer is yes then Hartnell could, maybe with a 1st or 2nd round, land us a 1-2 D.

Laugthon could be on the 2nd line with Lecavalier and Simmonds as wingers an schenn on the first line with Giroux and voracek.

What do you think???
Not a chance. Hartnell and a first is not going to get you a top pairing defender. He may get you a top four defender, but not a guy that is going to anchor the defense. I think if Hartnell is on the block (which he shouldn't be/likely isn't), he could fetch a first and maybe a throw in pick or prospect in return. That's about as good as you are going to get at this point.

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11-27-2013, 08:35 AM
  #295
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We can afford it today, and 4 years from now 4.75mill won't be much
I'm with you on this. In the NHL, you need talented bodies under contract, which Hartnell is. Then you just need him to execute. He hasn't been that great lately, but it's a long season. He has the tools and the Flyers have him under contract. Unless a trade makes sense, you hang on to forward depth.

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11-27-2013, 08:55 AM
  #296
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I think you should apologize to the bandwidth you just abused.

1) If Read, Couturier, and Downie are a legitimate two-way threat by the season's end, the Flyers will finally have the two lines capable of carrying their weight, which we lost two years ago when Holmgren hastily traded away Carter and Richards without first having competent replacements in line. In other words, we'll be exactly where we were two seasons ago. You do not repeat the mistake in trading away a known commodity with the blind-hope his replacement can match the production*... unless you want to end up like the Sabres.

2) LeCavalier, Simmonds, and Schenn have done little to justify handing them such prominent roles as you're suggesting; The same can be said of Laughton. That's not to say LeCavalier and Simmonds both don't or aren't at least capable of contributing to the power-play, which is where I feel they're most valuable, but moving either could prove to be harder than you'd expect given the clauses attached. I doubt we get fair value. (Nevermind the fact we have no suitable replacement for either player, at the moment.) And, while Schenn and Laughton are both young promising players, until they prove they can handle a heavy work-load without compromising the team, it's up to Berube to put them in a position to succeed, while limiting their roles with the Flyers.

So, until you are no longer ABLE to accommodate the bodies (i.e. Umberger, Lupul, etc.), it's my opinion Holmgren should allow the core to continue to mature slowly, uninterrupted, temporarily providing the team with a cost-effective replacement for the retreads we've become all too accustomed to seeing on the lower lines.

*Hartnell is a notoriously streaky scorer. Those unaware, or those who choose to ignore the fact, should head towards the exit immediately. At the end of the day, you take the good with the bad, knowing the man will give you the rare combination of skill and sandpaper teams around the league are chomping at the bit to get hold of. Don't give them the opportunity.
Agree with everything you said except the bolded. Aren't those three our top goal scorers?

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11-27-2013, 09:01 AM
  #297
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Signing a player like Hartnell to that contract after a career year at his age isn't risky it's dumb. The odds of him playing to that level again with the physical style he plays which will probably cause him to slow down and get injured more often than other players plus with his career year being so much higher than other years at at a relatively late age for the NHL. Just dumb. Giroux contract might turn out to be bad but from what he's show and his age there is legitimate reason to expect the level of play Giroux is paid for than Hartnell.
He doesn't have tom play to that 37 goal level to justify that contract. He just needs to play to the 25-ish goal, hard checking, agitating, net prescence level he has been his whole career to justify it.

Aside from a foot injury the guy hasn't missed many games at all. His game has evolved to where he can score from the slot on one timers so he isn't just banging away in front. Guys Shanny, Iginla, Andrechuk (not saying he is that good) played a similar game until they were 40-ish. He doesn't have to be playing on the top line 2-3 years from now to justify that contract.

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11-27-2013, 09:13 AM
  #298
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Agree with everything you said except the bolded. Aren't those three our top goal scorers?
LeCavalier, Simmonds, and Schenn are 5th, 8th, and 9th, respectively, in ESGF/60, which tells us their points are coming with the man advantage. Unfortunately, those three are 3rd, 2st, and 5th, respectively, in ESGA/60. So, whatever offensive boost they're providing this team, they're nullifying with poor even-strength play.

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11-27-2013, 09:36 AM
  #299
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The Hartnell contract is another in a long line of bad contracts by Homer (he's been consistent at least). He signs him after his career year and he won't sniff close to those numbers even again. I like Hartnell and hope he comes close to living up to the contract but I just don't see it.

In 3-4 years he'll be shell of what he is now and he'll still have a couple years left on his deal.

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11-27-2013, 09:58 AM
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The Hartnell contract is another in a long line of bad contracts by Homer (he's been consistent at least). He signs him after his career year and he won't sniff close to those numbers even again. I like Hartnell and hope he comes close to living up to the contract but I just don't see it.

In 3-4 years he'll be shell of what he is now and he'll still have a couple years left on his deal.
If you look at similar contracts around the league it's really not a bad contract as long as he can be average Hartnell. If he was having 30/30 seasons every year he would be underpaid.

Everyone knows Hartnell is streaky and considering we couldn't get much for him in a trade, if he even waived his NMC, and the hole left by his departure (net presence and gritty board guy), I think it would be smart to hold on to him. He'll turn it around eventually and probably end up being a key component to the teams best line like he's done time and time again (Leino-Beire-Hartnell, Hartnell-Carter-Lupul, Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr). The only line I can think of that was as good as any of those since Hartnell has been in Philly was the Knuble-Richard-Gagne line.

Only two years since 05-06 Hartnell hasn't hit 22 or more goals, the season he was going through a divorce and last year when he was injured and the season consisted of 48 games. Hartnell produces, you just have to put up with some crappy play now and again. Btw, I don't think his play the last couple games has even been that bad.

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