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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 7) Can't Win Olympic Games Edition

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Old
11-24-2013, 02:04 PM
  #626
Traitor8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I haven't seen last night's game yet btw, but I've PVRrd it and will try to catch up on it later. What was the verdict for Price and the D?
Price excellent
D - Good

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11-24-2013, 02:05 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Aceekay View Post
Price was 22 and still developing, halak was 24 and more prepared to a be a starter. you have to expect inconsistency in young players, especially young goalies. Most goalies don't even become starters until they're 25.
Agree which comes back to my point ..he wasn't elite before (which is what the other poster is claiming)

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11-24-2013, 02:06 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
Price was good that season, Halak was just outstanding. Price had only one bad half season which was last year.
You've got to be kidding me.

Losing your starting position is a BAD SEASON ..no 2 ways about it.

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11-24-2013, 02:30 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
That's an interesting one. Does a bad half period make for a 'bad' game? I'd say it can make a difference depending on how well the D had been playing before.
This could easily pass for one of our philosophical debates. The D played well for the most part. They weren't completely good just like they weren't completely bad. That's why I don't think anyone is going to complain if you say mediocre. Glass half full, glass half empty. Were the numerous high quality scoring chances allowed enough to push the needle towards the half empty mark, that's up to you.


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So you vote Good for goaltending... how about the D?
I'm going to go with good on this one just for the job Subban did on Crosby. He shadowed him and kept him off his game and more importantly off the score sheet! Anytime you can do that to the best player in the world, that's a win in my books. Honorable mention to Plekanecs and the rest of the team including Budaj for his excellent trolling.

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Old
11-24-2013, 08:59 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
Agree which comes back to my point ..he wasn't elite before (which is what the other poster is claiming)
It's not posters who claimed it though. Players, GMs, Coaches, Analysts... We've seen him across the board be in most top five lists since 2011 and that includes the latest that came out just before this season started.

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11-25-2013, 12:51 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's not posters who claimed it though. Players, GMs, Coaches, Analysts... We've seen him across the board be in most top five lists since 2011 and that includes the latest that came out just before this season started.
Usually phrased, of course, in terms involving the future (ex: "who would you build a franchise around"), or something framed long enough term to artificially bias people away from older (yet equally/more effective) goalies, as opposed to where his level/body of work actually ranked next to his peers at the time or even over the course of that particular season. His Vezina voting record is more indicative of that. No surprise that in his best season to date, he received his most Vezina votes to date. At this rate, this year should be a new high, and possibly a finalist position on the Vezina ballot, but what you're talking about is a lot of projection/potential compared to evaluation/results.

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11-25-2013, 09:52 AM
  #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Usually phrased, of course, in terms involving the future (ex: "who would you build a franchise around"), or something framed long enough term to artificially bias people away from older (yet equally/more effective) goalies, as opposed to where his level/body of work actually ranked next to his peers at the time or even over the course of that particular season. His Vezina voting record is more indicative of that. No surprise that in his best season to date, he received his most Vezina votes to date. At this rate, this year should be a new high, and possibly a finalist position on the Vezina ballot, but what you're talking about is a lot of projection/potential compared to evaluation/results.
Please back this up.

The polls made no mention involving the future at all. TSN's top 50 isn't going to put Nathan Mackinnon in there for example. Price has been considered a top five goalie for a while now.

As I wrote in the other thread after Googling TSN, THN and NHL.com:


Full disclosure, I don't remember the full details on these but they're out there with separate polls GMs and coaches on one and players on another with another poll saying Price was deserving of the Vezina in the East (and that poll was actually taken one day after the Toronto fiasco.)

Fall 2013: NHL coaches & GMs name Price top five
Fall 2013: Crosby names Price the best
Spring 2013: Players ranked him top five
Spring 2013: Coaches say he’s the best in the East (Vezina candidate)

If we limit it to NHL.com or THN:
March 2013, NHL.com:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=662735

2012:
THN: Price top 5
http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/201...in-nhl-by-thn/

TSN: Unknown. Only three goalies make the top 50. Price is not among them.

2011:
TSN: Price top five:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=49958
THN: Price is number 6
http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/201...goalie-in-nhl/


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 11-25-2013 at 09:59 AM.
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11-25-2013, 10:09 AM
  #633
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I honestly feel that Price's growth was 'held back' by trading Huet and not allowing a vet teach and lead the kid. I know thats many years ago but Montreal is not like any other city in the world for a goalie. Remember the Sports Illustrated cover; I think it was called--Loneliest Position in the World.

Price seems to be in a groove this year and kudos to Waite for fine tuning his game

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11-25-2013, 02:47 PM
  #634
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I like what Waite said the other day on RDS.. The biggest thing he worked on with him was his body language, he said his body language inspires confidence to his team mates and puts fear in the opposition making them think you're going to be tough to beat.

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11-25-2013, 09:28 PM
  #635
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Saw the game, some interesting points:

Subban was in Crosby's face a lot. Loved this perfromance.

Gorges was deked out of his shorts by Crosby and the 2nd goal was Malkin going coast to coast on our D... that's what happens when you face two of the best players in the world.

Emelin made a play that stopped what looked like a sure goal for James Neal.

Price played well.

Pittsburgh definitely had chances but that's what you'd expect. All things considered I think our D did pretty well. I'd vote Good/Good.

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11-25-2013, 11:18 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
lol ...1 bad year? He had at least 2 (one where he lost the starting position to Halak).

Anyways I don't want to get into the definition of elite...just enjoy that Price is playing well but the problem of calling him elite in the past is what do you call him this year? Super elite?
Lol...do you know how to read? I said He has been elite for four seasons now. Halak's great season was five seasons ago.

One bad season out of four doesn't make one non-elite, all goalies will have "bad" seasons. He is just as elite as he was last year, only better. Elite players can get better, can't they?

A goalie who manages to average a 92% save percentage (my somewhat calculated guess) while playing 65+ games a year over four seasons is an elite goalie. It's pretty simple.

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Old
11-26-2013, 04:48 AM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Please back this up.
I may ask you to do the same thing in a moment, but you've already "fully disclosed" that you don't have the details for the major polls that you're relying on here. Let's proceed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The polls made no mention involving the future at all. TSN's top 50 isn't going to put Nathan Mackinnon in there for example. Price has been considered a top five goalie for a while now.

As I wrote in the other thread after Googling TSN, THN and NHL.com:


Full disclosure, I don't remember the full details on these but they're out there with separate polls GMs and coaches on one and players on another with another poll saying Price was deserving of the Vezina in the East (and that poll was actually taken one day after the Toronto fiasco.)

Fall 2013: NHL coaches & GMs name Price top five
Fall 2013: Crosby names Price the best
Spring 2013: Players ranked him top five
Spring 2013: Coaches say hes the best in the East (Vezina candidate)
These are exactly the ones I was referring to when talking about polls where you could tell from the selections that it wasn't as much an actual "overall" ranking as either a) "who would you start a franchise with" or b) "who is playing the best hockey right now (i.e. this week)". At one point in early Spring 2013, he was playing the best, sure. "Goalie of the week/month" type stuff. In the end, though, he finished 10th in Vezina voting with a single point once that wore off, and 11th in voting for the post season all-star squad.

Fact is, Price's name has popped up in top 5 conversations for a while now (and like you've found, usually when hot and/or mid-season), but he hasn't deserved it on anything except potential merit - not results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If we limit it to NHL.com or THN:
March 2013, NHL.com:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=662735
Well, by this point (dated March 29th) I suppose you have to say he was getting close. I mean, he's pretty much there now, and he wasn't far off for the first bit of last season. Would have been interesting to see a poll after March 29th (the date of this one), when Price was 5W-7L with a 0.890 SV%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Link is squashed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
2011:
TSN: Price top five:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=49958
Heading into the 2011-12 season, you could understand that. Price's best season to date was 2010/11, after all. Problem is, 2011-12 ended up being a step down from that (so maybe they weren't as close as they thought with the top 5 ranking), and statistically 2012-13 was even a step further down from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Link is squashed.

But yeah, if you google articles from when Price was at his hottest, you'll find all kinds of people getting overly excited. Every year, though, when the entire season is evaluated as a whole, he has come up far short of a top 5 spot anywhere. Even last year, he was the 6th goalie listed as "most valuable" in Hart voting and 11th (as mentioned earlier) in all-star and T-10th Vezina voting, so he has a LOT to prove before he earns such recognition.

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Old
11-26-2013, 09:10 AM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I may ask you to do the same thing in a moment, but you've already "fully disclosed" that you don't have the details for the major polls that you're relying on here. Let's proceed.
These lists are top five lists (mostly top 50 player lists actually.) They aren't based on potential man. The only thing I said was that I don't have the polls that were released last spring. They're recent enough though that everyone should remember them.

The others I just Googled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
These are exactly the ones I was referring to when talking about polls where you could tell from the selections that it wasn't as much an actual "overall" ranking as either a) "who would you start a franchise with" or b) "who is playing the best hockey right now (i.e. this week)". At one point in early Spring 2013, he was playing the best, sure. "Goalie of the week/month" type stuff. In the end, though, he finished 10th in Vezina voting with a single point once that wore off, and 11th in voting for the post season all-star squad.

Fact is, Price's name has popped up in top 5 conversations for a while now (and like you've found, usually when hot and/or mid-season), but he hasn't deserved it on anything except potential merit - not results.
The polls I've shown were where he ranked in the top 50 players. This fall he was outside the top fifty but was just outside and was the 5th highest ranking goalie.

This has been pretty consistent for a while now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, by this point (dated March 29th) I suppose you have to say he was getting close. I mean, he's pretty much there now, and he wasn't far off for the first bit of last season. Would have been interesting to see a poll after March 29th (the date of this one), when Price was 5W-7L with a 0.890 SV%.
We did.

Came out this fall and he was ranked 5th by GM and coaches in the top 50 list. This was after last season coming into this one. He's still top five.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Link is squashed.
It was there when originally posted for folks to see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Heading into the 2011-12 season, you could understand that. Price's best season to date was 2010/11, after all. Problem is, 2011-12 ended up being a step down from that (so maybe they weren't as close as they thought with the top 5 ranking), and statistically 2012-13 was even a step further down from that.
He appears in 2011, 2012 and 2013 in either THN or TSN. In 2012 he doesn't make the TSN top 50 list and only 3 goalies are listed... so we don't know from the TSN side. But he does make top 5 THN. 2013 he doesn't make the top 50 either but is just outside and is ranked top 5 in the top 50. He is also ranked top 5 in 2011.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Link is squashed.
Sorry, like I said it was there when I first posted it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
But yeah, if you google articles from when Price was at his hottest, you'll find all kinds of people getting overly excited. Every year, though, when the entire season is evaluated as a whole, he has come up far short of a top 5 spot anywhere. Even last year, he was the 6th goalie listed as "most valuable" in Hart voting and 11th (as mentioned earlier) in all-star and T-10th Vezina voting, so he has a LOT to prove before he earns such recognition.
BS.

I didn't google articles when he was at his hottest. I Googled TSN top 50 and I googled THN top 5 goalies. That's what came up.

He has consistently ranked top 5 in these polls since 2011. And that includes this fall before the start of the year after his late season problems.

Those lists aren't based on potential and they aren't done when Price is hot. They are lists that were put forth mostly before the start of each year. The 2013 spring lists were the most recent ones that came out and thus were included. The further you go back the more difficult it becomes to find. Hence I did what I thought was fair and chose a couple of respected sources and pulled out their rankings. That's what came up.

Saying that it was based on potential is nothing but spin. He's been ranked top five by most respected publications for some time now.

As I said before, I'm sure there are lists that he's not top 5. All I did was Google these publications and posted what I came up with. Once you get into two years ago and three years ago it gets dicey finding this stuff and (as I said previously) I didn't want to spend my night Googling things. We see that he doesn't make TSN's top 50 in 2012 and he's 6th in THN from 2011. I didn't cherrypick anything here.

Here's a publication citing the THN at the start of 2012: http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/...-goalie-in-nhl Again... not cherrypicked. Start of the year poll. Try this link as well: http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/201...in-nhl-by-thn/

Here's the link for TSN top 50 going into 2011-12: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=49960 He's ranked 30th.

And coming into this year he's top five again...

One more ranking I found in my travels looking for the broken link. THN coming into this season. Price is ranked 48th overall and is the 7th ranked goalie according to THN analysts. So TSN (NHL coaches and GMs) have him top five coming into this year and THN analysts have him top 50 but behind six others. Worth noting the guys who he's behind in that THN poll include Anderson and Bobrovski. http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/...gs-price-no-48


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 11-26-2013 at 09:46 AM.
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11-27-2013, 11:03 PM
  #639
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This thread deserves more love after tonight

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11-27-2013, 11:09 PM
  #640
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Last 6 games:

SV%:
.923
.978
.971
.926
.936
.960

For an overall of .949. Yikes.

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11-27-2013, 11:14 PM
  #641
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I love Price but realistically, these numbers aren't sustainable. Hopefully when the numbers come back to earth Price can bounce back faster than the past from those slumps. He's never looked better than he has this season, will be interesting to see if this is his breakout year. Sometimes people forget he's only 26.

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11-27-2013, 11:18 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Last 6 games:

SV%:
.923
.978
.971
.926
.936
.960

For an overall of .949. Yikes.
He's been amazing this entire season. Should be a Vezina candidate this year if he keeps it up.

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11-27-2013, 11:21 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I love Price but realistically, these numbers aren't sustainable. Hopefully when the numbers come back to earth Price can bounce back faster than the past from those slumps. He's never looked better than he has this season, will be interesting to see if this is his breakout year. Sometimes people forget he's only 26.
The only question I have about price is if he can put consecutive good seasons together. I think he is just coming into that age now where we need to talk less about potential and more about what we have. It's time for price to show that consistency. This is the best he's been since 10/11.

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11-27-2013, 11:56 PM
  #644
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The only question I have about price is if he can put consecutive good seasons together. I think he is just coming into that age now where we need to talk less about potential and more about what we have. It's time for price to show that consistency. This is the best he's been since 10/11.
Price sure has picked up his game this year. He was always good but never elite...well this year he is showing he is elite so far this season....and I think he will keep it up.

During the national anthems tonight he didn't move...was so focused and staring into the abyss like a man on a mission.

Looking more and more like the guy we thought he could be....that is great news!!!

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11-28-2013, 12:06 AM
  #645
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Price sure has picked up his game this year. He was always good but never elite...well this year he is showing he is elite so far this season....and I think he will keep it up.

During the national anthems tonight he didn't move...was so focused and staring into the abyss like a man on a mission.

Looking more and more like the guy we thought he could be....that is great news!!!
He was certainly elite in 2011, I don't think that's arguable.

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11-28-2013, 12:17 AM
  #646
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He was certainly elite in 2011, I don't think that's arguable.
I remember how everyone freaked out when the Habs grabbed him with the 2005 pick. Watching his highs and lows have been an adventure, I am just grateful that he seems to be reaching his potential.

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11-28-2013, 12:23 AM
  #647
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He was certainly elite in 2011, I don't think that's arguable.
I gather the word "elite" is very subjective. (But in Montreal it is very defined )

Carey Price would be the first to tell you Montreal does not hang Conference Championship Banners from the rafters here....or Veniza Trophies.

What matter is cups.....and the way Price is playing he could very well be on his way to adding a banner that matters.....Putting him into a elite club of Montreal Stanely Cup winning goalies

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11-28-2013, 12:31 AM
  #648
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The only question I have about price is if he can put consecutive good seasons together. I think he is just coming into that age now where we need to talk less about potential and more about what we have. It's time for price to show that consistency. This is the best he's been since 10/11.
It's the best he's been since his career started. He has never looked so confident or in control since being in the NHL. His maturity is showing, and I'm sure working with Waite who's been pretty darn excellent in Chicago making two rather average keeper win the cup.
It's something many people said when we signed him. If he was able to turn these average goalies into cup winners, then what will he do with a very strong technical guy.
Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not, but whatever is going on, let's keep it going because Price is playing his best career hockey at the moment.

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11-28-2013, 12:57 AM
  #649
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He's been very good for a while now behind mediocre to bad teams for the most part. Dragged us into the playoffs in 2011, behind a terrible team in 2012 and a late season slump messed up an otherwise strong campaign in 2013. Right now he's playing great hockey but like all goalies there will be a slump and it will mess up the save percentage. That's just how save percentage works. We saw James Reimer have a bad game and lose 13 points off his save percentage number in one game...

He's playing great hockey right now but I think he was even better in 2011. There were stretches where he was absolutley insane. What's nice now though is Emelin's back and that's going to bring a lot more support for us.

Watching Price and Subban now is amazing. We get to see elite talent putting together great careers. Elite talent is something we've been missing for so long, it's awesome to finally see it in Montreal again.

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11-28-2013, 12:58 AM
  #650
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BTW, anyone got a problem with Good/Good tonight?

Game 1: Price Good, Defense Bad - Loss
Game 2: Price Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 3: Price Good, Defense Bad - Loss
Game 4: Budaj Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 5: Price Good, Defense Bad - Win
Game 6: Price Good, Defense Mediocre - Win
Game 7: Price Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 8: Price Good, Defense Mediocre - Loss
Game 9: Price Mediocre, Defense Bad - Loss
Game 10: Price Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 11: Price Good, Defense Mediocre - Loss
Game 12: Budaj Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 13: Price Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 14: Price Mediocre, Defense Mediocre - Loss
Game 15: Budaj Good, Defense Bad - Loss
Game 16: Price Good, Defense Bad - SO Loss (1 point)
Game 17: Price Mediocre, Defense Mediocre - Loss
Game 18: Price Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 19: Price God, Defense Bad - SO Loss (1 point)
Game 20: Budaj Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 21: Price Good, Defense Good - Loss - Emelin Returns
Game 22: Price Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 23: Budaj Good, Defense Mediocre - Win
Game 24: Price Good, Defense Good - Win
Game 25: Price Good, Defense Good - Win

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