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Wed., Nov. 27, 2013|Flyers 2 at Lightning 4

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Old
11-28-2013, 10:15 AM
  #51
TheKingPin
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Giroux has morphed into Briere. The backcheck effort on the short hand goal last night was inexcusable for anybody let alone the captain. I don't think the Flyers should trade him but if they intend to keep him, they are going to have to change the talent around him to more two way players. Right now both the 1st and 2nd lines are liabilities against tight checking teams. The Flyers are lucky they don't play in the west where the checking is tighter because they would be another Edmonton out there.
Yea he is invisable for almost this entire season. That's pretty telling.


Appleyard I appreciate your analysis it is good to have but there is a difference just watching on the ice and looking at stats. Gs assist last night was a pass to the point of about 10 feet for example. And he is always late to his man. I've seen it blatantly about 4 times myself. He is, to put it simply, a ineffective player. That you can not argue against with Corsi scores etc

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11-28-2013, 10:39 AM
  #52
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Yea he is invisable for almost this entire season. That's pretty telling.


Appleyard I appreciate your analysis it is good to have but there is a difference just watching on the ice and looking at stats. Gs assist last night was a pass to the point of about 10 feet for example. And he is always late to his man. I've seen it blatantly about 4 times myself. He is, to put it simply, a ineffective player. That you can not argue against with Corsi scores etc
Can also make the point that he is playing with average top line forwards. Hartnell is playing as an average top 9 forward and probablly is the weakeast forward out of our top 9. Voracek, with all the love he got last season is not doing anything with or without the puck. Might want to start taking a look at him also. He has always played with a great player on his line (Nash and Giroux) and still has trouble playing consistent hockey. Giroux, as shown, is effective when playing with veteran type forwards (Jagr, Vinny).

Got to wait and see. I personally thought Giroux has looked fine to great at times the past 5-10 games. Two games ago he set Hartnell up probably 5-6 times and twice were wide open nets and he couldnt finish. Hartnell or someone else finishes and Giroux trade talk isnt brought up. His defensive play isnt great but it also isnt bad. You dont have to look at Corsi the whole time but dont solely stare at Giroux when trying to judge him. If he misses a pass for example it might not be because it was a bad pass, but because the other player was out of position.

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11-28-2013, 10:43 AM
  #53
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At some point this organization needs to find a better balance, which I believe starts with the GM
Then actually watching the rest of the NHL and see what the winning teams are doing,
Team speed is never ever a bad thing to have, nor are snipers or finishers
The Flyers are stocked on grinders who can find the net, yes you need those types but not Hartnell AND Simmonds, with McGinn and Laughton in the pipeline as well
There are teams who could benefit from Hartnell or Simmer and the Flyers could benefit from finishers, I just hope someone can get this orginization on track, Mr. Hextall I'm looking at you!!!

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11-28-2013, 10:54 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
Yea he is invisable for almost this entire season. That's pretty telling.


Appleyard I appreciate your analysis it is good to have but there is a difference just watching on the ice and looking at stats. Gs assist last night was a pass to the point of about 10 feet for example. And he is always late to his man. I've seen it blatantly about 4 times myself. He is, to put it simply, a ineffective player. That you can not argue against with Corsi scores etc
C'mon, now you're just making up your own narrative and buying into it. He hasn't been invisible this season, he's leading our team in points again. He had an awful start, but he's been near PPG since then. There's been some defensive lapses, but not as many as you'd make it out to be. He's not "always" late. He's also our premiere offensive player, and the way our offense has been I'd prefer he try to cheat a little to get something going.

And wow, an ineffective player? Do you think we should put him in the AHL? Way to overreact, Batman. You can't just make such a ******** statement and say "you can't argue against that!" when there's nothing to support it. Is it now a bad thing that his assist was a pass to the point? That was a perfect setup for a one-timer.

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11-28-2013, 10:56 AM
  #55
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Can also make the point that he is playing with average top line forwards. Hartnell is playing as an average top 9 forward and probablly is the weakeast forward out of our top 9. Voracek, with all the love he got last season is not doing anything with or without the puck. Might want to start taking a look at him also. He has always played with a great player on his line (Nash and Giroux) and still has trouble playing consistent hockey. Giroux, as shown, is effective when playing with veteran type forwards (Jagr, Vinny).

Got to wait and see. I personally thought Giroux has looked fine to great at times the past 5-10 games. Two games ago he set Hartnell up probably 5-6 times and twice were wide open nets and he couldnt finish. Hartnell or someone else finishes and Giroux trade talk isnt brought up. His defensive play isnt great but it also isnt bad. You dont have to look at Corsi the whole time but dont solely stare at Giroux when trying to judge him. If he misses a pass for example it might not be because it was a bad pass, but because the other player was out of position.
Yup, and those reasons are why stats aren't everything. Girouxs point totals would be much higher if he had a top-level sniper capitalizing on his passes. The team has to find a way to get him one, or else he ends up being the Brian Westbrook of hockey.

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11-28-2013, 10:59 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
Yea he is invisable for almost this entire season. That's pretty telling.


Appleyard I appreciate your analysis it is good to have but there is a difference just watching on the ice and looking at stats. Gs assist last night was a pass to the point of about 10 feet for example. And he is always late to his man. I've seen it blatantly about 4 times myself. He is, to put it simply, a ineffective player. That you can not argue against with Corsi scores etc
He has been the same for 4 years. He is an average to slightly above average defensive centre who's defence was overhyped early on due to his PK contributions. A lot of people were saying that as early as his 93 point season.

When he had 93 points he also had the most EV GA/60 of any flyers forward (he also had the most for)... part of that was playing the 2nd hardest QoC (his line) but that. In 2010-11 he had the 5th most EV GA/60 (2nd most for.)

Factored:

2010-11: 62 for 46 against
2011-12: 66 for 55 against
2012-13: 60 for 71 against

Hartnells awful play is honestly the main reason that G has looked worse. G and Jake are 'producing' at a similar level to last year and what they were before.

The difference this year is that less shots are going in, (+ Hartnell) that is team wide as well, and more goals against (teamwide last year) so his offensive contributions are not making up for his average D. And the difference in the last two is the team as a whole has not been as good... and scored less goals a game

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11-28-2013, 11:04 AM
  #57
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I really think it's time to look into trading Simmonds and Hartnell. I wouldn't be against moving the schenns either. Besides a top pairing D, they need a new dynamic on the wing

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11-28-2013, 11:09 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Peak production for forwards is 24 to 27. So when you say young players will improve you are speaking about B Schenn and Couturier. All the other top 9 forwards are 24 and older. They will not be getting any better than they are now offensively. Maybe defensively.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/...-game-peak-age
Sure the real young guys as well as the older players defensively. Also keep in mind that like I said almost everyone is underperforming. That most definitely won't continue.

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11-28-2013, 11:10 AM
  #59
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So we suck again?!

Oh No! We suck again!!!!!!

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11-28-2013, 11:19 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by RespectTheMajor View Post
At some point this organization needs to find a better balance, which I believe starts with the GM
Then actually watching the rest of the NHL and see what the winning teams are doing,
Team speed is never ever a bad thing to have, nor are snipers or finishers
The Flyers are stocked on grinders who can find the net, yes you need those types but not Hartnell AND Simmonds, with McGinn and Laughton in the pipeline as well
There are teams who could benefit from Hartnell or Simmer and the Flyers could benefit from finishers, I just hope someone can get this orginization on track, Mr. Hextall I'm looking at you!!!
Well, they tried to model themselves after Boston and getting bigger and stronger was a major factor in Homer's strategy to build this team. At the same time Lavi let them play a style of game that was clearly favouring more mobile players.

Somehow the pieces don't fit together and never have since the last cup run. And the players are actually making things worse by showing tendencies to lean back and watch others play for stretches. And then there is the Captain of this team who cares so much but finds himself guilty of too many giveaways and refuses to back-check on a consistent basis... I understand that many people are talking how young this team is and that they are not expected to contend now but how much time will they get to really show some sustainable progress in their development?

Grinders are not even a bad thing if they know how to grind down the other team. But in orange and black grinder = slow player with hands of stone floating around watching how bad things happen.

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11-28-2013, 11:28 AM
  #61
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I'd like to see couturier get more offensive responsibility.

Move him up to the second line and have vinny p lay on his wing. Vinny is awful defensively. We need to go back to having two way centers on all of our lines.

Next season slot laughton into the third line checking role.

Xxxx - Giroux - Voracek
Lecavalier - Couturier - simmonds/hartnell
Read - laughton - downie/schenn

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11-28-2013, 11:32 AM
  #62
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I really think it's time to look into trading Simmonds and Hartnell. I wouldn't be against moving the schenns either. Besides a top pairing D, they need a new dynamic on the wing
Would you do Brayden and Simmer/Jake for E Kane ? He addresses two needs, shooter and speed !!

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11-28-2013, 11:34 AM
  #63
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We need a legit sniper and defender on this team.

Players like Vanek, Ryan, or others. Defenders are much harder to trade for, you need a team going into a rebuild or can't afford them anymore. Maybe a team who has problems negotiating a new contract that has gone sour. I will never say never, but there is oppurtunities to get them. Schenn, Schenn, Laughton, Coburn, and even some others I would make available for the right player. Voracek would have to bring a big time defender back to move him.

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11-28-2013, 11:35 AM
  #64
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Would you do Brayden and Simmer/Jake for E Kane ? He addresses two needs, shooter and speed !!
Hell no. If we trade Schenn, there is no way I move him and Simmer for Kane. Schenn+ picks and prospects for Kane, nothing more. Similar to the Ryan deal, just less though, because he is less proven.

I actually feel like Schenn has more value than Silferberg actually. Schenn+2nd rounder+a b prospect. If we continue to suck, our first rounder will be high.


Last edited by Prongo: 11-28-2013 at 11:41 AM.
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11-28-2013, 11:39 AM
  #65
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He has been the same for 4 years. He is an average to slightly above average defensive centre who's defence was overhyped early on due to his PK contributions. A lot of people were saying that as early as his 93 point season.

When he had 93 points he also had the most EV GA/60 of any flyers forward (he also had the most for)... part of that was playing the 2nd hardest QoC (his line) but that. In 2010-11 he had the 5th most EV GA/60 (2nd most for.)

Factored:

2010-11: 62 for 46 against
2011-12: 66 for 55 against
2012-13: 60 for 71 against

Hartnells awful play is honestly the main reason that G has looked worse. G and Jake are 'producing' at a similar level to last year and what they were before.

The difference this year is that less shots are going in, (+ Hartnell) that is team wide as well, and more goals against (teamwide last year) so his offensive contributions are not making up for his average D. And the difference in the last two is the team as a whole has not been as good... and scored less goals a game
For me it is not Hartnell. G's on ice shooting % is off because the quality of chances he is creating is off. I am concerned about his decline in even strength production more than anything.

Even Strength Points
08/09 42 - 21 - 0.5 PPG - Playoffs 6 - 4 - 0.666 PPG
09/10 82 - 26 - 0.317 PPG - Playoffs 23 - 13 - 0.565 PPG
10/11 82 - 50 - 0.61 PPG - Playoffs 11 - 8 - 0.727 PPG
11/12 77 - 53 - 0.688 PPG - Playoffs 10 - 6 - 0.6 PPG
12/13 48 - 26 - 0.542 PPG
13/14 24 - 8 - 0.333 PPG

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11-28-2013, 11:56 AM
  #66
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Stay the course. Look at trading Hartnell for an upgrade at his spot. That's what I've been preaching for a month. Other than that, play it out and make any necessary bigger adjustments in the off season. Let the group grow together. They're never going to develop the chemistry needed to be a contender with constant roster turnover.

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11-28-2013, 12:03 PM
  #67
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Would you do Brayden and Simmer/Jake for E Kane ? He addresses two needs, shooter and speed !!
Kane would be a great fit. But that seems like a little much. I'd probably do the schenns, then hold onto simmonds and try and flip hartnell.

I have been a fan of Luke schenn, but the way he's being used this season is not boding well

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11-28-2013, 12:28 PM
  #68
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This is not about the level of talent or skill on this team but lack of consistent effort and the absolute will to win at every price.

We have enough talent. If our forwards had only half of the tenacity, devotion and character of a Jaromir Jagr, this team would lead the conference by a margin!

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11-28-2013, 12:37 PM
  #69
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Stay the course. Look at trading Hartnell for an upgrade at his spot. That's what I've been preaching for a month. Other than that, play it out and make any necessary bigger adjustments in the off season. Let the group grow together. They're never going to develop the chemistry needed to be a contender with constant roster turnover.
Good luck trading Hartnell's contract for anything other someone else's problem.

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11-28-2013, 01:01 PM
  #70
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Good luck trading Hartnell's contract for anything other someone else's problem.
Fair enough. They have some good pieces not on the current roster that could be enticing when paired with Hartnell. Maybe something like Hartnell plus for Max Pac.

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11-28-2013, 01:09 PM
  #71
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Out of the lineup. Rosehill and Gus and streit

Insert read and mez and gill.

Gus was terrible. Rose hill adds nothing other than his fists.

I was embarrassed to watch this live. I think the players come south and slack off.

Simmonds and raffl worked last night. Rest of the team was brutal. They all make it was to easy on the other goalies. Soft shots with no screens. They need a heck of a lot more crispness to their game as well as communication.

0-2 while I sat and saw them muster 3 goals.... Fml.

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11-28-2013, 01:17 PM
  #72
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Out of the lineup. Rosehill and Gus and streit

Insert read and mez and gill.

Gus was terrible. Rose hill adds nothing other than his fists.

I was embarrassed to watch this live. I think the players come south and slack off.

Simmonds and raffl worked last night. Rest of the team was brutal. They all make it was to easy on the other goalies. Soft shots with no screens. They need a heck of a lot more crispness to their game as well as communication.

0-2 while I sat and saw them muster 3 goals.... Fml.
Agree on Rosehill.

But Gus and Kimmo? They are the two guys who have been scored on the least this year, (both overall amongst current 6 and per game) heck, Kimmo is still probably our best D man from a defensive standpoint... he just cannot get points, both can break out of the zone better than anyone else as well.

Gus had a bad game... his first since he was scratched for no reason last time.

Since Schenn and Gus came back since being scratched the D has been allowing less than 2GA/G.

Mez and Gill are the two worst D men the Flyers have. It is suicidal having them, as they would both be paired up.

Remember the last 3 games they played together? It was painful each time they were out... they were playing >15 minutes versus the oppositions 3rd and 4th lines and still managed to leak goals and chances.


Last edited by Appleyard: 11-28-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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11-28-2013, 01:26 PM
  #73
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Gus had a poor game so I guess he will be scratched. gotta keep those kids in line.
a veteran tho gets a free pass. as always.

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11-28-2013, 01:27 PM
  #74
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Agree on Rosehill.

But Gus and Kimmo? They are the two guys who have been scored on the least this year, (both overall amongst current 6 and per game) heck, Kimmo is still probably our best D man from a defensive standpoint... he just cannot get points, both can break out of the zone better than anyone else as well.

Gus had a bad game... his first since he was scratched for no reason last time.

Since Schenn and Gus came back since being scratched the D has been allowing less than 2GA/G.

Mez and Gill are the two worst D men the Flyers have. It is suicidal having them, as they would both be paired up.

Remember the last 3 games they played together? It was painful each time they were out... they were playing >15 minutes versus the oppositions 3rd and 4th lines and still managed to leak goals and chances.
Agreed. Putting out Mez and Gill is making us closer to losing then winning.

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11-28-2013, 01:39 PM
  #75
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Fair enough. They have some good pieces not on the current roster that could be enticing when paired with Hartnell. Maybe something like Hartnell plus for Max Pac.
There's nothing worthwhile to the Habs to make that kind of trade. Best bet is to wait for the summer when the cap goes up. Only other real solution is to trade him to a team with cap space and the ability to amnesty at the deadline

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