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Old
02-26-2013, 07:05 PM
  #51
IDuck
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Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post
Like what? Not to come off antagonistic (I'm really not) but I am curious to know what moves you claim to have cost [us] dearly. Letting Beauch walk was a mistake but only in hindsight. I think of a lot of us thought Wiz was going to carry that load and he didn't and then Whitney fell apart and then Scotty retired. If he knew all of that was going to happen I don't think he would have let him walk.

But other than that what bad moves that cost this team? I feel like he's made moves that didn't have an impact but didn't cost us either (Christensen, Artyukhin, Sutton etc.) The only stub prospect we lost was Gardiner and that only hurts because Schultz effed us.
i actually agree....not to mention he flipped whitney into vish, went out and got lydman and both had carear years...and this is leaving out this past summers moves...now where i go back and forth with murph is all the R2,cristenson,etc. guys that were just kind of moves to make moves IMO, but a lot of the frustration with those move to me, were that we didnt know what the teams direction/identy was so they just seemed weird...

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02-27-2013, 01:55 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post

I like how people here are saying I'll gladly eat crow if blah, blah, blah, but when that moment looks like it might be on the horizon they have to redraw the argument to be something else.
Now it's that we had a sizable young core that should have won for the next five seasons. Or just become completely obtuse. It's nice to know that you guys have the great character that you spend so much time telling us you have.
Not sure if the bolded is directed at me but if it is - when have I ever done that? I'll gladly admit when I'm wrong and I don't think I make excuses when predictions I make don't happen.

As for my opinion that we didn't need a rebuild - we have had two elite forwards and one very good first liner in their early to mid twenties the past 4 years as well as a top 10 goalie and many other valuable pieces. Teams with those pieces in place shouldn't be needing to rebuild.

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02-27-2013, 02:25 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
As for my opinion that we didn't need a rebuild - we have had two elite forwards and one very good first liner in their early to mid twenties the past 4 years as well as a top 10 goalie and many other valuable pieces. Teams with those pieces in place shouldn't be needing to rebuild.
Funny how the team we beat in '07 wound up doing exactly that, but that's just an aside. I need you to expand on the part in bold.

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11-28-2013, 02:14 AM
  #54
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I have to admit, I see Bob as a great GM. He had his flaws but over the last years he put together an awesome amateur scouting staff, he managed to get Nieds into front office, he put great goalie coaches in position. He made a big trade with solid return. He signed two outstanding contracts with Bonino and Palms. He signed a very good coach after sacking a friend. He signed the two cornerstones although in my opinion for a little too much money (Getzlaf 8, Perry 7.5-8 would have been right IMHO)

Ladies and gentlemen, believe it or not, we have a real good GM with a strong team working here.

PS.: On the downside, he needs to fix the coaching problem in Norfolk.

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11-28-2013, 03:44 AM
  #55
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I think people know that I was always a pro-management guy, back with Burke, but with Murray, as well. I obviously don't feel inclined to change my view on that in the slightest. While the re-tool did take longer than anticipated at the beginning, it was done remarkably well, and even with our lack of playoff success, with those years being our equivalent to a "rebuild", that's more than decent. However, setting up this position is just half the battle, and arguably the easier one. We're now reaping the rewards of the great work, but we're now moving towards contention, and I don't know if a team has ever been re-tooled good enough to win a cup entirely without help being brought in from the outside.

Now (and I'm using that lightly, because I'm not counting this year as a contending or "window"-year) Murray will have to show he's as capable at moving the right pieces around when the right deal is available. It's something that's equally requiring patience, maybe even more, because you can always pro-actively trade away NHLers and help a re-tool, but you can't control when potential key pieces become available elsewhere. You can control what you do when that happens, and have to be wise in analyzing which deal is worth overpaying on, because that's what the competition usually makes you do for those potentially missing pieces. It's going to be a different challenge, but he's certainly earned confidence.

EDIT: One thing I particularly love is how one of his allegedly worst deals in giving a 2nd for Cogliano and giving him that contract has already turned into a move illustrating great vision and would have to be in the pro-column.


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He signed two outstanding contracts with Bonino and Palms.
... would definitely put the Beauchemin contract in that category, as well. Fantastic market value.

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11-28-2013, 04:49 AM
  #56
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I'm on the fence about his ability until we have some playoff success, I don't give a **** how many prospects we have if we don't win when it counts. Hopefully this is the year.

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11-28-2013, 04:58 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
I'm on the fence about his ability until we have some playoff success, I don't give a **** how many prospects we have if we don't win when it counts. Hopefully this is the year.
Realistically, I don't think our "window" has even opened yet.


EDIT: Pretty much what Vipers said.

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11-28-2013, 05:06 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DigitalSea View Post
Realistically, I don't think our "window" has even opened yet.


EDIT: Pretty much what Vipers said.
It's currently in the process of opening. Division title last year, if we can keep up the pace this year another playoff birth and possibly home ice again. Murray's picks are starting to get to the age where they're ready to play decentish roles (and in Fowlers case the role of a top pairing dman) and he has had a #6 overall pick and a guy in Fowler who should have gone top 5 to work with.

I think when you're fortunate enough have Getzlaf and Perry in their prime you should always be looking to make the playoffs. Now we just need to go deep.

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11-28-2013, 05:17 AM
  #59
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Cogliano trade and signing was an interesting one. He made a mistake when he got him assuming he could be our #2 center. I give the credit to BB and Cogs for finding a place int he lineup for him to shine.

I am a big Murray supporter and always have been. The one thing that would have pushed me over the edge, as I said in this thread, is if we had lost Getzlaf AND Perry.

He has made bad trades and singings but they were all very very minor. Compare that to the amount of TERRIBLE signings some teams make. Look at Detroit's 2012 offseason. Every single signing has been a complete fail and they were not small pieces.

Murray is a perfect Gm for the Ducks. He seems to make a ton of friends with former players. He has always had a great relationship based on trust with Teemu. He made the hard decision and fired his friend when it needed to happen. Most of all, he has built this team to be competitive for a long time.

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11-28-2013, 05:32 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
I'm on the fence about his ability until we have some playoff success, I don't give a **** how many prospects we have if we don't win when it counts. Hopefully this is the year.
If you mean a championship, then a good GM can't guarantee that. If you mean multiple trips to the playoffs with a shot to win it, then that is fair.

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11-28-2013, 12:14 PM
  #61
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A lot of luck rides a team to winning the cup usually, not often does the cup winner just steam roll past everyone.

Last year we could have done well, just happened to match up against the only team that had our number.

He has built a strong core of young/older players, he has done well with his FA signings which needs to fill holes. A cup itself requires much more from the players, he can give the best team but if guys like Perry don't score, not much is going to happen.

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11-28-2013, 12:47 PM
  #62
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I remember Burke a few years back said that as a GM you need to make sure your team is in the final 4 every year - that's how you know you're in the sweet spot. Being a Burke disciple I imagine Murray has the same litmus test.

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11-28-2013, 01:12 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus078 View Post
I have to admit, I see Bob as a great GM. He had his flaws but over the last years he put together an awesome amateur scouting staff, he managed to get Nieds into front office, he put great goalie coaches in position. He made a big trade with solid return. He signed two outstanding contracts with Bonino and Palms. He signed a very good coach after sacking a friend. He signed the two cornerstones although in my opinion for a little too much money (Getzlaf 8, Perry 7.5-8 would have been right IMHO)

Ladies and gentlemen, believe it or not, we have a real good GM with a strong team working here.

PS.: On the downside, he needs to fix the coaching problem in Norfolk.
agree with both you and viper

dont forget what a headscratcher the cogs signing was at the time, and lets not forget the pearl trade (yes its early and i think BB had a big hand in that) but he pulled that out of his arse....i dont know if is a good thing or not and maybe some agree but i feel like just as i feel we have a sense of what BM is doing, he does a weird move that makes you go "what"...i mean just recently the holand deal and jackman, but i have learned to trust BM (or the staff) with these things

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11-28-2013, 01:31 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
Cogliano trade and signing was an interesting one. He made a mistake when he got him assuming he could be our #2 center. I give the credit to BB and Cogs for finding a place int he lineup for him to shine.
That was never the case. Ever. He was acquired in hopes that he could be the third line center, however.

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11-28-2013, 01:31 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Damn Skippy View Post
I remember Burke a few years back said that as a GM you need to make sure your team is in the final 4 every year - that's how you know you're in the sweet spot. Being a Burke disciple I imagine Murray has the same litmus test.
Final 4 in our conference or final 4 as in conference finals?

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11-28-2013, 02:14 PM
  #66
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I haven't been truly mad at Murray since he held onto Carlyle for far too long. But that worked out even, because he was tossed just and Boudreau was getting the boot in Washington. Which makes me wonder if Murray heard about BB being on the job market soon, and wanted a seamless transition from one coach to another.

Either way, I'm really high on him right now with all the young guns he's drafted doing so well.

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11-28-2013, 02:41 PM
  #67
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if BM were to ever leave. we need to find a way to keep that scouting staff here.. they're just too good

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11-28-2013, 03:01 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
If you mean a championship, then a good GM can't guarantee that. If you mean multiple trips to the playoffs with a shot to win it, then that is fair.
I mean winning series more than anything. I realize how hard championships are to come by, not even the Pens with Crosby and Malkin can guarantee a championship in any given year.

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if BM were to ever leave. we need to find a way to keep that scouting staff here.. they're just too good
We should be alright in retaining scouts. Madden was hired before BM had fully arrived and McNabb (who is the guy most responsible for our College scouting) have been here forever.

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11-28-2013, 03:22 PM
  #69
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Final 4 in our conference or final 4 as in conference finals?
Conference finals. He said it right after the Cup I think, so we were final 4 two years in a row.

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11-28-2013, 03:29 PM
  #70
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Did people seriously think the retool was taking too long? You look at all the full-on rebuilds that take forever, and Murray turned this franchise around while keeping the team in playoff contention most years. Considering what he was given, that's pretty incredible.

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11-28-2013, 05:02 PM
  #71
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We were never in a situation we had to re-build. When Murray took over he had two 23 year olds in Getzlaf & Perry under contract for 5 years and two hall of fame defensemen to work with (say what you will about their ages but those are two quality assets as we saw when Pronger was dealt). The only criticism I have of Burke is the poor 06 and 07 drafts and the McDonald move. Other than that he left Murray in a pretty good situation although most will disagree even if at the time most still looked at Burke in a favorable light.

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11-28-2013, 05:28 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
We were never in a situation we had to re-build. When Murray took over he had two 23 year olds in Getzlaf & Perry under contract for 5 years and two hall of fame defensemen to work with (say what you will about their ages but those are two quality assets as we saw when Pronger was dealt). The only criticism I have of Burke is the poor 06 and 07 drafts and the McDonald move. Other than that he left Murray in a pretty good situation although most will disagree even if at the time most still looked at Burke in a favorable light.
I don't think you can describe zero cap space, zero NHL quality prospects in your farm system, and a large number of expiring contracts with players who all intended to explore the market to get raises (including the entire shutdown line that allowed you to win the cup) as a "pretty good" situation.

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11-28-2013, 05:57 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
I don't think you can describe zero cap space, zero NHL quality prospects in your farm system, and a large number of expiring contracts with players who all intended to explore the market to get raises (including the entire shutdown line that allowed you to win the cup) as a "pretty good" situation.
I'll agree to disagree. I went over the assets we had in another thread a while ago it wasn't that dire. Cap space was an issue I'll give you that and depth past Pronger/Nieds/Beauch on the backend was also an issue. Burke left 3 awesome pieces up front in Getz/Perry/Ryan with a prime Kunitz all under contract, you should never have to undergo a rebuild with those pieces in place.

As for the expiring contracts, they were all quality assets that Murray was able to use to generate prospects/picks from (Bonino being the best example of someone we received).

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11-28-2013, 06:13 PM
  #74
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I'll agree to disagree. I went over the assets we had in another thread a while ago it wasn't that dire. Cap space was an issue I'll give you that and depth past Pronger/Nieds/Beauch on the backend was also an issue. Burke left 3 awesome pieces up front in Getz/Perry/Ryan with a prime Kunitz all under contract, you should never have to undergo a rebuild with those pieces in place.

As for the expiring contracts, they were all quality assets that Murray was able to use to generate prospects/picks from (Bonino being the best example of someone we received).
I'm not saying it was bad (lottery ticket rebuild level) but I just don't think a situation with as many holes as he had and no ability to fill those holes with free agents (due to the cap) or appropriately from within (because the prospects needed were sent elsewhere) can be described as "pretty good" either. He had one dominant line, one legitimate 2nd line player, Ryan who wasn't really proven yet, no legitimate 3rd line players, and no defensive depth past the #3 (taking free agents into account). No rebuild necessary, but absolutely a retool to be anything other than a bubble playoff team. One line teams don't amount to anything.

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Old
11-28-2013, 08:04 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
I'm not saying it was bad (lottery ticket rebuild level) but I just don't think a situation with as many holes as he had and no ability to fill those holes with free agents (due to the cap) or appropriately from within (because the prospects needed were sent elsewhere) can be described as "pretty good" either. He had one dominant line, one legitimate 2nd line player, Ryan who wasn't really proven yet, no legitimate 3rd line players, and no defensive depth past the #3 (taking free agents into account). No rebuild necessary, but absolutely a retool to be anything other than a bubble playoff team. One line teams don't amount to anything.
That's fair enough. I can certainly see your side and I agree with a lot of your points.

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