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August 2012: Scott Hartnell Signs Extension (6 years, $4.75m cap hit, limited NMC)

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11-27-2013, 11:08 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
If you look at similar contracts around the league it's really not a bad contract as long as he can be average Hartnell. If he was having 30/30 seasons every year he would be underpaid.

Everyone knows Hartnell is streaky and considering we couldn't get much for him in a trade, if he even waived his NMC, and the hole left by his departure (net presence and gritty board guy), I think it would be smart to hold on to him. He'll turn it around eventually and probably end up being a key component to the teams best line like he's done time and time again (Leino-Beire-Hartnell, Hartnell-Carter-Lupul, Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr). The only line I can think of that was as good as any of those since Hartnell has been in Philly was the Knuble-Richard-Gagne line.

Only two years since 05-06 Hartnell hasn't hit 22 or more goals, the season he was going through a divorce and last year when he was injured and the season consisted of 48 games. Hartnell produces, you just have to put up with some crappy play now and again. Btw, I don't think his play the last couple games has even been that bad.
I'm willing to wait and see if he starts producing at the 20-25 goal clip again. That one timer in the slot the year he was one of the PP goal leaders was his bread and butter. He doesn't get much time to execute it like he used to although last game he let one go but Thomas stoned him. The problem with Hartnell is when he trys to do too much like Simmonds. He skates and falls down all over the place. He has to simplify his game and not get frustrated. Dude plays really dumb sometimes. Again I'm not sure that he's going to not continue to be a frustrating player to watch like he has been since the lockout.

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11-27-2013, 10:13 PM
  #302
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It's frankly a disgrace that this man earns millions to produce nothing and doesn't miss a shift.

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11-27-2013, 10:23 PM
  #303
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yeah how about that unique skillet lirl

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11-27-2013, 10:28 PM
  #304
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I've been holding out on ripping into him because every time I have ripped him for sucking, he's immediately turned it around and made me look foolish. So, I've realized this stretch of suck is actually my fault for refraining from lashing him. I shall rectify that.

Scott Hartnell is the suckiest stack of suckiness that has ever sucked around a hockey rink. He sucks so hard, Hoover is thinking of changing their name to Hartnell. Black holes have posters of Hartnell in their rooms, and they spend their free time fantasizing about sucking as hard as Hartnell. He needs to be traded. All of his belongings need to be traded. Everything and everyone he's touched needs to be traded or burnt in a pit in the woods to remove his sucky taint from the team. He's never, ever going to be good again, and the moment he retires he will be the inaugural member of the Hockey Hall of Shame.

I have included an anatomical representation of Hartnell which explains why he skates like a drunk elk with Parkinson's that wandered onto a frozen lake:




There. That ought to fix him.

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11-27-2013, 10:32 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I've been holding out on ripping into him because every time I have ripped him for sucking, he's immediately turned it around and made me look foolish.

There. That ought to fix him.


If he still doesn't turn it around, at least this time you won't look like a fool.

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11-27-2013, 10:35 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I've been holding out on ripping into him because every time I have ripped him for sucking, he's immediately turned it around and made me look foolish. So, I've realized this stretch of suck is actually my fault for refraining from lashing him. I shall rectify that.

Scott Hartnell is the suckiest stack of suckiness that has ever sucked around a hockey rink. He sucks so hard, Hoover is thinking of changing their name to Hartnell. Black holes have posters of Hartnell in their rooms, and they spend their free time fantasizing about sucking as hard as Hartnell. He needs to be traded. All of his belongings need to be traded. Everything and everyone he's touched needs to be traded or burnt in a pit in the woods to remove his sucky taint from the team. He's never, ever going to be good again, and the moment he retires he will be the inaugural member of the Hockey Hall of Shame.

I have included an anatomical representation of Hartnell which explains why he skates like a drunk elk with Parkinson's that wandered onto a frozen lake:




There. That ought to fix him.
lirl
this is perfect

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11-27-2013, 10:36 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I've been holding out on ripping into him because every time I have ripped him for sucking, he's immediately turned it around and made me look foolish. So, I've realized this stretch of suck is actually my fault for refraining from lashing him. I shall rectify that.

Scott Hartnell is the suckiest stack of suckiness that has ever sucked around a hockey rink. He sucks so hard, Hoover is thinking of changing their name to Hartnell. Black holes have posters of Hartnell in their rooms, and they spend their free time fantasizing about sucking as hard as Hartnell. He needs to be traded. All of his belongings need to be traded. Everything and everyone he's touched needs to be traded or burnt in a pit in the woods to remove his sucky taint from the team. He's never, ever going to be good again, and the moment he retires he will be the inaugural member of the Hockey Hall of Shame.

I have included an anatomical representation of Hartnell which explains why he skates like a drunk elk with Parkinson's that wandered onto a frozen lake:




There. That ought to fix him.
No wonder his wife left him.

That thing must hurt like hell... asking for a ruptured kidney.

Edit: I do hope he turns it round... he is a great player when playing well, on his game and in a groove. He is not getting space to get shots off though.

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11-27-2013, 11:06 PM
  #308
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Jake and G were worse tonight IMO. At least he had a few big hits, took and drew a penalty to go along with a fight to try and energize the team.

G was a turnover machine and Jake looked lazy, not moving his feet. They are a very frustrating line to watch cause when all three are on that has the potential to be an amazing line.

Hartnell needs to find his game and soon if this team is going to be a playoff team. Wake up Scotty!! And the rest of you ****ers!!

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11-27-2013, 11:30 PM
  #309
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The problem with Hartnell for me is that even when he's on his game he's not all that game changing or top-end of a player for lack of better phrasing. Even when on his game he's only good for scoring goals off the rush and screening/deflecting in front of the opposing goalie. Pretty much every other area of his game is nothing special or sub-par.

Doesn't help that we have a younger version of him that's more well-rounded in some ways in Simmonds.

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11-28-2013, 03:11 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Jake and G were worse tonight IMO. At least he had a few big hits, took and drew a penalty to go along with a fight to try and energize the team.

G was a turnover machine and Jake looked lazy, not moving his feet. They are a very frustrating line to watch cause when all three are on that has the potential to be an amazing line.

Hartnell needs to find his game and soon if this team is going to be a playoff team. Wake up Scotty!! And the rest of you ****ers!!
^^This. G and Jake are bothering me more.

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11-28-2013, 07:19 AM
  #311
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At least G made a great play to get us a goal. Hartnell had no impact again except on the penalty sheet.

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11-28-2013, 08:27 AM
  #312
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Problem with Harts is that hes trying too hard.
He should stop running around and start to positioning himself more better on ice.
Also hes way down on shooting percentage,half of 37 goal season.
Lets face it,that contract is almost unmovable and he being Gs GF almost guarantee him 1.line job for next 3-4 season unless Chief shows some balls.

3. line job is for him years to come and maybe 2.unit PP because he has decent shot.

Also it is hard to trying to learn how to skate when you are 31 but it can be done to some extent,so skating school and losing some weight next summer for Harts.

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11-28-2013, 08:33 AM
  #313
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It's frankly a disgrace that this man earns millions to produce nothing and doesn't miss a shift.
I think it's a disgrace that Holmgren granted him a NMC into his contract. Hartnell is constantly considered to be a scorer because of the one season he played with Jagr ( the only player who inspired Hartnell to actually work out and take his job seriously). Since then, Jagr is gone, and so is Hartnell's worth!

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11-28-2013, 11:48 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by aceman80 View Post
Problem with Harts is that hes trying too hard.
He should stop running around and start to positioning himself more better on ice.
Also hes way down on shooting percentage,half of 37 goal season.
Lets face it,that contract is almost unmovable and he being Gs GF almost guarantee him 1.line job for next 3-4 season unless Chief shows some balls.

3. line job is for him years to come and maybe 2.unit PP because he has decent shot.

Also it is hard to trying to learn how to skate when you are 31 but it can be done to some extent,so skating school and losing some weight next summer for Harts.
Him and G are very close friends. Hartnell is G's wingman in more ways than 1. However I think they could be broken up without G pouting or anything. G needs to move back in with Briere's kids and be uncle Claude ...

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11-28-2013, 12:24 PM
  #315
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I love Hartnell, always have, and thought he was underrated before his breakout year.

However, the last two seasons Hartnell is half the player he was. He used to be consistently top 3 in even strength production. (every year from 08-09 to 11-12, even when we had Briere, Gags, Carter, Richards)

Now he is bottom 3 amongst forward in the last two seasons, production wise he is playing like a 3/4th liner... honestly, even with G and Jake playing with him and producing at a far higher level. Knuble, McGinn and Fedotenko outproduced him last year, Hall has this year and Rinaldo is pretty even with him.

His shot % is massively down, and in addition he has had a stupidly low number of assists over 50~games now on the top line for most of them... 6 assists in 52 games... shooting at sub 10% in that time... with extensive PP time and top line minutes.

He has 10 EV points in 52 games as well, and been on ice for 17 in 52. He was on ice for 236 in the 4 years before... in 327 games... so per 50 he was getting 36 GF while on.

So the goals scored while he is on ice in the last 2 seasons have more than halfed, and he is bottom three on the team. Yet G's GF while on is still top 2 on the team in that time. (G 32 each 50 games played, Jake 29 each 50, Hartnell 16 each 50.)

Hartnell has pretty much been an anchor for G and V this and last season. Jake and G are producing at close to double his rate between them... at EV strength!

2012-now (72 games)
G: 0.907 PPG
Jake: 0.805 PPG
Hartnell: 0.35 PPG

Old Hartnell: 0.67 PPG (over 4 years)

And that is being each others most common linemates and being on the same PP unit during that time.

2012-now (EV GFON)
G: 0.64 per game
Jake: 0.58 per game
Hartnell: 0.32 per game

Old Hartnell: 0.72 per game (over 4 years)

So at even strength his production is half of G and V, and overall his production is around 40% of G and V in that time. So he is dragging the PP down as well... but is seemingly heavily impacting on G and V at EV strength. It is actually quite amazing that 3 guys who have played with each other ~60% of the time (75% this year, 50% last year in TOI% when all playing) over the games they have played to have such disparate stats. It pretty much means that G and V are producing at a far higher rate when Hartnell is not on the ice.

This year Hartnell has been with G 80% of all TOI when dressed, while being a black hole.

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11-28-2013, 01:47 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by aceman80 View Post
Problem with Harts is that hes trying too hard.
He should stop running around and start to positioning himself more better on ice.
Also hes way down on shooting percentage,half of 37 goal season.
Lets face it,that contract is almost unmovable and he being Gs GF almost guarantee him 1.line job for next 3-4 season unless Chief shows some balls.

3. line job is for him years to come and maybe 2.unit PP because he has decent shot.

Also it is hard to trying to learn how to skate when you are 31 but it can be done to some extent,so skating school and losing some weight next summer for Harts.
Problem is never in trying too hard. Problem is that he isn't very good. He cashed in on a career year after he only had one good year during the duration of his previous contract, and then a member of that line he was on not being brought back, on top of having unsustainable percentages. Career high shooting percentages don't become constants at 29 years old. Granted, he did still take less than he would (not could) had he his the open market, but that doesn't save us from a bad contract. He could return to that form, but it will never be with any sort of reliable consistency. And guys like that shouldn't be getting 6-year contracts in their mid-30s.

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11-28-2013, 02:22 PM
  #317
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Schenn - Roo - vora
Downie - vinny - Simmonds
Hart - coots- Read
Raffl - hall - Rinaldo

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11-28-2013, 02:32 PM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJim View Post
I think it's a disgrace that Holmgren granted him a NMC into his contract. Hartnell is constantly considered to be a scorer because of the one season he played with Jagr ( the only player who inspired Hartnell to actually work out and take his job seriously). Since then, Jagr is gone, and so is Hartnell's worth!
What should Scott Hartnell's contract be and why? If you think he could have been had for less than $4.75 million, explain your reasoning. I'm interested in hearing what you think a 10+ year veteran, coming off a 37 goal season and having scored at least 22 goals in all but one of the prior seven seasons would be entitled to. What would his value have been on the open market? Less than $4.75 million?

Similarly, if your problem is simply with the NMC, explain why. Would you have been ok paying him more money? How much more? Do you think he would have accepted the deal without the NMC and Homer just gave it to him? Is the NMC a deal breaker that you would have let him walk over the NMC?

If your opinion is just that you think he shouldn't have been re-signed, once again, explain why. You would have been ok letting one of the team's most consistent scorers over the past decade or so (and leading goal scorer from the prior year) walk for nothing? How would the Flyers have replaced his production?

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11-28-2013, 02:33 PM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
Schenn - Roo - vora
Downie - vinny - Simmonds
Hart - coots- Read
Raffl - hall - Rinaldo
I think that is probably what I would do as well... it is not fair on Couts and Read atm, and that line has been the best since Downie got here, but who knows, they have been playing great (Couts and Read) for most of the season, even before Downie (though he has definitely made the line click.)

Maybe they could spark Hartnell, and I am sure that the first line would get more points, Hartnell cannot be put with Simmonds, so that is moving him to the 2nd out of the window.

Also, the 2nd line needs a passing kind of guy... Vinny, Simmer and Schenn all like to shoot... and Downie has a nice pass on him. And the first needs a guy who can shoot, and Schenn can.

Tbf so long as G and V and Couts and Read stay together, and Hartnell is not with Simmer or the top line it would not be too bad. That does not really leave many options though.

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11-28-2013, 04:07 PM
  #320
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I knew the Flyers would live to regret giving Hartnell a six year contract. Just hoped it would be in year 4 or 5..not year 1. Stupid idea. Hartnell isnt a franchise type of player that you give a 6 year contract to. The moron also needs to stay off twitter.

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11-28-2013, 09:30 PM
  #321
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Career high shooting percentages don't become constants at 29 years old
His average shooting % is about 13 in Flyers uniform.
After megadeal downhill.
You can and should practice your shot,i just think he got lazy and stopped practicing.
Age does NOT affect shooting % as much people think.

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11-28-2013, 09:31 PM
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how would the flyers have replaced his production?
jvr?

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11-28-2013, 10:54 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
What should Scott Hartnell's contract be and why? If you think he could have been had for less than $4.75 million, explain your reasoning. I'm interested in hearing what you think a 10+ year veteran, coming off a 37 goal season and having scored at least 22 goals in all but one of the prior seven seasons would be entitled to. What would his value have been on the open market? Less than $4.75 million?

Similarly, if your problem is simply with the NMC, explain why. Would you have been ok paying him more money? How much more? Do you think he would have accepted the deal without the NMC and Homer just gave it to him? Is the NMC a deal breaker that you would have let him walk over the NMC?

If your opinion is just that you think he shouldn't have been re-signed, once again, explain why. You would have been ok letting one of the team's most consistent scorers over the past decade or so (and leading goal scorer from the prior year) walk for nothing? How would the Flyers have replaced his production?
When he came to the Flyers he was considered a grinder/fighter, after working within Lavy's system he improved into an offensive threat. The year when Jagr was on the team, Hartnell began working out with Jagr. Overnight drills on the ice, eating healthier, working out on cardio, doing everything that Jagr has been doing throughout his career.
After Jagr left, Hartnell went back to his clownish behavior, stopped working out with any diligence, and his ability and effectiveness has been lessened.
I am not a GM, nor would I wish to be a GM. All I remarked about is his lack of effort in my previous post. I do not like Holmgren's habit of awarding players with NTC or NMC's. It's very like granting an educator tenure after a number of years on duty. Too often the players become complacent after receiving those assurances within their contracts. I'd rather see the GM take control of his players, rather than seeing the agents control the GM....which is what has happened too often to this francise.

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11-28-2013, 11:01 PM
  #324
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When he came to the Flyers he was considered a grinder/fighter, after working within Lavy's system he improved into an offensive threat. The year when Jagr was on the team, Hartnell began working out with Jagr. Overnight drills on the ice, eating healthier, working out on cardio, doing everything that Jagr has been doing throughout his career.
After Jagr left, Hartnell went back to his clownish behavior, stopped working out with any diligence, and his ability and effectiveness has been lessened.
I am not a GM, nor would I wish to be a GM. All I remarked about is his lack of effort in my previous post. I do not like Holmgren's habit of awarding players with NTC or NMC's. It's very like granting an educator tenure after a number of years on duty. Too often the players become complacent after receiving those assurances within their contracts. I'd rather see the GM take control of his players, rather than seeing the agents control the GM....which is what has happened too often to this francise.
That's not really true, he scored 25 & 22 goals in his final two seasons in Nashville before coming over to the Flyers. That's basically around his career average.

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11-28-2013, 11:36 PM
  #325
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That's not really true, he scored 25 & 22 goals in his final two seasons in Nashville before coming over to the Flyers. That's basically around his career average.
Okay, my mistake. I knew Hartnell as being a tough guy when he came over from Nashville, but I didn't know he had a resume of scoring.
Where is it now, when his team needs it so much?

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