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Battle of the Rebuilds, year end crap totals

View Poll Results: who will have more Pts this year Oilers or Flames
Oilers 131 39.82%
Flames 96 29.18%
if the oilers finish behind the Flames I am becoming a canuck fan 46 13.98%
this poll scares me 56 17.02%
Voters: 329. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-28-2013, 09:47 AM
  #151
Beerfish
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#1 The 'rebuild' will move along a time line as it suits the individual poster.

#2 'Rebuild' is a totally meaningless word because it was never clearly defined as far as any expectations are concerned. As with #1 people apply their own meanings to it.

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11-28-2013, 09:49 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Hockey Nightmare View Post
And you look to the Islanders and they almost seem back to square one, so maybe that's a lesson that improvement can be ephemeral and not always in a straight line.
Yah the islanders like the Oilers look solid on paper.. A whole lot of skill up front but no clear top pairing Dmen and no #1G.

Lesson to be learned: We can add gritty guys like Clutterbuck or another sniper like Vanek but til we fix the back end we are going nowhere..

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11-28-2013, 09:51 PM
  #153
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There is no way that the Oilers should finish behind the Flames. They are stronger at every position except maybe coaching. But Hartley seems to have his warts as well.

No playoffs for either team for years though because the California teams will be strong for a long time.

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11-29-2013, 12:55 AM
  #154
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Until we have a clear cut top pairing, tough to play against forwards, and a starting goalie who is consistent, I think it will be very tough to win games.

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11-29-2013, 01:34 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by LTIR View Post
Yah the islanders like the Oilers look solid on paper.. A whole lot of skill up front but no clear top pairing Dmen and no #1G.

Lesson to be learned: We can add gritty guys like Clutterbuck or another sniper like Vanek but til we fix the back end we are going nowhere..
We're at least taking steps in the right direction though. This offseason will be a huge test if say Girardi or Phaneuf test the market. I'm at the point where if one of the top dmen don't resign, I wouldn't care what MacT pays for them

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11-29-2013, 11:03 AM
  #156
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One thing that needs to be factored into the Flames rebuild is that they have accomplished an important part of their rebuild in year 1...continuity of coaching and Management.
They can build this team and incorporate the same system year after year something this incompetent management couldn't figure out since the Oiler rebuild started.

Oiler coaches during the rebuild...Quinn, Renney, Kruger and Eakins.
Oiler GM's....Tambo and MacT.

The Flames can move forward with their Management/Coaches because they already have solid people in place....something the Oilers failed at.
Hartley us an excellent coach and Feaster/Burke is light years ahead of the Lowe/MacT tandem.

The Flames went to school on the circus up the highway and are starting things off right.

Some arrows are already pointed in the right direction for them so I would expect their rebuild to be a lot more efficient.
I couldn't disagree more, the Flames are in a VERY tough position because everyone in Calgary knows Hartley & Feaster are lame ducks and will both be canned within the next two years.

While this might not be the correct direction for their team to take you have to know Burke wants his own people in there and it's only a matter of time before that happens.

I know you have been fairly positive about the Flames direction in the past but I don't think you can disagree they are in a for a bunch of very lean years and will likely still be a lottery in three seasons when "hopefully" the Oilers are icing a competitive squad.

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11-29-2013, 11:20 AM
  #157
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IF you decide the rebuild started with the Hall draft or the oilers picking the date.

I have been arguing for awhile the start date was the moment Smyth got traded for O'Mera, Nilson and a first that for me is the start date-- after that the oilers just refeused to admit that they were in the rebuild--all moves. they did in the three years after that trade--almost all were stupid. Bad trades and signings. For me this is year 7 ( I start with the Gagner draft)But it makes people and the oiler management to say the rebuild started with the Hall draft--but it started before that
In what ways was anything they did between trading Smyth and tanking for Hall consistent with a rebuilding team? The Vanek and Penner to offer sheets? Signing Khabibulin?

Rebuild and sucking are not the same thing.

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11-29-2013, 12:19 PM
  #158
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I couldn't disagree more, the Flames are in a VERY tough position because everyone in Calgary knows Hartley & Feaster are lame ducks and will both be canned within the next two years.

While this might not be the correct direction for their team to take you have to know Burke wants his own people in there and it's only a matter of time before that happens.

I know you have been fairly positive about the Flames direction in the past but I don't think you can disagree they are in a for a bunch of very lean years and will likely still be a lottery in three seasons when "hopefully" the Oilers are icing a competitive squad.
Burke is light years smarter than Lowe. For one thing he understands the importance of experience and continuity especially when it comes to the coaching staff. Hartley is a solid coach...no reason to replace him unless the team quits on him.

Its not that I am fairly positive about the Flames rebuild...its more about how incompetent the Oilers have been during their rebuild. If you look at things objectively (which is very hard for most Oiler fans to do) the Flames have already done more right than the Oilers.

I see many more things in place for the Flames than I did for the Oilers over the last 4 years. The Flames have a solid veteran presence in Wideman, Giordano,Glencross, Hudler et al which is critical when you are adding young players to the mix. They have coaching continuity with an experienced coach and a strong system. The Flames need to find a goalie (with the FA crop this off season and plenty of cap space that shouldnt be an issue).

So the Flames have pieces in place that the Oilers are still trying to fix...a good defence, good veteran support, a gritty lineup, coaching continuity, a smart hockey man in Burke and cap space.

The Oilers screwed up royally by hanging on to useless veteran players and waited until the 4th year to do anything to help that cause.
The Oilers STILL have a bad defence despite the fact they have maxed out the cap year after year. They still are too easy to play against 4 years into the rebuild.
Its mind boggling how a team can still be so bad and have little to no cap room.
They have absolutely no coaching continuity and changed they system almost every year. They decided that the solution to the system and the coaching was to hire a rookie coach.

To top things off they have an incompetent buffoon like Lowe still on staff because he is buddies with the owner. The same can probably be said for Bucky.
Ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is that the Oilers have f-ed up this rebuild beyond belief. There is really no way to do it worse.


Last edited by guymez: 11-29-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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11-29-2013, 12:29 PM
  #159
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Rebuilds are hard to gauge, obviously ours hasn't gone as great as we'd all have hoped.

But the Islanders and Tampa Bay have been all over the place in their rebuilds too ... looks like the Islanders are in trouble again this year and Tampa just recently missed the playoffs to be able to take Drouin, another high pick.

Colorado sucked worse than us just 8 months ago. Lets see how Calgary does as a franchise without Kiprusoff there to turn their fortunes, they were awful before he got there and are coming back to earth pretty quickly. Though yes, I will give them that Burke has a solid track record.

Sometimes rebuilds can look like they're going well early on too ... we all thought we were on the right track with Gagner/Cogs/Nilsson and almost damn near made the playoffs.

We need to get more players on the roster who create open ice with size and can go retrieve pucks. Joensuu is a good pick up, need about 1-2 more of him. And we need an defensive upgrade on our top 4 that isn't a rookie.

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11-29-2013, 01:10 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Burke is light years smarter than Lowe. For one thing he understands the importance of experience and continuity especially when it comes to the coaching staff. Hartley is a solid coach...no reason to replace him unless the team quits on him.

Its not that I am fairly positive about the Flames rebuild...its more about how incompetent the Oilers have been during their rebuild. If you look at things objectively (which is very hard for most Oiler fans to do) the Flames have already done more right than the Oilers.

I see many more things in place for the Flames than I did for the Oilers over the last 4 years. The Flames have a solid veteran presence in Wideman, Giordano,Glencross, Hudler et al which is critical when you are adding young players to the mix. They have coaching continuity with an experienced coach and a strong system. The Flames need to find a goalie (with the FA crop this off season and plenty of cap space that shouldnt be an issue).

So the Flames have pieces in place that the Oilers are still trying to fix...a good defence, good veteran support, a gritty lineup, coaching continuity, a smart hockey man in Burke and cap space.

The Oilers screwed up royally by hanging on to useless veteran players and waited until the 4th year to do anything to help that cause.
The Oilers STILL have a bad defence despite the fact they have maxed out the cap year after year. They still are too easy to play against 4 years into the rebuild.
Its mind boggling how a team can still be so bad and have little to no cap room.
They have absolutely no coaching continuity and changed they system almost every year. They decided that the solution to the system and the coaching was to hire a rookie coach.

To top things off they have an incompetent buffoon like Lowe still on staff because he is buddies with the owner. The same can probably be said for Bucky.
Ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is that the Oilers have f-ed up this rebuild beyond belief. There is really no way to do it worse.
By no means do I want to defend the Oilers and their rebuild because they've made some blunders and will probably make more but most of this is just silly. Comparing them to the Flames? Really? Flames suck and will for years. At least the Oil have some parts in place in regards to offense, as well as some possible top line pairs in Nurse/Klefbom.

Saying the Oilers never had players that were considered tough or they had no experienced veterans during their rebuild is just plain wrong...as long as you understand the rebuild started after Pronger and the rest left in '07.

To me, it looks like the Flames are where the Oil were in 08/09..perhaps worse. Essentially, they could be years away from even coming close to the playoffs.

In 2008/2009, the Oil had:


Kyle Brodziak
Andrew Cogliano
Erik Cole
Sam Gagner
Tom Gilbert
Denis Grebeskov
Ales Hemsky
Shawn Horcoff
Steve MacIntyre
Ethan Moreau
Robert Nilsson
Dustin Penner
Fernando Pisani
Marc Pouliot
Liam Reddox
Ladislav Smid
Sheldon Souray
Steve Staios
Zack Stortini
Jason Strudwick
Lubomir Visnovsky

Toughness, youth, skill, just drafted Eberle, had Gagner, Nilsson and Cogs as the 'next' top line, Hemmer, lots of tough players and veterans.

That looked like a much better lineup than Calgary has but, essentially, they didn't get it done.

All Calgary has over the Oil rebuild at the moment is Burke and his history. We'll see how well that goes for them.

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11-29-2013, 02:55 PM
  #161
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Burke is light years smarter than Lowe. For one thing he understands the importance of experience and continuity especially when it comes to the coaching staff. Hartley is a solid coach...no reason to replace him unless the team quits on him.

Its not that I am fairly positive about the Flames rebuild...its more about how incompetent the Oilers have been during their rebuild. If you look at things objectively (which is very hard for most Oiler fans to do) the Flames have already done more right than the Oilers.

I see many more things in place for the Flames than I did for the Oilers over the last 4 years. The Flames have a solid veteran presence in Wideman, Giordano,Glencross, Hudler et al which is critical when you are adding young players to the mix. They have coaching continuity with an experienced coach and a strong system. The Flames need to find a goalie (with the FA crop this off season and plenty of cap space that shouldnt be an issue).

So the Flames have pieces in place that the Oilers are still trying to fix...a good defence, good veteran support, a gritty lineup, coaching continuity, a smart hockey man in Burke and cap space.

The Oilers screwed up royally by hanging on to useless veteran players and waited until the 4th year to do anything to help that cause.
The Oilers STILL have a bad defence despite the fact they have maxed out the cap year after year. They still are too easy to play against 4 years into the rebuild.
Its mind boggling how a team can still be so bad and have little to no cap room.
They have absolutely no coaching continuity and changed they system almost every year. They decided that the solution to the system and the coaching was to hire a rookie coach.

To top things off they have an incompetent buffoon like Lowe still on staff because he is buddies with the owner. The same can probably be said for Bucky.
Ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is that the Oilers have f-ed up this rebuild beyond belief. There is really no way to do it worse.
I don't disagree about Hartley being a good coach but Burke has a track record and in every situation he has always put his own people in place. You expect he will change that now? The season ticket holders know Hartley isn't the Flames long term solution.

I think if you look at the Oilers situation objectively you'll see a number things went worse than most would have imagined to start the year. I don't need to list all of the disappointments but even adequate goaltending would have helped a lot.

As for the veteran leadership, I don't think you've watched them enough....Glencross & Wideman have been beyond awful. Wideman, simply can't defend to save his life and the best thing Glencross has done for this team is get injured because the play has died on his stick all year. Gio & Hudler have been great but Hudler is having a career year and there is still a lot of questions in regards to Gio. Furthermore, to call their defense good is laughable at best. Beyond Giordano & amazingly Russel this year they have been awful and are actually worse from a GA standpoint then the Oil.

As for the Oilers, no question that continuity has been an issue but Eakins & MacT have been steadfast in their opinions that this IS and issue so I don't think we'll see change there anytime soon. Eakins system is working and while it's been a transition, their play hasn't been as bad as the numbers indicate, despite putrid tending to start the year. They have a good forward core and as annoying as the rebuild has been there are pieces in place for this team to take a step forward. Is it certain? No, but the D core is evolving, the kids are learning and they aren't as far off as this season has shown. I'm not hear to tell you how to view the Oilers but if you're truly being objective about things, you'll see they aren't as far away as the early results have indicated.

Regardless of "Lowe is terrible etc." Every neutral fan and to be honest most Flames fans understand the Oilers are well beyond the Flames from a building standpoint. I share 8 seats with a group of 20 guys here in Calgary, 17 Flames fans 3 outsiders. Obviously, I hear a lot about why the Oilers suck but even this extremely biased group has the opinion that Oilers are going come out of this thing with a strong squad and eventually they will be at the very least a contending team.

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11-29-2013, 03:55 PM
  #162
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Rebuilds are hard to gauge, obviously ours hasn't gone as great as we'd all have hoped.
I feel like people were expecting a Chicago Pittsburgh type of result where all of a sudden the team just explodes (not to be an ass, but I think you were one of them, no?). Really, those are more the exception than the rule.

Quote:
But the Islanders and Tampa Bay have been all over the place in their rebuilds too ... looks like the Islanders are in trouble again this year and Tampa just recently missed the playoffs to be able to take Drouin, another high pick.
Yeah Tampa has had five top 10 picks in the last 6 years and are only now starting to look like a real threat (albeit in the lesser conference). We'll probably collect a top 10 pick this year, making it five straight. I doubt we do it again next season.

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11-29-2013, 07:36 PM
  #163
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#1 The 'rebuild' will move along a time line as it suits the individual poster.

#2 'Rebuild' is a totally meaningless word because it was never clearly defined as far as any expectations are concerned. As with #1 people apply their own meanings to it.
do you have the actual announcement where the Avs bosses announced the rebuild?

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12-16-2013, 05:09 AM
  #164
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updated

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12-25-2013, 08:28 AM
  #165
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#1 The 'rebuild' will move along a time line as it suits the individual poster.

#2 'Rebuild' is a totally meaningless word because it was never clearly defined as far as any expectations are concerned. As with #1 people apply their own meanings to it.
for me the oilers and avs started the rebuild at the same time

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01-28-2014, 03:45 PM
  #166
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I've noticed a lot of talk lately about the Canucks entering a rebuild phase - or at least being in a position to have that debate.

Now, I don't want to focus on the current status of the Oiler rebuild (not sure any Oiler fans do) but I do want to ask the following:

- Do you still think the Oilers' decision to rebuild was the right one?
- Given Calgary's closeup view of the Oilers, did they make their decision to rebuild soon enough? (Should they have even entered a rebuilding phase?)
- Have the Oilers made the rebuild concept more/less palatable to other teams?
- Do you think Flames/Canucks and other teams faced with a rebuild will actually learn anything from the Oilers mistakes?

I find it very interesting how easy it is to crap on the Oilers situation but I do think the initial decision to rebuild was the right one - and a very difficult one.

And I also think the Flames should endure more scrutiny for not rebuilding sooner and letting their most valuable assets fade to a point they yielded little in return, especially when all they had to do was look up the road to see what fate awaited them.

Anyway, just pondering.

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01-28-2014, 03:56 PM
  #167
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Build from the back out or build through the middle
Thats what everyone should be learning from the Oilers.


I believe we made the right picks at #1... but we didn't actually have to make those picks. Making moves is easier said then done though.


Watch the Flames end up getting Ekblad this year and Eichel or McDavid next year.

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01-28-2014, 04:05 PM
  #168
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will update the OP when I am able to edit my posts-- in the Penalty box for misbehaving

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01-28-2014, 04:16 PM
  #169
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I am amused at how some canuck fans think they are about 5 years away from starting a rebuild or that they have pieces in place to avoid one all together. However, many of them see through the smoke and mirrors of Gillis and realize that he might not be the greatest GM in the world after all.

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01-28-2014, 05:19 PM
  #170
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RIP HFoilers posters. Good luck with the Canucks.

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01-28-2014, 05:56 PM
  #171
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I guess I just find it kind of funny all the snickering from other fanbases at the Oiler wreckage when their team either (A) just scraped up against the iceberg or (B) is headed straight for it.

That said, I realize the media is generally focused on what's happening right now and in that respect the Oilers suck when they should be better, the Flames are where they should be (although could be ahead of the curve) and the Canucks are in OK shape (relatively speaking).

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02-03-2014, 03:37 PM
  #172
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So we are 7 points back with 25 games left and the phlegms have 2 games in hand. Reading some of the posts on the 1st few pages of thus thread makes one tearful.

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02-03-2014, 11:21 PM
  #173
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Flames fan coming in peace -

Interesting thread! I think we'll finish ahead of the oil this year, whereas next year the real struggle begins once we shed some vets.

Stay true to your heart Edmonton.

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02-04-2014, 12:06 AM
  #174
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This thread is comedy gold.

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02-04-2014, 09:53 AM
  #175
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Flames fan coming in peace -

Interesting thread! I think we'll finish ahead of the oil this year, whereas next year the real struggle begins once we shed some vets.

Stay true to your heart Edmonton.
I think we just suck and you guys finishing ahead of this year is okay by me. Should not have happened but you have a way better D core, better goaltending than we have had all year and one hell of a better coach.

Too bad six rings and co. can't see that.

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