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Old
11-07-2013, 07:07 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
Even those two couldn't do it alone
Those two never went 14 games without a goal.

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11-07-2013, 07:14 PM
  #177
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Those two never went 14 games without a goal.
Actually they both did. Gretzky at 21 games, Lemieux fell short at 10 games.

Are you seriously comparing Giroux to those two though? You know how insane that is, right? If those are your expectations, no wonder players get run out of town.

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11-07-2013, 07:17 PM
  #178
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Hes getting better and passing good but he needs a sniper to put those passes in the back of the net.

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11-07-2013, 07:28 PM
  #179
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Hes getting better and passing good but he needs a sniper to put those passes in the back of the net.
How about Kessel for two Schenns and a Simmonds... And a 1st round pick.

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11-07-2013, 07:35 PM
  #180
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How about Kessel for two Schenns and a Simmonds... And a 1st round pick.
Why would you even ask that? You should feel shame, to be honest.

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11-07-2013, 07:45 PM
  #181
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Jagr gave Claude space, and defenses someone else to account for... last year Voracek helped at times, but teams are keying on Giroux now because there's no other real threats to worry about. He's also not passing many people "open" as much as years past with his creativity.

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11-07-2013, 07:55 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
ummm the fact that EVERY person who posts here, currently has as many goals this year in the NHL as Giroux has is whats really laffable...
now that's funny

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11-10-2013, 12:20 PM
  #183
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11-11-2013, 11:22 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Actually they both did. Gretzky at 21 games, Lemieux fell short at 10 games.

Are you seriously comparing Giroux to those two though? You know how insane that is, right? If those are your expectations, no wonder players get run out of town.
I'm pretty sure Gretzky and Lemieux had their slumps or goal less streaks when they were in their late 30's, early 40's, am I not correct?

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11-11-2013, 11:24 AM
  #185
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Yeah. Lemieux had guys like Francis and Jagr and Gretzky had Messier and Kurri.

Gretzky is probably the closest any of them came to carrying a team on his own in LA, and of course with his downright silly domination in his prime. It really goes to show how insane it is to expect a player to carry a struggling team on his own.
Since you brought up Jagr, Jagr carried some of those late 90's Penguins teams on his own. I would say 127 Pts with next leading scorer on his team having as many points as Jagr had assists (83) says he carried that team. Jagr also carried those Rangers teams.

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11-11-2013, 11:25 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I'm pretty sure Gretzky and Lemieux had their slumps or goal less streaks when they were in their late 30's, early 40's, am I not correct?
I'm pretty sure comparing Claude Giroux to the 2 greatest players of all-time, who also played during the highest scoring era the game has ever seen, is ridiculous.

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11-11-2013, 11:35 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I'm pretty sure comparing Claude Giroux to the 2 greatest players of all-time, who also played during the highest scoring era the game has ever seen, is ridiculous.
Still when they were 39-40, they weren't playing in a high scoring era, far from it. In fact some of the players still playing right now were around in Gretzky's and Lemieux' twilight years.


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11-11-2013, 11:46 AM
  #188
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Still when they were 39-40, they weren't playing in a high scoring era, far from it. In fact some of the players still playing right now were around in the Gretzky's and Lemieux' twilight years.
You're right, but they were still Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux, were they not? Mario Lemiuex's pace during his worst statistical season and games played outscores pretty much every single player in the league. 22 points in 26 games in his final season.

Gretzky still had 62 points in 70 games during his final season. They are two guys who could've still played in the league past their retirement year and been effective, because they are the two most gifted forwards hockey has ever seen.

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11-11-2013, 11:48 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Still when they were 39-40, they weren't playing in a high scoring era, far from it. In fact some of the players still playing right now were around in the Gretzky's and Lemieux' twilight years.
I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Giroux isn't as good as Lemieux or Gretzky.

Gretzky had two seasons over 90 points with the Rangers at the tail end of his career, in the heart of the trap era.

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11-11-2013, 12:50 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Still when they were 39-40, they weren't playing in a high scoring era, far from it. In fact some of the players still playing right now were around in Gretzky's and Lemieux' twilight years.
The point was two-fold:

1) The guy was wrong.
2) comparing Giroux to those two as if its a fair standard is outright insane.

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Old
11-28-2013, 07:43 PM
  #191
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Just wondered how much of our offence G is involved in and its relation to Flyers scoring:

Direct involvement (ie points) in team offence. (Total goals in games he played.)

10-11: Giroux involved in 29% of offence. (75/259)
11-12: Giroux involved in 37% of offence. (93/251)
12-13: Giroux involved in 36% of offence. (48/133)
13-14: Giroux involved in 33% of offence. (17/52)

Involvement (ie on ice) in team offence.

10-11: Giroux involved in ~40% of offence. (~103/259)
11-12: Giroux involved in ~45% of offence. (~112/251)
12-13: Giroux involved in 50% of offence. (66/133)
13-14: Giroux involved in 46% of offence. (24/52)

(they have to be ~ as there are no individual stats for 4v4, 4v3, 3v4 and 3v5, so just factor for these goals off % of 5v5, 5v4 and 4v5 involved in that year... considering there are ~15 of these kind of goals in a full year they should not sway it too much, as the most they should be out is ~2 goals a year.(ie say G predicted on ice for 6-7 of them, could be ~4, could be ~9... will only sway % of offence by ~2%)

This year and last I went through the game reports... so they are entirely accurate.

On ice for 50% of all the Flyers goals last year... pretty impressive.

Also... his figures in terms of goals involved in have stayed very similar over 3 years now, but the Flyers overall score less goals now.

This year and last (72 games) he has combined to be involved in:

35% of team offence directly.
49% of team offence on ice for.

Pretty similar to 11-12... at 37% and ~45%. And better % wise than 10-11 when he got 75 points.

If you look at full year across the NHL it is rare for anyone not called Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos to be directly involved in more than 40%. (though top scorers on very low scoring teams also get around this figure... Kopitar a few years back, one of the reasons team to team comparisons are hard/not worth much.) And 35% to 38% usually puts guys in the top ten in the NHL, 37+ top 5.)

I cannot be bothers and I don't have time to look at other teams top guys % on ice! It would be so time consuming and the comparisons between teams are hard/not going to prove much conclusively anyway.

So 11-12 his scoring was pretty much inflated by the team... but when you average his points as a % of team goals against NHL team average goals (~215-225 a year) he ~PPG scorer on an average team (in goals per game.) as he showed last year.

This is just fun really... as tbh the interaction between players and the team also determine goals scored, so it is by no means perfect and comparing players on different teams is hard if not illogical to do (usage, shot %, linemates etc) so if I was qualifying this from a statistical viewpoint I would not say it is a great measure at all... apart from comparing G to himself vs team, but still, G is staying pretty similar in terms of % of team goals involved in. If you look at some other players who have been on this team for a while the same cannot be said. One of the biggest drops happens to be a guy on his line.

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Old
11-28-2013, 10:38 PM
  #192
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I think Claude gets a ton of **** for not single handily saving the day every shift he's on the ice, he is an amazing hockey player, but he has no other solid threat on the ice with him, Jagr gave Roo space to operate, he has Voracek who can get going and be effective but isn't a threat so to speak, and Hartnell he brings his special "skill set" that really doesn't spark fear into opposing teams at all
If the Flyers brought in a sniper and/or finisher I think it would take a ton of pressure off of Claude, yes I know Crosby makes his linemates better, but he also has Malkin, and Neal on his team threats by themselves, I don't think outside of Giroux that the Flyers have players anywhere close to Malkin or even Neal's skill
I am a huge fan of Giroux love his game and his intensity to play the game, and if Homer actually tried to build a team around him instead of using the "classic Flyer template" and stocking the team with over the hill once good players, muckers/grinders, and or the amazing Shelley/Rosehill type amazing locker room guys, I believe Claude and this team would thrive

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11-28-2013, 10:48 PM
  #193
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Giroux problem is strength. Teams allowed him move too freely untill devils were on him in playoffs and i guess other teams took the advice. You push him around, play physical and he can't defend himself.

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11-28-2013, 11:34 PM
  #194
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Giroux problem is strength. Teams allowed him move too freely untill devils were on him in playoffs and i guess other teams took the advice. You push him around, play physical and he can't defend himself.
Yea I noticed that too. I think he's been checked well for awhile now. Hopefully he gets some space either on his own or with line mates

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11-29-2013, 08:11 PM
  #195
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Not playing like a 1st line Center right now. G needs Read or Lecav or Schenn on his line to shoot more. Hartnell can do his thing on the 4th line and it wouldnt make any diffference.

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11-29-2013, 08:27 PM
  #196
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With the way things have shaken out (Couturier emerging/Giroux needing support), it's time to scrap the idea of having a loaded top nine. Our top nine isn't as stacked as we expected it to be, and that can be fine provided we adjust accordingly.

Voracek-Giroux-Lecavalier
Downie-Couturier-Read
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Rinaldo-Hall-Raffl/Rosehill

And give a heavy bias to the top six in ice time. The third line should focus on playing high energy hockey. Let Hartnell/Simmonds primary duties be winning battles in the corners rather than scoring goals. Neither are very productive when they are expected to be go-to goal scorers. If they can just focus on outworking the other team physically, I expect it to give the rest of the guys a boost. Counterintuitively, I also think they will be more productive in such a role since they don't have to occupy roles that don't match their skill sets.

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11-29-2013, 10:49 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
With the way things have shaken out (Couturier emerging/Giroux needing support), it's time to scrap the idea of having a loaded top nine. Our top nine isn't as stacked as we expected it to be, and that can be fine provided we adjust accordingly.

Voracek-Giroux-Lecavalier
Downie-Couturier-Read
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Rinaldo-Hall-Raffl/Rosehill

And give a heavy bias to the top six in ice time. The third line should focus on playing high energy hockey. Let Hartnell/Simmonds primary duties be winning battles in the corners rather than scoring goals. Neither are very productive when they are expected to be go-to goal scorers. If they can just focus on outworking the other team physically, I expect it to give the rest of the guys a boost. Counterintuitively, I also think they will be more productive in such a role since they don't have to occupy roles that don't match their skill sets.
For me, I just do a small shift right now:


Read-Giroux-Voracek
Schenn-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Hartnell-Couturier-Downie
Rinaldo-Hall-Raffl/Rosehill

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11-29-2013, 11:17 PM
  #198
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For me, I just do a small shift right now:


Read-Giroux-Voracek
Schenn-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Hartnell-Couturier-Downie
Rinaldo-Hall-Raffl/Rosehill
Downie-Couturier-Read is just too dominant to break up. It's the perfect line to shutdown the opposition and force turnovers with aggressive forechecking. That line is the biggest reason the team is able to win games at all. You need a trio like that to drive the play in the other direction. I would not be interested to see the Flyers without those three together.

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11-29-2013, 11:28 PM
  #199
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Downie-Couturier-Read is just too dominant to break up. It's the perfect line to shutdown the opposition and force turnovers with aggressive forechecking. That line is the biggest reason the team is able to win games at all. You need a trio like that to drive the play in the other direction. I would not be interested to see the Flyers without those three together.
Agreed, don't touch that line. Whatever you do, don't stick Hartnell with Couts. That poor kid doesn't deserve such an awful punishment.

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11-30-2013, 12:26 AM
  #200
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Keep the Couturier line together since they have been amazing and probably our best line over the last couple of weeks. I would try to put Schenn and Voracek back together, they seemed to have great chemistry last season. I really think that Schenn and Vinny need someone to set them up and Voracek and Giroux need someone to set up. Just keep Simmonds and Hartnell on separate lines.


Harntell-Giroux-Vinny
Simmonds-Schenn-Voracek

Losing Vinny on faceoffs could really matter much since he has been bad this year anyway.

Honestly would't mind just switching Vinny and Giroux and rolling with

Schenn-Giroux-Simmonds
Hartnell-Vinny-Voracek

Both of those lines have someone to carry the puck (Giroux and Voracek), someone who can shoot (Schenn and Vinny), and someone as a net front presence (hartnell and simmonds)

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