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Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Centers)

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Old
11-29-2013, 09:17 PM
  #76
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If Henri Richard was a secondary player on the 60s Canadiens dynasty, then Larry Robinson was a secondary player on the 70s Canadiens dynasty, and Mark Messier and Paul Coffey were secondary players on the Edmonton Oilers dynasty.

Here is a list of every HHOFer on the official 60s dynasty, which won Cups in 1965, 1966, 1968, and 1969:

Jean Beliveau (65, 66, 68, 69)
Henri Richard (65, 66, 68, 69)
Yvan Cournoyer (65, 66, 68, 69)
Dick Duff (65, 66, 68, 69)
Jacques Laperriere (65, 66, 68, 69)
Gump Worsley (65, 66, 68, 69)

Serge Savard (68, 69)
Jacques Lemaire (68, 69)

That's significantly less talent than on any of the NHL's other official dynasties. See This Post for a comparison I made of every official NHL dynasty and the rankings of their players on the 2008 Top 100 list on this board.

Sometimes it seems like this forum punishes Henri Richard for winning too often. I didn't see anyone calling Trottier a "secondary" player on the Islanders dynasty because of Potvin.
The thing is though that Henri joined the Habs right at the beginning of their 1st dynasty and had Jean, his older brother and Harvey on those teams.

At some point the comparisons you made above don't really come close to a center we have , as a group 3rd all time, Harvey who is rated 2nd by this group as well and then Maurice, who no doubt will be ranked as a top 5 winger.

Henri was a fine player but was he ever really the focal point of his team?

Too many other guys in this round have that star quality about them and most of Henri's offensive peak, prime is with the first dynasty group of players.

Other than the fortunate situation of being on so many great SC teams is his career really that much better than a similar player not even up yet, who actually was a star and focal point on his team before being traded to a SC contender?

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11-29-2013, 09:20 PM
  #77
Canadiens1958
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The Facts and Numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Schmidt, Bentley, and Kennedy Year by Year

Milt Schmidt played from 1936-37 to 1954-55. He missed half of 1941-42 and all of 1942-43, 1943-44, and 1944-45 due to World War 2.

Max Bentley played from 1940-41 to 1953-54. He missed all of 1943-44 and 1944-45 due to World War 2.

Ted Kennedy got in a couple games as a 17 year old in 1943-44 and was a full time player from 1944-45 until 1956-57.

To reduce chart clutter, I am cutting off the years 1937 and 1938: Schmidt was the only one of the three players playing and he doesn't have any accolades until 1939. I'm also cutting off the years 1956 and 1957: Kennedy was the only one of the three players playing and he doesn't have any accolades in the final two years of his career.

Note that we only have the top 2 in All Star voting in 1952 and 1953. There's a VERY good chance that Kennedy would have been in the running for "3rd Team All Stars" those years if we had full data. Theses seasons are indicated with "*?*" We also only have top 3 All Star voting in 1949, but there are only a few missing points; nonetheless I've also indicated Bentley and Kennedy with "?" for that season, as they both had solid seasons.

Year Schmidt Points Schmidt PPG Schmidt Hart Schmidt AS Bentley Points Bentley PPG Bentley Hart Bentley ASKennedy Points Kennedy PPG Kennedy Hart Kennedy AS
1939 ---3NANANANANANANANA
1940 1241NANANANANANANANA
1941 1010------NANANANA
1942 18(WAR)8(WAR)(WAR)-20--NANANANA
1943 WARWARWARWAR32-3NANANANA
1944 WARWARWARWARWARWARWARWAR20---
1945 WARWARWARWARWARWARWARWAR5773
1946 ---31111----
1947 4421113256-3
1948 --865943131354
1949 ----1314-?1516-?
1950--55----17722
1951431135-44452
195210124220---910-*?*
1953 --------18-5*?*
1954 --6-----20-52
1955 ----RETRETRETRET111113

Observations
  • Given Schmidt's reputation as a two-way force, I was very surprised that his only top 20 points finish beyond the top 10s that are easily spotted on hockey-reference was his war-shortened 1941-42.
  • Schmidt was the top defensive center on the Bruins prior to WW2, while Cowley probably got the best offensive opportunities. However, Cowley was not a factor after the War.
  • I could forgive Schmidt for having a weak 1945-46 after being away from the game of hockey for 3.5 years, and indeed he comes back strong in 1946-47. But after 1947, his career gets really up and down.
  • Injuries might be the main reason Schmidt looks up and down after WW2, but isn't it true that Schmidt's take-no-prisoners style of play probably led to his injuries? We'd make the same argument about Forsberg.
  • Bentley is a player who didn't provide much another than offense, but what an offensive peak it was. 3rd in scoring in 1943, missed two years due to the war, consecutive Art Ross Trophies in the two years after the War (note that some players still missed parts of 1946, however).
  • Bentley got traded in the middle of 1948 to Toronto, where he became their third line center for the rest of the season, then he was their second liner (to Kennedy) after Apps retired following the season. The effects of this trade might be worth exploring further.
  • Bentley's regular season offensive stats took a nose dive when he was traded from Chicago to a much stronger Toronto team, but he made up for it by scoring 37 points in 36 playoff games from 1948-1951, outstanding for the time period.
  • Kennedy's 1944, 1945, and 1946 regular seasons are basically write-offs as far as I am concerned. Sure, he looked good as a 19 year old in 1945 when most of the best players were off fighting, but he fell back to Earth as a 20 year old when most of them returned the following year.
  • On the other hand, 19 year old Kennedy lead the Leafs in an upset victory over the Canadiens in the 1945 playoffs IS noteworthy, as the Canadiens were the one team that was mostly unaffected by the War (Ken Reardon was their only notable absence I think).
  • Kennedy does have a nice string of top 20 finishes and All-Star recogntion from 1947-1955, playing for a fairly defensive-minded team.
  • Kennedy's Hart Trophy in 1955 was clearly a "career achievement award" given to a guy who had not won an individual award before then and had been a 2nd Team AS three times, but never 1st.

HELP ON INTERPRETING THE ABOVE DATA IS APPRECIATED.
Let's get the facts right here and some of your previous posts.

Kennedy was a clean player, Lady Byng votes, Schmidt was often penalized. Fact Kennedy 0.62 PIM/G. Schmidt 0.60PIM/G

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...kennete01.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...schmimi01.html

1945-46 Ted Kennedy missed about 2/3 of the season due to an injury and the Leafs missed the playoffs even though Apps was back. Suggest the Leafs missing the playoffs redefined how the Leafs were structured going forward into their dynasty - around Kennedy.

Max Bentley was traded to the Leafs 2 1/2 weeks into the 1947-48 season. not the middle. This allowed time for the team to set their responsibilities. First team built around three elite centers led by Kennedy.

Ted Kennedy retired after the 1954-55 playoffs and came back during the 1956-57 season.

1955 Hart, a career award? Leafs were not seen as a playoff team but wound up a solid 3rd. Kennedy was tied for 3rd in assists, behind Olmstead and Harvey, tied with Sullivan. Ahead of Beliveau, Howe and Geoffrion, Kelly. Similar to Schmidt winning in 1951. Will get into Kennedt's defensive contribution latter.

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11-29-2013, 09:27 PM
  #78
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I'll just say that if it wasn't for Ray Shero's ineptitude in terms of finding competent wingers, Crosby would have at least 2 more scoring titles. I've never seen an athlete more handcuffed by his teammates in any sport. It's disgusting.
And in the wingers thread Chris Kunitz will be mentioned as a late bloomer perhaps?


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11-29-2013, 09:33 PM
  #79
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1945-46 Ted Kennedy missed about 2/3 of the season due to an injury and the Leafs missed the playoffs even though Apps was back. Suggest the Leafs missing the playoffs redefined how the Leafs were structured going forward into their dynasty - around Kennedy.
Apps missed the first 10 games of the season due to the war, himself. But you're right that Kennedy suffered an injury, which would explain his complete absence from the leaderboards. (Though we still have no way to know how impressive Kennedy's good year during the War was).

Quote:
Ted Kennedy retired after the 1954-55 playoffs and came back during the 1956-57 season.
Don't know how I missed that minor detail. I'll edit the post.

Quote:
1955 Hart, a career award? Leafs were not seen as a playoff team but wound up a solid 3rd. Kennedy was tied for 3rd in assists, behind Olmstead and Harvey, tied with Sullivan. Ahead of Beliveau, Howe and Geoffrion, Kelly. Similar to Schmidt winning in 1951. Will get into Kennedt's defensive contribution latter.
Kennedy's 1955 Hart was clearly a career award. If you read newspaper accounts of it, they all talk about what a great career he had and how he hadn't won an award yet. That year, he finished 11th in scoring and more importantly, 3rd in voting for All-Star center.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-29-2013 at 09:43 PM.
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Old
11-29-2013, 09:57 PM
  #80
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Here are some quotes from Sports Illustrated on Milt Schmidt, Ted Kennedy, and Marcel Dionne.

They had essentially nothing on Joe Malone and Max Bentley, and very little specifically on Henri Richard. I've left out Fedorov, Forsberg, and Crosby as many of us have lived through their careers and are more familiar with them.

Milt Schmidt

January 28, 1957: The Old Kraut Revives The Bruins
Quote:
A tall young man, Schmidt weighed about 125 pounds at the time of his first tryout. That was too light for pro hockey, so he went back to Kitchener for a final year of junior hockey and some general fattening up. The next year, when he was 18 and somewhat sturdier in physique than Deacon Waite, hockey's renowned "Dancing Hairpin," Schmidt joined Bauer and Dumart as a member of the Providence Reds, the Bruins' main farm club. In Providence they were placed on the same line at Ross's instigation. By the beginning of the '37-38 season, the Krauts had graduated en masse to the Bruins. There they stayed and played their unforgettable precise and imaginative hockey for 4 years until they enlisted, as a trio, in the Royal Canadian Air Force. The trio fought the war together, and when it was over returned to the Bruins and put in two more seasons as a line before their partnership was dissolved by Bauer's decision to retire and to enter his father-in-law's business, the Canada Skate Co. Bobby is undoubtedly the only NHL player who ever chose to retire after a season in which he scored 30 goals, the equivalent of batting .350. Dumart remained an active player with the Bruins until 1954, when he was 37 years old. The previous spring, in a playoff series in which a mediocre Boston team unaccountably overwhelmed the Red Wings, Dumart turned in a last superlative performance when, with a tremendous exhibition of all-round defensive play, he held the great Gordon Howe in check game after game as Howe has never been checked before or since. Schmidtty hung on as a player until midway through the '54-55 season when, unable to do the things he could once do on ice, he accepted the coaching job that had been held waiting for him for many seasons.
Quote:
The spearhead of the Krauts, to be sure, was Schmidt, three-time All-League center, top league scorer in 1939-40, and as late as the 1950-51 season winner of the Hart Trophy as the league's most valuable player. "Schmidt was the fastest playmaker of all times," Art Ross has remarked. "By that I mean that no player ever skated at the tilt Schmidtty did and was still able to make the play." Because of his full-throttle style of attack, when Schmidt was body-checked by a rugged defenseman on the lines of "Black Jack" Stewart, the impact was more like a crash than a mere check. For all his sinew, Schmidt suffered an almost endless succession of injuries, which included broken ribs, a broken jaw, a broken nose, severe injuries to his knees and a recurrent wry neck. An incredible competitor, he almost always managed to get onto the ice somehow and play. Against the Leafs, for example, in one playoff series, when both his knees were so banged up from repeated injuries that he literally couldn't bend them, he had his legs taped from the ankle to the thigh and then had himself lifted off the table and "onto his skates." Not infrequently, Schmidt's injuries resulted from shuddering collisions with the metal goal posts. In a playoff game against Les Canadiens in 1947, just such a collision was the inevitable aftermath of one of the most spectacular of his countless spectacular goals. With the Canadiens trailing by a goal and pressing hard for the equalizer, Schmidt broke up a Montreal power play by getting the tip of his blade onto a pass that was being fed back from a corner to Butch Bouchard stationed at one of the points just inside the Boston blue line. He flipped the puck over Bouchard's stick, wheeled in a flash and corralled the loose puck at center ice a step ahead of Bouchard and one other pursuing Canadien. Usually, in a circumstance like this when a player in Schmidt's position has the chance for a breakaway, either he is overtaken by the defending players or else, in outskating them, he is simply going too fast to control himself and the puck at the same time. Schmidt, however, managed to stay in the clear with a terrific burst of speed and still retain partial control of the puck as he swept, more than a little off balance from his effort, into Montreal territory with only the goalie, Bill Durnan, to beat. Instead of just settling for getting a shot off and calling it a good play at that, Schmidt somehow poised himself just long enough to snap a hard low shot into the left-hand corner of the cage. Then, careening way out of control at almost the same instant, he tumbled over himself onto the ice and went sliding head-first against the goal post and off the goal post into the cage itself. After a few repairs, he was back in the game again, never sparing himself. As a coach, Schmidtty has never asked his players to do anything he didn't do himself, in spades, and this explains his success to a considerable measure.
May 19, 1986 - And They All Say "This Is It?"
Quote:
"I can see it all," Schmidt says, sitting in a loge seat on a quiet weekday afternoon. "A man asked me recently if I ever dream. I'm dreaming right now. I look out there and I see things happening. Games. Particular plays. I'm in that corner, knocked on my butt by Ott Heller, God bless his soul, he's gone now. He knocked me down not once, but twice, and I somehow still have the puck. I get up and score. I don't know now how I did that.

"Elmer Lach. I get knocked down and my skate catches him right across the side of the face. I can see the blood. See it. Teeder Kennedy. My neck is sore, and I get into a fight with him by that bench, and he starts twisting my neck. Do you know how, when you're hurt, the adrenaline gets going? You get stronger? I throw him to the ice, and he separates his shoulder and has a concussion, and his eyes are spinning in his head. I can see that, as if it just happened."
Ted Kennedy

February 28, 1955 - Heart of the Leafs
Quote:
I once heard a man contrasting Maurice Richard of the Montreal Canadiens and Ted Kennedy of the Toronto Maple Leafs by giving an imaginary play-by-play of how each scores a goal. For Richard he said, " Richard...takes the pass, SHOOTS, Scores!" For Kennedy he said, "There's a scramble in the corner, Kennedy comes up with the puck, carries it behind the net, stick-handles out in front, shoots, Worsley saves, Kennedy grabs the rebound, passes back to Smith, who shoots, Worsley saves, a defenseman tries to clear, Kennedy checks him, is knocked down, keeps the puck, gets up, shoots, SCORES!"

That is as good a way as any of describing the sweaty, dogged kind of courage which serves Kennedy where speed and dash and a deadly shot serve Richard and other great scoring stars. This turn of spirit also is mainly responsible for the fact that in mid-season balloting for the National Hockey League's most-valuable-player award Kennedy was trailed (and distantly) by the league's hottest goalkeeper and four forwards, each of whom had scored many more goals this season than Kennedy had.
Quote:
It isn't hard to account for Kennedy's greatness. A serious, taut young gentleman of 29 (5 feet 11 inches, 180 pounds) with a skating style more notable for strength and maneuverability than for grace, he has the color that makes Yogi Berra great in baseball and a team-lifting type of leadership that makes Toronto fans very relieved to see him out there every time the going is tough. In addition to his regular turns at center on his own line, he is used both on the Toronto power play (for scoring punch when the opposition is short-handed due to a penalty) and on penalty-killing duties when the Leafs are short-handed and need their best checkers on the ice. On top of this, as team captain, he argues every arguable decision with referees and is put on the ice every time there is an important face-off, because he is the league's best at getting the draw when the puck is dropped. All in all, a very busy young man.

His goal-scoring, while usually respectable, is well off the league's top pace this year. But he gets important goals. Once this season when the Leafs were trailing Chicago 3-1 with less than two minutes to go in the game, Kennedy fired two goals in 69 seconds to tie it. And numberless times every season his digging for the puck, breaking up plays before they start, refusing to allow the opposition out of its own end, has resulted in a play on goal which someone else may score, but which is at least half Kennedy's because he kept it in there in the first place. The only players in recent Toronto history to score 30 goals in a season, Tod Sloan and Sid Smith, accomplished it with Ted Kennedy as their center man. Smith, who is near the 30-goal mark again as this is written, likely will be this year's all-star left wing. He'll tell anyone who'll listen that this is mainly a result of playing alongside the man whose fans call him by the rather old-fashioned but revealing title "Heart of the Leafs" (a name first used by Toronto Globe and Mail sportswriter Al Nickleson).

The fact that Kennedy never has been chosen on the league's all-star team galls his supporters, among whom, as may be imagined, is King Clancy, the Toronto coach. When the mid-season all-star selection had Jean Beliveau, the league's leading scorer, at center instead of Kennedy, Clancy snorted, " Kennedy is still the best hockey player in the league! Counting everything ( Clancy says: " Kennedy does more back-checking in one game than Beliveau does in a week"), he may be right. It is certain that without Kennedy, Toronto is rather an ordinary team. Since he turned professional at age 17 at the tag end of the 1942-'43 season, the Leafs have only twice been out of the Stanley Cup play-offs, the World Series of hockey. Both years they missed were ones in which Kennedy was badly injured and could play only a fraction of the season's schedule.
Marcel Dionne

February 26, 1973: All Ablaze At Center
Quote:
Gary Bergman calls Marcel Dionne Little Beaver, after a midget wrestler, because Dionne stands 5'7" "on the days when I stretch in the morning." But Dionne's lack of altitude has hardly handicapped him on the ice; last year as a 21-year-old rookie he scored 28 goals and 49 assists. And this season he already has 27 goals and 40 assists for the improving Red Wings.

"I can't be like Phil Esposito and just stand there in front of the net," Dionne says. "I've got to skate around and get lost in the crowd. A lot of people think I'm small, but I'm not. I weigh about 180 pounds—and that's not small. Guys bug me about my size, but I'm smarter than them and don't get into fights with them. When a big guy calls me Froggy or Pipsqueak, I just tell him where to go and skate away as fast as I can."

Little Beaver skated away from the Sabres a few hours later and scored two spectacular goals in a Detroit victory. Afterward he spoke volubly about his early years, his love life ("I think I'm getting married this summer") and his plans for April ("We'll be in the playoffs"). His teammates grimaced at his nonstop verbiage.

"Your tongue sweating yet?" asked Tim Ecclestone.

Marcel voyaged blithely on. "The puck," he was saying, "is no good until it is in the net." For Dionne the puck is very good indeed.
October 20, 1975 - A Seller's Market

Quote:
Marcel Elphege (Li'l Beaver) Dionne, 24, has scored more points (366) in his first four NHL seasons than did Rocket Richard, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito, Bobby Hull or anyone else who has ever played in the league. Last year Dionne, a floating hit-and-run center with dazzling acceleration and more body contortions than Luis Tiant, scored 47 goals and had 74 assists for the low-flying Red Wings, trailing only Orr and Esposito in the points race, and won the Lady Byng award for his sportsmanlike behavior on the ice. But Dionne was unhappy in Detroit, in large measure because the Red Wings seemed to change general managers, coaches and operational policies nearly as often as their star scored goals. Twice the Red Wings suspended Dionne after he had flare-ups with coaches-in-residence; twice they quickly reinstated him. Another time Dionne, who talks at such a rate that a former teammate, Gary Bergman, once told him to take a break and wipe the sweat from his tongue, publicly blasted the Red Wings, saying, "There are only three NHL-caliber players on the team." In truth, Dionne was exaggerating.

All things considered, the Red Wings were hardly surprised last fall when Dionne told General Manager-Coach Alex Delvecchio that he would be exercising the option year in his contract during the 1974-1975 season. In a well-publicized attempt to placate their ace, the Red Wings appointed Dionne team captain and unretired Sid Abel's Old No. 12 jersey for him. Dionne responded with his best season, and Delvecchio optimistically expected his captain to sign a new contract. Midway through May, though, Dionne's attorney, Alan Eagleson, informed the Red Wings that there was no change of heart on the part of his client and that Dionne would become a free agent on June 1.

Delvecchio was bitter. " Dionne is a pretty selfish individual," he said. "Now it looks as though what he did last year was all for himself." Delvecchio paused for a moment, then added, "Whatever he did, he's still a good little hockey player."
Quote:
To Coach Bob Pulford, who knew nothing about the trade until Cooke had consummated it, Dionne represents both a challenge and a godsend to his highly disciplined and successful hockey system. In converting the Kings from ragged losers to efficient winners who finished with the fourth-best record in the NHL last season, Pulford has emphasized defense first, defense second and more defense third. Consequently, the Kings have won or lost a majority of their games by the margin of one goal. "We've never had a good power play here," Pulford admits, "and Dionne will help cure that."

What worries Pulford, though, are the adjustments that he and Dionne will have to make in their techniques. "I've told Marcel, and he knows it, that he can't float around center ice here the way he did in Detroit," says Pulford. "He must retreat into the defensive end and work with the defensemen to get the puck out. This type of discipline is new to him, and I know it will take time for him to learn our system."

Pulford and Dionne had a minor dispute midway through the Kings' training camp; Pulford had assigned Dionne to the "Fat Squad," which required him to do an interminable stop-and-start drill at the conclusion of regular practice. It was Pulford's suspicion that Dionne was about 10 pounds overweight, but Dionne assured him that his best playing weight at Detroit had been 185 pounds, three less than he weighed at the time. Not convinced, Pulford asked Milford to check with the Red Wings. "He weighed 178 pounds last year," Milford told Pulford, who summoned Dionne to his office.

"You're dogging it in practice, Marcel," Pulford said. "Ah, I'm not a practice player," Dionne said. Pulford shook his head. "You'll be a practice player here," he snapped, "and you'll also get your weight down—or else." Dionne took to wearing a heavy rubber jacket over his Kings' sweater during the double workouts, skipped the customary postpractice cans of Coors, limited himself to one main meal a day—and soon was down to 180.
Nov 12, 1979 - These Three Kings Are Unbeatable

Quote:
Everyone knows about Dionne, the full-cheeked, round-bodied Littie Beaver whose record over the past eight seasons (327 goals, 464 assists, 791 points) trails that of Montreal's far more heralded Guy Lafleur (355-461-816) by a mere 25 points. And many fans are even aware of Taylor, who became an NCAA legend in 1976-77, his senior year at Clarkson, when he scored 108 points in only 28 games. Last season he had 43 goals for the Kings. But Charlie Simmer?
Quote:
During the last 38 games of the '78-'79 season, the Dionne-Simmer-Taylor line became the most productive in hockey, scoring 169 points. Dionne took the second-half scoring title, and Simmer had 21 goals and 27 assists. Over the summer the question around L.A. was whether Simmer's performance had been a fluke. "In the back of your head you remember all the guys who scored 50 goals and were never heard of again," he says. "There was a lot of, 'Well, sure, but anybody can play with Dionne.' Well, anybody's not playing with Dionne. I am."

In this season's first game, the Line With No Name picked up where it had left off. Simmer scored two goals and two assists in the Kings' 4-4 tie with Detroit, then had at least one goal in each of the next five games.

It simply is not true that "anybody can play with Dionne," and no one knows it better than L.A. Coach Bob Berry. "Management had never been able to find someone to play the left side with Marcel," he says. "First, Marcel has to respect you as a player or he won't give you the puck. They even tried me with him for a while a few years ago, but I never had the speed-or anticipation to play with him. I'd ask him, 'Where do you want me to go in their end?' Some centers like to tell you. Marcel said, 'Go wherever the hell you want and I'll find you.' "

One reason Taylor clicked so well with Dionne when they were paired in 1977-78, Taylor's rookie season, was that Dionne immediately respected him, perhaps because Taylor was not so much in awe of Dionne that he abandoned his own game. "You can give Davy the puck and he'll carry it," Dionne says. "He stopped me from having to do too many things. If I'm not playing with a good goal scorer, I'm trying to do it all myself."
Quote:
Intimidation is something the 5'7�", 190-pound Dionne has long had to endure. At one point last season, following a brawl against Philadelphia, he talked about quitting the game. Not out of fear, mind you, but disgust. "I wasn't born to put a stick in another guy's face," he says. "Nobody minds getting hit hard, but somebody who tries to intimidate you with his stick in your face all night...why? It's kid stuff. Because a guy's skillful and a beautiful skater, why should you take him out of the game?"

Dionne, who wasn't named Beaver because of any special eagerness to labor diligently at both ends of the ice, but because Gordie Howe noted a likeness between Dionne and the little Indian in the Red Ryder comic strip, says, "People have always said, ' Dionne's just a one-way player.' Well, now that I'm with these guys, I can play some defense, too. What we have on our line is three honest hard workers." He suddenly begins to laugh. "But I'm probably the worst."
Feb 18, 1980 - A Canuck In Lotusland
Quote:
Now, at 28, looking on the ice like a purple and gold top whose center of gravity is somewhere in the neighborhood of his ankles, the 5'7", 190-pound Dionne is slicing, angling, passing and shooting his way toward the best of his nine NHL seasons. After scoring his league-high 60th assist last Wednesday night against Hartford and his league-high 43rd goal on Saturday night against the Toronto Maple Leafs, Dionne led archrival Guy Lafleur of Montreal by five points—103 to 98—in the NHL scoring race. Dionne, incidentally, tapped in one of those 43 goals with his nose, which required seven stitches afterward. Recently, Dionne has been a one-man gang, too; Dave Taylor and Charlie Simmer, his wings on the Kings' Triple Crown Line, have been sidelined with knee injuries for several weeks.

L.A. Center Butch Goring recalls that the Kings felt somewhat uneasy when Dionne arrived in town in 1975. The team had to give up two popular players for Dionne—Left Wing Dan Maloney and Defenseman Terry Harper—and, according to the press in Michigan, the guy they were getting in return, albeit brilliant and flashy, might be more trouble than he was worth.

"Most of the players were pretty bitter about losing Maloney and Harper," says Goring, "and it was an unfortunate situation for Marcel because it wasn't his fault. And then when he got here, he was such a great offensive player that everybody wanted to be like him and score goals because that's where all the glory is. I think it hurt us for a while."

In the 1975-76 season, his first in L.A., Dionne set King records of 40 goals and 94 points, maintaining his average of previous years with the Red Wings. In 1976-77 he scored 53 goals and 69 assists for 122 points—all personal highs for him as well as for the Kings—and in the process won the Lady Byng Trophy for sportsmanlike behavior for the second time (he had won it in 1974-75 with the Red Wings). In 1977-78 the aftereffects of a shoulder separation—his only major injury as a pro—limited Dionne to a very respectable 36 goals and 43 assists, but in 1978-79 he returned to form and put together his finest season—59 goals, second in the league to the Islanders' Mike Bossy, and 130 points, second to Bossy's teammate Bryan Trottier.

Typically French-Canadian, Dionne is utterly and unsubtly down-to-earth; he speaks his mind. Yet he hasn't a rancorous bone in his chunky body. "If I know someone doesn't like me," he says, "I'll end up right beside him and talk to him, and I tell you, if I don't get that person to change his attitude, there's something wrong. He just hates people."

Dionne has tried to be the Kings' unquestioned leader, too. "Marcel's probably the best team player we have," says linemate Taylor. "He's always trying to motivate the players and get them going. Like, in the dressing room he gets himself all charged up, and then he starts talking and he gets everybody else charged up. He's a very vocal guy."

In his early days with Detroit, Dionne had the reputation of being a self-centered, goal-hungry guy, not a complete team player. But what rankled Dionne most when he came to Detroit in 1971 was the lack of team spirit he found among the veterans. "It was my biggest disappointment," he says. "I really thought the pros were so much better and so much smarter. Then I found out a lot of them could care less whether the team was winning or losing as long as they got paid. That I was unprepared for. I could not believe the thing I waited for all my life, playing in the NHL, I could not believe it was like that. Here I was in the dressing room, trying to cheer guys up, giving the rah-rah-rah, but I found out real soon I was the guy that was going to become the target of everybody."

However, Dionne has developed a symbiotic relationship with this team. When it plays well, he plays well, and then the Kings continue to play well. When they play poorly, he gets moody, which affects his play, and the team continues to play poorly.

"When the team isn't doing well, Marcel tends to get down. That might be his only bad point," Goring says.

Dionne more or less agrees. "It's hard to explain," he says, "but in a team sport, when everybody does it, you want to work harder and perform well. If a team plays bad, I'm still going to have my goals and my points. But if a team plays well, I'm going to do a lot more because six guys are out there doing it. And it's more fun than just scoring goals. You know you're not working for nothing. You know there will be results at the end of the game and at the end of the week."
Quote:
When Dionne signed with L.A., Delvecchio's smile disappeared. He bitterly denounced his former star in the press, calling him a selfish individual who played only for himself. On the other hand, Bob Berry, his present coach, says, "As many goals as Marcel scores, he is the most unselfish hockey player I've ever seen with the puck around the net."
December 3, 1984 - Surprise! These Kings Are Aces
Quote:
Though he almost always has his game face on, Dionne, who ranks fourth on the NHL's alltime goal-scoring list, has been frustrated in L.A., where he has performed brilliantly for teams that have gone nowhere. "The last two years you won for no reason and you lost for no reason," says Dionne. "Now if we win, maybe we reach the playoffs, and if we lose we learn from it." Dionne, a notorious one-way player, has learned from Quinn how to work at both ends of the ice. "Marcel's coming back deeper and helping out more in our zone," says Quinn, "and he's still getting his points." But Dionne would get his points if he were performing with the Belmonts. The difference is that this season those points are winning hockey games, and those wins are drawing fans.

"Marcel's like our fans. He sees the light," says Vachon, who, so far, has been shining it.
January 26, 1987 - The Kings' Crown Princes
Quote:
The success of Robitaille, 20, and Carson, at 18 the youngest player in the league, has been particularly gratifying to their mentor, Kings center Marcel Dionne. The second-leading scorer in NHL history, Dionne took the youngsters under his wing (in fact, Robitaille is his left wing) as soon as they arrived in town. It has proved to be a particularly profitable arrangement for the Kings and their once punchless offense: Robitaille leads all NHL rookies in scoring, and Carson ranks second.

Dionne's mother-henning came into full force after Quinn was suspended on Jan. 9 for signing a contract, while still coaching in L.A., to become president and general manager of the Vancouver Canucks next season. Quinn's assistant, Mike Murphy, stepped in as interim coach, and the media descended on the team.

On Tuesday, Jan. 13, supposedly a day off for the Kings. Robitaille and Carson were sitting in the Dionne home coolly handling long interviews with USA Today and, in both French and English, with Hockey Night in Canada.
Quote:
Robitaille and Carson would stay up late each night asking questions and listening to Dionne talk hockey. "We had to kick Jim out at night," Dionne says. Duchesne often joined the group, becoming the third member of what is coming to be known as the Dionne Triplets.

When camp broke, Dionne invited Robitaille to stay at his house. As for Carson, Carol Dionne says. "How could we throw him out? He can barely burn toast." Marcel called a neighbor at 10:30 one night and asked, "How would you like to have a hockey player stay with you?" Done. The rookies frequently car-pool with Dionne, and the three always have their pregame meal together—Carol's spaghetti with meat sauce—when they play at home.

Dionne has taught the two rookies lessons that took him years to learn. For example: "I know how Marcel has made it 16 seasons in the NHL," Robitaille says. "Plenty of rest."

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11-29-2013, 10:19 PM
  #81
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Thanks for the articles, overpass. Lots of good info there, but two things that I noticed:

1) I can see where the Milt Schmidt hype came from - he really did seem to be the type of player who was a joy to watch - all over the ice - doing everything - making things happen... and his style of play led to frequent injuries. Sounds like he had more Forsberg in him than we previously thought... My guess is that because of era, Schmidt was more likely to play through injuries than Forsberg was, which would somewhat explains his lack of per-game averages.

2) What mixed reviews on Dionne's non-offensive abilities. I had to chuckle the third time an article basically said "the notorious one-way player is now trying harder on the other end."

Edit: And I'll say something about Kennedy - lots of talk of him making his wingers better, despite assist totals that don't impress all that much for this round. Seems a guy who did everything to help his team that didn't show up on the scoreboard (and still scored a lot; just less than most guys this round)


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11-29-2013, 11:04 PM
  #82
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1) I can see where the Milt Schmidt hype came from - he really did seem to be the type of player who was a joy to watch - all over the ice - doing everything - making things happen... and his style of play led to frequent injuries. Sounds like he had more Forsberg in him than we previously thought... My guess is that because of era, Schmidt was more likely to play through injuries than Forsberg was, which would somewhat explains his lack of per-game averages[/B].
This idea that old time players were somehow tougher than modern guys has come up several times, is there any actual evidence of this?

Was Forsberg supposed to "tough it up" when he had his spleen removed?

For all of the talk of old time toughness there are a couple of factors being overlooked here,

1) players who get injured more often, like in the early 90's and after wards are playing over 80 games per season and up to 20ish playoff games in some cases as well as international games, Schmidt was playing in 60 or less for the better part of his career and 70 max towards the end.

As well double digit GP playoff seasons were rare.

2) There is no doubt that players are hitting more often and getting larger and faster on the ice as well as the chronological NHL timeline moves along, with the added likelihood of injuries, it's just common sense that players are more venerable to injuries under these condition's and not lacking in any toughness category.

Back to the thread, Schmidt was an inconsistent offensive player while many in this thread simply were more consistent and better in terms of their impact IMO.

Feds, for all of the he wasn't that great offensively in the regular season never had a poor playoff year offensively which is remarkable considering his defensive assignments.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...fedorse01.html

Feds had 15 excellent, for his role, age ect... playoff seasons and maybe only can be equaled by Forsberg, and perhaps Richard to a degree in this round.

For all of his problems in scoring he had 1179 NHL points playing mostly in a decreased scoring era and playing a superb 2 way game.

In his career only 7 players, and 3 Canadians scored more points than he did and did any of them have a 2 way game like Feds did from start to finish?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

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11-29-2013, 11:16 PM
  #83
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In his career only 7 players, and 3 Canadians scored more points than he did and did any of them have a 2 way game like Feds did from start to finish?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
Not specifically related to Fedorov:
I've seen stats used this way a few times already and I think the problem with exactly counting the seasons from a single player's start to end of his career is that you give him an advantage by using 100% of his points while cutting others that are compared to him short unless their careers overlap exactly.

If you make the cuttof in 90 he's 13th, in 89 Sergei ends up 17th.

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11-29-2013, 11:21 PM
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This idea that old time players were somehow tougher than modern guys has come up several times, is there any actual evidence of this?
Was Forsberg supposed to "tough it up" when he had his spleen removed?
Not talking about his spleen really (in Schmidt's time, would have have just died then and there?). More talking about his other injuries that regularly led him to miss smaller amount of games. Yes, there was more pressure in earlier times to play through injuries - no player's union, weak sports science, fewer teams so there was always someone else willing to take your play.

I would expect a modern player to miss more games per season but an older player to have a shorter career for the same reason. On average, obviously. And I tend to agree with Sturminator that for a player like Schmidt, the War years probably extended his career a little bit.

Related to two known injury-prone players, if you are looking at "per game averages," then I think the guy who has the luxury of sitting out would have something of an advantage. I have no idea how much of a difference it would actually make though.

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Not specifically related to Fedorov:
I've seen stats used this way a few times already and I think the problem with exactly counting the seasons from a single player's start to end of his career is that you give him an advantage by using 100% of his points while cutting others that are compared to him short unless their careers overlap exactly.
At this point, I think everyone but Hardyvan123 realizes that it's a junk stat. No idea why he keeps pushing it. You can use it to make just about any player look good.


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11-29-2013, 11:47 PM
  #85
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At this point, I think everyone but Hardyvan123 realizes that it's a junk stat. No idea why he keeps pushing it. You can use it to make just about any player look good.
On its own, it's junk. Nodoutaboutit. but, I found this useful a few months ago when he used the stat for Marleau. It's useful... IF you also consider PPG rank in that time, and IF you do the exact same beneficial comparison for the players you're comparing your guy too.

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11-30-2013, 02:10 AM
  #86
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There's something I've been thinking about for a while, and now seems as good a time as any to just come out and say it:

There's nothin' like a career's worth of Hall-of-Fame/Hall-of-Fame worthy/Hall-of-Fame caliber Goaltending to really sporty-up a forward's reputation for two-way play and general defensive excellence. The Nighbor and Clarke boat has long since sailed on this front- but there's still time to reflect on this as concerns Henri Richard. (Plante, Worsley, Vachon, Dryden.) Okay, there were a couple/three years of Charlie Hodge in between the Vachon-Worsley duo- and during that time, Toronto finally crested over the horizon in the playoffs- but y'know what I mean...

There's one Center under discussion who's achieved a reputation for defensive acumen in spite of not having Hall-of-Fame level goaltending- and that's... Sergei Fedorov.

Should I find a sofa to hide under, now?

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11-30-2013, 03:01 AM
  #87
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There's something I've been thinking about for a while, and now seems as good a time as any to just come out and say it:

There's nothin' like a career's worth of Hall-of-Fame/Hall-of-Fame worthy/Hall-of-Fame caliber Goaltending to really sporty-up a forward's reputation for two-way play and general defensive excellence. The Nighbor and Clarke boat has long since sailed on this front- but there's still time to reflect on this as concerns Henri Richard. (Plante, Worsley, Vachon, Dryden.) Okay, there were a couple/three years of Charlie Hodge in between the Vachon-Worsley duo- and during that time, Toronto finally crested over the horizon in the playoffs- but y'know what I mean...

There's one Center under discussion who's achieved a reputation for defensive acumen in spite of not having Hall-of-Fame level goaltending- and that's... Sergei Fedorov.

Should I find a sofa to hide under, now?
In the context of a 6 team league, Worsley/Vachon was nothing special.

And I wouldn't say Fedorov NEVER had HHOF-level goaltending - look who was in net for his 3rd Cup. Also, isn't the book on Mike Vernon that his highs were HHOF-level, but he was too inconsistent?

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11-30-2013, 03:21 AM
  #88
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In the context of a 6 team league, Worsley/Vachon was nothing special.
Does this mean you've reconsidered your previous position as to the Hall-of-Fame worthiness of Vachon? I ask this, not as a "gotcha" question- but because I'm interested in whether your viewpoint on this has evolved...
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And I wouldn't say Fedorov NEVER had HHOF-level goaltending - look who was in net for his 3rd Cup. Also, isn't the book on Mike Vernon that his highs were HHOF-level, but he was too inconsistent?
Absolutely right- as far as it goes... but my point is that Fedorov had long-since secured his esteem prior to that third cup. And I agree with Stan Fischler (it happens, sometimes) that Fedorov not getting the 96-97 Smythe was one of the epic jobbings in CS history. People were jazz-azzed about Vernon out-performing Hextall, as if that was some sort of accomplishment at that time...

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11-30-2013, 06:12 AM
  #89
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The claim was that Forsberg was twice the playoff performer Crosby has been.
Why would I be on the hook for what someone else - who I so clearly disagree with on Forsberg and Crosby - claimed?


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Not to mention I am going to immediately question the "under worse conditions" because personally I would take the Avs teams over the Pens teams from those two runs any day.
Would you take the teams the Avalanche were shooting on through three rounds in those years as well? The Avalanche in 1999 and 2002 were shooting on teams that averaged less than 190 GA, while the Penguins in 2008 and 2009 were shooting on teams that averaged 227 GA.

The difference in .46 GA per game between the teams Forsberg faced (2.31) and the teams Crosby faced (2.77) is comparable to the difference between 1930-31 scoring levels (2.31 GAA) and 2006-07 scoring levels (2.77 GAA).

So what is there to question about "worse conditions" under which they had their best playoffs? The Avalanche had an even goal differential and the Penguins were +33. Patrick Roy didn't help Forsberg score goals, and Joe Sakic only factored in on 35% of the Avalanche's goals to Forsberg's 46% while Malkin and Crosby each factored in on 41% of the Penguins' goals.


I question you immediately questioning the conditions given the evidence presented to you.

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11-30-2013, 06:34 AM
  #90
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And I agree with Stan Fischler (it happens, sometimes) that Fedorov not getting the 96-97 Smythe was one of the epic jobbings in CS history. People were jazz-azzed about Vernon out-performing Hextall, as if that was some sort of accomplishment at that time...
I thought Vernon's Conn Smythe was perfectly acceptable. It was a total team effort in winning the Stanley Cup, but Vernon is the goaltender who is only letting in two goals or less in 17 of 20 games. He had his SPCT numbers deflated from a .934 because one night against Colorado didn't go his way; well, he killed them, Anaheim, and Philadelphia every other night - and those teams were great offensively.

I don't understand the reappropriation of the Conn Smythe for Sergei Fedorov as if he was the only one who deserved it.

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11-30-2013, 06:37 AM
  #91
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1954-55 Hart Voting

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Kennedy's 1955 Hart was clearly a career award. If you read newspaper accounts of it, they all talk about what a great career he had and how he hadn't won an award yet. That year, he finished 11th in scoring and more importantly, 3rd in voting for All-Star center.
Trust you reviewed the Hart voting for the 1954-55 season. Per the AST and Award voting, thanks to BM67.

1954-55
HART: (323/324, 103-119)
1. Ted Kennedy, Tor C 86 (40-46)
2. Harry Lumley, Tor G 61 (23-38)
3. Maurice Richard, Mtl LW 36 (19-17)
4. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 21 (14-7)
T5. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 18 (7-11)
T5. Gordie How, Det RW 18
7. Bernie Geoffrion, Mtl RW 16
8. Red Kelly, Det D 15
T9. Leo Labine, Bos RW 10
T9. Red Sullivan, Chi C 10
T9. Danny Lewicki, NYR LW 10
12. Earl Reibel, Det C 7
T13. Ken Mosdell, Mtl C 4
T13. Alex Delvecchio, Det C 4
T15. Don Raleigh, NYR C 2
T15. Terry Sawchuk, Det G 2
T17. Sid Smith, Tor LW 1
T17. Fern Flaman, Bos D 1
T17. Gump Worsley, NYR G 1

Note that there was a mid-season vote and an end of season vote. In both votes Ted Kennedy and Harry Lumley were first and second.

So how did the writers know by midseason that Ted Kennedy was going to retire? How did they get non- Toronto writers on stream with the voting strategy? Especially the Montreal writers at mid season before Richard's meltdown that cost him the Ross?

The Hart voting from the split voting period is available here:


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=145895&page=5

What you suggest simply did not happen and would have been near impossible to organize.

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11-30-2013, 07:30 AM
  #92
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So how did the writers know by midseason that Ted Kennedy was going to retire?
Because it's a well-known fact that Smythe had to talk Kennedy into coming back for the '54/55 season in the first place. From his wiki:

Quote:
"For the 1953–54 season, Kennedy finished tied for second on the team in points and was elected to the NHL's 2nd Team All-Star team. The Leafs finished in 3rd place and were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs by Detroit in five games.[184] At the end of the season, Kennedy announced his intentions to retire. Conn Smythe told reporters he had tendered Kennedy "the highest offer ever made a hockey player". This was a raise above his $25,000 yearly salary (approximately $200,000 in today's dollars[185]) according to a contemporary newspaper report.[186] However, Smythe said that Kennedy had told him that lately he felt "he hadn't produced in proportion to what he's been paid." Smythe insisted the Leafs needed Kennedy as Toronto was a young team.[49]

Smythe was able to talk Kennedy into playing the 1954–55 season..."


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11-30-2013, 07:45 AM
  #93
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I'll just say that if it wasn't for Ray Shero's ineptitude in terms of finding competent wingers, Crosby would have at least 2 more scoring titles.
'Tis a little off-topic, but Ray Shero has to deal with something that the Old Dynasty Teams didn't have to deal with- The Cap. It's common enough hockey-knowledge (at least among people sort-of following the sport) that Crosby & Malkin alone take up an incredible amount of Pittsburgh's salary-cap. And they're not to be begrudged for it, I think. My backside gets weary of the Sidney Crosby show sometimes- but he's earned his coin- all the moreso when you consider that he, also, might be one or two head-shots away from having it all go horribly wrong.

However, the very coin he pockets has some consequences- less money for prospective teammates, for instance. Again, nothin' wrong with that- I'm okay with him getting what his negotiating team can extract. But let's remember that there's a process where the relevant parties willingly enter into agreements that increase the likelihood of the conditions previously described...

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11-30-2013, 08:10 AM
  #94
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Forgive the double-post... but:

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Kennedy's 1955 Hart was clearly a career award. If you read newspaper accounts of it, they all talk about what a great career he had and how he hadn't won an award yet. That year, he finished 11th in scoring and more importantly, 3rd in voting for All-Star center.
So, we're talking about a Hart-winning A) Forward, who B) didn't finish in the top-10 in scoring, and C) played for a team that didn't achieve a winning record.

Now, that is an avis that's so rara that it wouldn't surprise me to discover that it's a singularity.

There are good reasons to give serious consideration to Kennedy this round. And surely, if I knew nothing more than his 5-Cups-in-7-years playoff run, I'd do so. Due consideration has to be given to the fact that the first one came during the war-weakened NHL, but still... there are better things to be said in favor of Teeder than the fact that he won what looks like a truly unusual Hart voting process.

[And I just noticed that THE VERY YEAR BEFORE, goalie Al Rollins won his bizarro-world Hart trophy (G: W=12, L=47, GAA: 3.23). Voters must have been in a really strange mood during those times...]

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11-30-2013, 08:18 AM
  #95
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Crosby took a paycut. I think the union would have had an issue with their best player, in his prime, taking less than $8 million. He's narrowly making more than Corey Perry. And no one's asking for an all-star on his line, just 1 or 2 players that don't actively lose the puck every time they have it. It's an act of total luck that Crosby's leading the league in scoring this season, since Dupuis and Kunitz have been 2 of the worst first liners I've ever seen. Crosby gives them the puck and never gets it back. The second he passes it, the play is done, he might as well turn around and get a head start on backchecking. Hockey is a team game, and it pains me to watch this. BEAU BENNETT would be a god-send on his line. Pens fans are begging for a 22 year old with 4 career goals to go on his line, because he would be a major improvement, but Shero, Bylsma, the Pittsburgh hockey media, etc are all too ignorant to see it. The situation's so bad that we're begging for the league's top scorer to play with a 22 year old kid with 4 career goals.

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11-30-2013, 08:49 AM
  #96
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Negotiating Ploy

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Because it's a well-known fact that Smythe had to talk Kennedy into coming back for the '54/55 season in the first place. From his wiki:
Common Toronto Captain negotiating ploy - George Armstrong retired a few times. Also coincidental to Jean Beliveau signing a mega contract before the 1953-54 season.

Actually shows the opposite of what you are trying to show since writers did not look kindly on players that leveraged contracts in this fashion.

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11-30-2013, 09:02 AM
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Trust you reviewed the Hart voting for the 1954-55 season. Per the AST and Award voting, thanks to BM67.

1954-55
HART: (323/324, 103-119)
1. Ted Kennedy, Tor C 86 (40-46)
2. Harry Lumley, Tor G 61 (23-38)
3. Maurice Richard, Mtl LW 36 (19-17)
4. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 21 (14-7)
T5. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 18 (7-11)
T5. Gordie How, Det RW 18
7. Bernie Geoffrion, Mtl RW 16
8. Red Kelly, Det D 15
T9. Leo Labine, Bos RW 10
T9. Red Sullivan, Chi C 10
T9. Danny Lewicki, NYR LW 10
12. Earl Reibel, Det C 7
T13. Ken Mosdell, Mtl C 4
T13. Alex Delvecchio, Det C 4
T15. Don Raleigh, NYR C 2
T15. Terry Sawchuk, Det G 2
T17. Sid Smith, Tor LW 1
T17. Fern Flaman, Bos D 1
T17. Gump Worsley, NYR G 1

Note that there was a mid-season vote and an end of season vote. In both votes Ted Kennedy and Harry Lumley were first and second.

So how did the writers know by midseason that Ted Kennedy was going to retire? How did they get non- Toronto writers on stream with the voting strategy? Especially the Montreal writers at mid season before Richard's meltdown that cost him the Ross?

The Hart voting from the split voting period is available here:


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=145895&page=5

What you suggest simply did not happen and would have been near impossible to organize.
The SI article I posted earlier on Kennedy had a paragraph on the first half Hart voting.


Quote:
This mid-season ballot for the MVP (the Hart Trophy, $1,000 bonus from the league and usually another $1,000 from the winner's team) went this way: Kennedy, 40 points; Harry Lumley, Toronto goalie, 23; and four of the league's highest scorers next, Richard with 19, Boom-Boom Geoffrion of Montreal with 15, Gordie Howe of Detroit and Jean Beliveau of Montreal tied with 14 each. Another ballot will be cast at season's end, but since last year's winner (Al Rollins, Chicago goalie, who got it for bravery under fire) needed only 80 points and Kennedy has half that and no really close contender, it seems likely that he's in, barring injury in the final few weeks.
The type of analysis is interesting - suggesting that writers in the second half were looking at the first half totals and narrowing their choices accordingly. In the first half voting, high-scoring forwards Beliveau, Geoffrion, Howe, and Richard received a combined 58 voting points to Kennedy's 40 but none of the four stood out individually. The failure of voters to identify a candidate from this group and the failure of any one of these four to clearly separate themselves in the second half took them all out of the running. They received a combined 29 voting points in the second half to Kennedy's 46.

One could look at it as a 2-round balloting process, similar to some political processes. It only took a minority of voters to give Kennedy a strong lead in the first round of voting, and the failure to identify an alternative strengthened his case in the second round.

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11-30-2013, 09:25 AM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Not specifically related to Fedorov:
I've seen stats used this way a few times already and I think the problem with exactly counting the seasons from a single player's start to end of his career is that you give him an advantage by using 100% of his points while cutting others that are compared to him short unless their careers overlap exactly.

If you make the cuttof in 90 he's 13th, in 89 Sergei ends up 17th.
Other people have commented on this but only the best players play long enough and score enough points to do well on this metric.

It's also just only one metric, I like to look at as many things as possible like peak, prime , career (which is really what the above metric is) and other things like league and team context ect.

What you say is true though, some players have an advantage in who overlaps them and who doesn't, for example in the Richard ES scoring model presented last round, it was Henri's prime while other players had the start and finish of the careers in it.

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11-30-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
So, we're talking about a Hart-winning A) Forward, who B) didn't finish in the top-10 in scoring, and C) played for a team that didn't achieve a winning record.

Now, that is an avis that's so rara that it wouldn't surprise me to discover that it's a singularity.

There are good reasons to give serious consideration to Kennedy this round. And surely, if I knew nothing more than his 5-Cups-in-7-years playoff run, I'd do so. Due consideration has to be given to the fact that the first one came during the war-weakened NHL, but still... there are better things to be said in favor of Teeder than the fact that he won what looks like a truly unusual Hart voting process.

[And I just noticed that THE VERY YEAR BEFORE, goalie Al Rollins won his bizarro-world Hart trophy (G: W=12, L=47, GAA: 3.23). Voters must have been in a really strange mood during those times...]
People here should be smart enough to realize that Kennedy had no business winning the Hart that year.

The 20th goal scorer had 16 Teeder had 10, Ted was tied for 3rd in assists and was 11th in points with 52, 3 more than a Guy named Doug Harvey.


If anyone wants to sell him deserving of that Hart I have Sid's 13 Hart case right here, which is much stronger BTW.

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11-30-2013, 11:02 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Back to the thread, Schmidt was an inconsistent offensive player while many in this thread simply were more consistent and better in terms of their impact IMO.

Feds, for all of the he wasn't that great offensively in the regular season never had a poor playoff year offensively which is remarkable considering his defensive assignments.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...fedorse01.html

For all of his problems in scoring he had 1179 NHL points playing mostly in a decreased scoring era and playing a superb 2 way game.

In his career only 7 players, and 3 Canadians scored more points than he did and did any of them have a 2 way game like Feds did from start to finish?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
Weird to see someone slam Schmidt for offensive inconsistency and, in the same breath, praise Fedorov.

Using your own, 'Canadians only' metric, Fedorov's only top ten scoring finishes would be: 2, 6, 6, 9.

Schmidt's: 1, 4, 4, 10, 10.

I'm not sure I see a huge difference here. And, by all accounts, Schmidt brought plenty of intangibles to the table as well. At best, I see the 'all-around' elements of the game being a saw-off as well.

And by the, 'most points scored during their career' metric, Schmidt finishes fourth in total points (behind three Canadians, like Fedorov) and 27th in PPG (Fedorov has 14 Canadians ahead of him).

And then Schmidt is a four-time All-Star to Fedorov's one time.

I've been very critical of Fedorov in the past, but I honestly can't see any way he's anything but the weakest link in this group.

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