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13-14 Prospects Thread Version XIX: Leafs in the WJC.

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11-29-2013, 08:41 AM
  #351
Interactif
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Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
Nilsson has to be one of my favorite Leaf prospects. Just love the game he plays.
I love him what I saw of him too, he's smart, calm and abrasive. Not flashy, but effective. All he needs to do is continue to develop, still a ways to go though. But you can't teach hockey IQ, and this kid has it which augers well for him.

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11-29-2013, 08:44 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
Maybe Gauthier is improving other things in his game which doesn't appear on the scoresheet? Not saying his stats are bad at all, just think maybe he's trying to better himself in other areas at the same time.
It would be nice if he would have more than 5 goals thus far this season. Points wise he is not far off last year's pace, but again if we look for positive indicators for our prospects and not for the few anomolies of reduced points production in post draft years to gauge if players turn out. It would be nice if he starts showing a more offensive side to his game.

I would feel much better for the odds Gauthier is not a bottom sixer, if he would show positive points production this year. He can still salvage this year with a strong 2d half.

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11-29-2013, 08:46 AM
  #353
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Bergeron was in the NHL the year following his draft and I believe Hanzal was quite productive offensively as a junior in the WHL. Of course there is time to improve, of course it's too early to write him off, of course, of course, of course. I'm simply playing the odds here. If a prospect has trouble producing offensively in junior, usually they won't make it to the NHL. And while Gauthier was drafted primarily for his defensive abilities, you simply don't get drafted in the first round as a forward if you're not expected to produce offensively. Maybe not first line, but your ceiling is certainly expected to be greater than a third line center. That should be gauthier's floor. Anyways, sure, there are players like Versteeg whose junior production doesn't exactly match their nhl production. But why do we know about players like Versteeg and clarksons jr production? Because it is a RARITY. If it were common for players to go through that then we wouldn't know about it. Anyways, it's goals we should be worried about. In jr you can pass to a superstar and he'll net it, or a puck will bounce off your ass and will be put in by someone else around the net. 5 goals second year junior is bad, forget about the points, whether he is a goal scorer or not. His defensive abilities and physicality won't be enough to put him in the nhl. People alwayyyys say that, at worst he'll be a 4th liner etc. Look at biggs...or a better example is look at patrice cormier, who was supposed to be what we want gauthier to be in the nhl. If you can't keep up somewhat offensively someone else will climb over you on the depth chart anyways. Yes it's too early, but players who make the NHL don't usually go through this choppy development. Yes, it's early, but it doesn't usually end up well for these players. Obviously there are exceptions, so hopefully gauthier is one. Sorry, wrote this on my telephone

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11-29-2013, 09:03 AM
  #354
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Bergeron was in the NHL the year following his draft and I believe Hanzal was quite productive offensively as a junior in the WHL. Of course there is time to improve, of course it's too early to write him off, of course, of course, of course. I'm simply playing the odds here. If a prospect has trouble producing offensively in junior, usually they won't make it to the NHL. And while Gauthier was drafted primarily for his defensive abilities, you simply don't get drafted in the first round as a forward if you're not expected to produce offensively. Maybe not first line, but your ceiling is certainly expected to be greater than a third line center. That should be gauthier's floor. Anyways, sure, there are players like Versteeg whose junior production doesn't exactly match their nhl production. But why do we know about players like Versteeg and clarksons jr production? Because it is a RARITY. If it were common for players to go through that then we wouldn't know about it. Anyways, it's goals we should be worried about. In jr you can pass to a superstar and he'll net it, or a puck will bounce off your ass and will be put in by someone else around the net. 5 goals second year junior is bad, forget about the points, whether he is a goal scorer or not. His defensive abilities and physicality won't be enough to put him in the nhl. People alwayyyys say that, at worst he'll be a 4th liner etc. Look at biggs...or a better example is look at patrice cormier, who was supposed to be what we want gauthier to be in the nhl. If you can't keep up somewhat offensively someone else will climb over you on the depth chart anyways. Yes it's too early, but players who make the NHL don't usually go through this choppy development. Yes, it's early, but it doesn't usually end up well for these players. Obviously there are exceptions, so hopefully gauthier is one. Sorry, wrote this on my telephone
If Gautheir develops into a bigger Jay McClement, I'll be very happy with the pick.

Guys like that are absolutely key to winning a championship.

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11-29-2013, 10:20 AM
  #355
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In the future we could be alot like boston in the fact we have a really great bottom 6 with a 4th line what isnt 1 dimensional and chip in goals and shutdown.

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11-29-2013, 11:52 AM
  #356
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This should be emphasized more. He's not just a pretty good "two-way" centre, a term that gets thrown around far too loosely sometimes. He's VERY good defensively.

Will he become a 75+ point C in the NHL? Probably not. But if he can become a ~50 point guy while bringing the defence of a guy like McClement.. Then he can be a huge addition.

If youre sitting there expecting that we drafted Getzlaf at 21st overall, then youre very likely to be disappointed. But if he can become something close to a ~Fisher, Backes, Callahan (as a C), Nielsen, J. Staal, etc, or even slightly better, that'd be fantastic.
I loved this pick and was hoping for him, but I think even 50 is a little high. He has a very slim chance at being a 50 pt player, IMO. But a shutdown player of his ilk is more important then a flashy 2nd liner that brings very little to the defensive side of the game.

There's a reason NHL coaches give these types 15+ mins a game and against hard competition while sheltering a young guy like Kadri. You win with a center like that.


And for all the complaining about this selection, and all the people griping at the draft that we should have taken Shinkaruk, why don't we talk about how well his season is? There is still maybe 1 or 2 players in that range that are doing very well. Maybe this isn't a great offensive draft.

It's not like we're missing out on a big handful of offensive dynamos.

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11-29-2013, 12:09 PM
  #357
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I have a feeling the ones legitimately thinking Gauthier is a likely bust already at 19 are younger than him. Reading the few pages of a number of people considering him a terrible pick after not even half of a season have made me realize more so why other fans hate us lol.

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11-29-2013, 12:50 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
If Gauthier develops into a bigger Jay McClement, I'll be very happy with the pick.

Guys like that are absolutely key to winning a championship.
McClement with size and a better possession game and I'm very satisfied with the pick. That would absolutely be a good pick for a #21 spot.

As for the discussion on what expectations to have of a #21 pick, here's my take. Some bring up the great players taken in the range around #21, but you can't just look at that and think that's what you should aim for. There will always be great players found in any range of draft picks. What you should look at is what the average quality of player is in that range, considering all things. And when you take that perspective, a bigger McClement with size and possession game would be very high up the list in terms of actual impact on a hockey game. And considering that Gauthier can still evolve his offensive game and become more than that, I can't see how people think it's a bad pick.

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11-29-2013, 06:38 PM
  #359
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Other factors come into play with regards to Gauthier's offensive game such as: Style of play his coach employs and what is expected of him within this system...The line mates he usually has. Are they capable offensive players?...Does he play on a relatively veteran team or are they a younger team that can be dominated by an older, bigger , stronger team?...is he creating chances that aren't being finished or is he getting his fair share of chances and being robbed?...I've seen players at all levels of hockey have everything go their way one year and not so much the next... I'm not saying any of the above is true as I don't see any of the games but there are sometimes factors that contribute to "stats"...I prefer the eyeball test, as some people call it ,whereby you watch someone play and you judge for yourself if the guy is a player or looks to have the potential to become one at the NHL level.

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11-29-2013, 07:15 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Nithoniniel View Post
McClement with size and a better possession game and I'm very satisfied with the pick. That would absolutely be a good pick for a #21 spot.

As for the discussion on what expectations to have of a #21 pick, here's my take. Some bring up the great players taken in the range around #21, but you can't just look at that and think that's what you should aim for. There will always be great players found in any range of draft picks. What you should look at is what the average quality of player is in that range, considering all things. And when you take that perspective, a bigger McClement with size and possession game would be very high up the list in terms of actual impact on a hockey game. And considering that Gauthier can still evolve his offensive game and become more than that, I can't see how people think it's a bad pick.
And considering we had to make a trade this yr for a Center
Should tell most of the Leaf fans on this board why we drafted a Center
The only other pick in that area would have been Mantha but he was already taken

As you stated if he becomes a shutdown Center who can chip in offensively be 50 or 60 percent in the faceoff dot

I will take the word of our scouts and I think Crosby talked him into playing for Rimouski

Give the kid time to develop

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11-29-2013, 08:33 PM
  #361
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Frederik's junior numbers are already much better than Jay's. He only had one PPG campaign and that was in his 4th year. I don't think I'd be thrilled if Gauthier topped out at 36 points in his NHL career.

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11-29-2013, 08:35 PM
  #362
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Brown with 4 apples so far, Finn with a goal, Rupert & Verhaeghe with nothing,

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11-29-2013, 09:07 PM
  #363
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Verhaeghe 2 assists

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Old
11-29-2013, 09:17 PM
  #364
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I have a feeling the ones legitimately thinking Gauthier is a likely bust already at 19 are younger than him. Reading the few pages of a number of people considering him a terrible pick after not even half of a season have made me realize more so why other fans hate us lol.
I'll actually agree with that. I'm not very old myself but I've been following prospects long enough that I've seen plenty of junior scoring stars suck and plenty of underwhelming junior players find themselves only at the higher levels. Mind you I've also seen great juniors become great NHLers, but the number one thing you learn is that development is often erratic and largely unpredictable beyond top 5 picks. Nothing is set in stone.

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11-29-2013, 11:02 PM
  #365
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On the topic of Centers, Sam Carrick has quietly made some big strides in his development this year with the Marlies.

19gp 2G 5A 7pts Team leading +9 40PIM

Really, just what any farm system needs. A 5th round pick that a lot of people might not have even considered for the top 30 prospects turns into a quality player. If he keeps developing as he has this season so far, he'll find a regular job in the NHL.

Oh hey, and now that i sift through the player list, it looks like Sparks is dominating the ECHL. I haven't watched him play those games obviously, but it's a good sign.

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11-30-2013, 06:56 AM
  #366
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On the topic of Centers, Sam Carrick has quietly made some big strides in his development this year with the Marlies.

19gp 2G 5A 7pts Team leading +9 40PIM

Really, just what any farm system needs. A 5th round pick that a lot of people might not have even considered for the top 30 prospects turns into a quality player. If he keeps developing as he has this season so far, he'll find a regular job in the NHL.
How would you describe his game? HF has it as:

"A stocky, hard nose player with an offensive touch, Carrick can be a pain to play against. He is a capable player at both ends of the ice and is a very willing physical combatant. Skating requires attention, but his hockey smarts allow him to get in good position on the ice. All these qualities make him a very desirable option for coaches as Carrick is adaptable."

I see he has gotten his weight up from 188 to 207, so I wonder how much of that is lower body and if his skating has improved.

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11-30-2013, 08:00 AM
  #367
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Carrick is just a work horse on the ice from what I've seen. Could be a decent depth/4th line center in a couple years, perhaps third line if he develops an offensive touch.

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11-30-2013, 08:45 AM
  #368
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No points for Gauthier again last night, -1, and against a sub .500 team.

No defence or offence, but it's early, let's give him another year.

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11-30-2013, 08:48 AM
  #369
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No points for Gauthier again last night, -1, and against a sub .500 team.

No defence or offence, but it's early, let's give him another year.
Did Rimousky win? How did he do on faceoffs? How many blocked shots? What was his TOI ES/PP/PK?

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11-30-2013, 08:52 AM
  #370
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Did Rimousky win? How did he do on faceoffs? How many blocked shots? What was his TOI ES/PP/PK?
Who cares, he hasn't impressed visually all year. This is a game where he should have dominated statistically against a mediocre opponent. I thought this was going to be a positive game for him on the box score. But again, it wasn't.

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11-30-2013, 08:57 AM
  #371
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Who cares, he hasn't impressed visually all year. This is a game where he should have dominated statistically against a mediocre opponent. I thought this was going to be a positive game for him on the box score. But again, it wasn't.
I'd be happy if he can be a jay mcclement clone, which doesn't mean he has to rip up the q. Tbh I didn't want us to take him, I wanted morgan klimchuk. I like going for upside in the first round and klimchuks got a lot.. Calgary got one heck of a player there at 28.

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11-30-2013, 09:02 AM
  #372
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Who cares, he hasn't impressed visually all year. This is a game where he should have dominated statistically against a mediocre opponent. I thought this was going to be a positive game for him on the box score.
Oh, you didn't watch him play? Meh. Rimouski lost 3 to 1.

I've seen him play quite a few times, once live when they played against the Olympiques, and he always stands out in a good way even when he doesn't put up big points.

He was 50% on faceoffs last night. He took 40% of his teams faceoffs too. The bad thing that jumps out is that he has no recorded hits; something he's been much better at this year has been his physicality.

Definitely needs to get points up though. He's a great puck carrier but his shot is really not that good and his wingers aren't exactly the best finishers either.

For Gauthier to be really successful in terms of getting goals and points, his coach needs to use him in front of the net on the PP, which they don't do unfortunately. He also needs to play meaner around the net, which he can do but a bit inconsistently.

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11-30-2013, 09:03 AM
  #373
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Oh, you didn't watch him play? Meh. Rimouski lost 3 to 1.

I've seen him play quite a few times and he always stands out in a good way even when he doesn't put up big points.

He was 50% on faceoffs last night. He took 40% of his teams faceoffs too, he took 30 faceoffs and the next closest was 23, and then 13. The bad thing that jumps out is that he has no recorded hits, something he's been much better at this year has been his physicality.

Definitely needs to get points up though. He's a great puck carrier but his shot is really not that good and his wingers aren't exactly the best finishers either.

For Gauthier to be really succesful in terms of getting goals and points, his coach needs to use him infront of the net on the PP, which they don't do unfortunately.
I saw him as most recently in the Subway series, and other than looking busy. Which I will give to him, he works hard. He looks like a bigger, perhaps faster Jamie Mcclement. How many goals has Jaime scored this year?

I'm not sure many would be pushing to draft Jamie Mcclement in the first rd this year or last year. We need offensive progression, I bet the Leafs expected this, this year.

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11-30-2013, 09:09 AM
  #374
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I'd be happy if he can be a jay mcclement clone, which doesn't mean he has to rip up the q. Tbh I didn't want us to take him, I wanted morgan klimchuk. I like going for upside in the first round and klimchuks got a lot.. Calgary got one heck of a player there at 28.
We can go over this again, but why torture ourselves. I agree, Klimchuk was a possible. I would have entertained moving #21 to get another pick, perhaps 2 2nd rd picks. If Montreal wanted him enough we could have got 2 high seconds for #21. This would have been a viable idea.

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11-30-2013, 09:12 AM
  #375
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I saw him as most recently in the Subway series, and other than looking busy. Which I will give to him, he works hard. He looks like a bigger, perhaps faster Jamie Mcclement. How many goals has Jaime scored this year?

I'm not sure many would be pushing to draft Jamie Mcclement in the first rd this year or last year. We need offensive progression, I bet the Leafs expected this, this year.
I don't disagree here that you want offensive progression. I think his ceiling will take a lot longer to achieve, if he ever does.

He's very raw. Perhaps a lot more raw then most thought, even the Leafs. You always want that progression in the stats line and it hasn't been there for Gauthier. I'd love to hear what the scouts think of his progression so far.

I understand that it's pretty much the only thing you can probably do is watch the stats line, but for someone like Gauthier it really doesn't do him justice. I can only suggest watching him play, one way or another, in order to really see how good he is.

He's got all the tools right now to be a very good NHLer in a couple years. We'll see how versatile his tool box can be.

Since he's a first round prospect though, the expectations of him being more than just a McClement clone is warranted. I do hope his offensive game goes to another level in the 2nd half of the season. Just like you, I am disappointed in his offensive output so far as he's capable of doing more.

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