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russia economic crisis - will it affect KHL?

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11-30-2013, 01:31 PM
  #51
Peter25
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
I think it would be safe to say that that Soviet schools were better than 90s youth development
Of course.

Almost all of the best Russian players in the 1990's were products of the Soviet Union. This is why Russia had so much depth in the 1990's compared to today's situation.

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, but also that KHL is better than 90s adult league
Naturally. Practically all the best Russian players left Russia in the 1990's and there were no foreign players in the Russian league then.

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USSR > MHL > 90s
I'm still not convinced that Russian development system now is better than what it was in the 1990's and early 2000's. I'm not seeing any new Malkin's or even Radulov's coming out.

But yes, the Soviet development system was superior to the current one.

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KHL > USSR League > RSL
USSR League > KHL > RSL.

The level of USSR league was ridiculously good. The CSKA was the best hockey club in the world, but other teams were really good as well. Dynamo Moscow, Spartak, Soviet Wings, Khimik, Torpedo, Traktor, SKA, Sokol, Dinamo Riga etc. Remember that these clubs won most the games against the NHL competition even when these games were mostly played in North America.

The USSR league also had fever teams than the KHL, whose level of play has been watered down with expansion.

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11-30-2013, 02:24 PM
  #52
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Just letting everyone know, this is in fact ******** and not factually correct. Though MTV3 is so incompetent in just about everything, they might as well have, but it's not due to bias but incompetence.
What I said earlier is correct. Helsingin Sanomat and MTV3 are both pro-American and pro-EU (generally pro-West) and that had a big effect on their coverage of Iraqi war.

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11-30-2013, 02:38 PM
  #53
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What I said earlier is correct. Helsingin Sanomat and MTV3 are both pro-American and pro-EU (generally pro-West) and that had a big effect on their coverage of Iraqi war.
That is your Russophilic opinion, not fact. Do not try to insult everyone's intelligence by claiming otherwise. I could suggest continuing this type of discussion at the Political Discussion section but I vividly/fondly remember how you got hammered there with facts when you tried pulling of your usual crap there years ago and have stayed away ever since.

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11-30-2013, 02:40 PM
  #54
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Well, if you spend on nothing, invest in nothing, and rely on gas prices to get you by...
Russia's budget has grown immensely from what it was about 10 years ago. And they have spent and invested, although more investment especially in infrastructure is needed. The salaries of state workers and pensions have risen.


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Russia's in trouble, don't pretend everything is all rosy. As a citizen, it's in your best interest to be concerned, is it not?
I'm not pretending Russia's economy is in a great shape now. I already said it is not.

But how is Russia "in trouble" compared to other European countries? When I look at basic indicators of the Russian economy they seem to be doing better than most of the European countries. Their budget deficit is small. They have no debt. Their unemployment is small. Their economy is still growing, even if the growth rate is small.

The big question is how sustainable Russia's current economic model and can Russia ever reach the living standards of Western Europe with the current economic model.

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No. Just no. How are you gauging this "fiscal performance"?
You can google it.

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Yes, Ukraine is in complete ****. Ukraine is Russia without the oil. Oligopoly, mafia state with the entire economy captive and syphoned off to offshore accounts.

Putin didn't do anything, right place at the right time.
Nigeria and Venezuela have also lots of oil but their economies are not in Russia's level. Russian economy = oil and gas is incorrect.

And yes, Putin did a lot of good thins especially during his first predidential season of 2000-2004.

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11-30-2013, 02:41 PM
  #55
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That is your Russophilic opinion, not fact.
It is a fact. Try to live with it.

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11-30-2013, 02:53 PM
  #56
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It is a fact. Try to live with it.
It is not a fact, not matter how hard you imagine it to be. If you insist with your childish repetition then i'll end this argument with "Is not times 10!!" and declare myself the winner of this argument and leave you as the limbless Black Knight. Seriously dude, the Iraq war and it's representation in the Finnish media is not the topic of this thread. Just let it go.

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11-30-2013, 04:28 PM
  #57
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KHL > USSR League
It depends on how you think about it. KHL has more parity among the teams, but the Soviet League had about 4 teams every season which would roll over KHL teams possibly other than two top ones.

Not to mention that Soviet allstars (=Soviet NT) would kill the KHL allstars.

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11-30-2013, 04:47 PM
  #58
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The point should not be whether Russia is doing well or bad, but that Russia with all its resources should be doing much much better and positng a growth rate of 5-8%.

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11-30-2013, 04:52 PM
  #59
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BTW, 59% of Russian GDP is services... The importance of oil is a little overblown, but addmitingly, a little, since naturally, services (banks, etc) function around an industry...

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11-30-2013, 04:56 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
It is not a fact, not matter how hard you imagine it to be.
Yes, it is a fact. I remember very well how the media covered the Iraqi war here and the difference is very substantial compared how the North Ossetian war was covered by the same media groups.

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11-30-2013, 05:05 PM
  #61
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By the way, hockey in 90's Russia was not as bad as many make it out to be. Yes, many teams were financially poor and the quality of play suffered a lot. But even in the worst years of the 1990's the Russian teams could compete against any team in other European leagues. One good example is that in 1994 Lada Togliatti defeated the stacked TPS (Turun Palloseura) and went to play against Jokerit (which had Selšnne and Kurri because of NHL lockout) in the European Champions League finals.

Lada Togliatti also won the European Champions League on 1996 winning Swedish Modo in finals.

There were many good hockey teams in Russia even in the "dark decade".

For me the best team in the 1990's Russian superleague (if you don't count the 1990-1992 CSKA and Dynamo Moscow) was the 1998-2000 Metallurg Magnitogorsk. That team could at least challence for the Gagarin Cup if it played in the KHL this season. Magnitogorsk won both Russian championships and European Champions League both in 1999 and 2000.

The Koreshkov brothers, Valeri Karpov, Oleg Mikulchik, Ravil Gusmanov, Sergei Osipov, Sergei Tertyshny, Alexei Stepanov (RIP), Vitali Prokhorov, Sergei Gomolyako, Konstantin Shafranov, Andrei Razin, Valeri Nikulin, Andrei Sapozhnikov, Vladimir Antipin... Very good roster and depth.

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12-01-2013, 02:48 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
By the way, hockey in 90's Russia was not as bad as many make it out to be. Yes, many teams were financially poor and the quality of play suffered a lot. But even in the worst years of the 1990's the Russian teams could compete against any team in other European leagues. One good example is that in 1994 Lada Togliatti defeated the stacked TPS (Turun Palloseura) and went to play against Jokerit (which had Selšnne and Kurri because of NHL lockout) in the European Champions League finals.

Lada Togliatti also won the European Champions League on 1996 winning Swedish Modo in finals.

There were many good hockey teams in Russia even in the "dark decade".

For me the best team in the 1990's Russian superleague (if you don't count the 1990-1992 CSKA and Dynamo Moscow) was the 1998-2000 Metallurg Magnitogorsk. That team could at least challence for the Gagarin Cup if it played in the KHL this season. Magnitogorsk won both Russian championships and European Champions League both in 1999 and 2000.

The Koreshkov brothers, Valeri Karpov, Oleg Mikulchik, Ravil Gusmanov, Sergei Osipov, Sergei Tertyshny, Alexei Stepanov (RIP), Vitali Prokhorov, Sergei Gomolyako, Konstantin Shafranov, Andrei Razin, Valeri Nikulin, Andrei Sapozhnikov, Vladimir Antipin... Very good roster and depth.
Still, there's no way players like Koreshkov brothers would be just as productive in the KHL. 90s Russian hockey had neither (non-post-Soviet) foreigners, nor NHL returnees. The first teams that began to attract that kind of players during the early 00s (Vujtek's Loko, Avangard) were scary good for their time. It's a whole different level of competitiveness today, you can't compare even the first and the current KHL seasons.

I also don't dig the KHL / USSR comparison. The Soviet league wasn't a hockey league in a modern sense, more like a national team development program utilizing an open Moscow championship. The whole attitude towards hockey was different altogether and, just like it happens with other Soviet institutes, its principles and practices are mostly inapplicable in modern day realities.

Comparing talent pools of different generations is not fair either. Back in the Malkin/Radulov year exactly 2,485,915 people were born in Russia, in Kuznetsov's 1992 it was 1,587,644, in Nichushkin's 1995 - 1,363,806. It's like the gap in proportion between Sweden and Finland. Of course most of those kids had no chance to start playing the game, because hockey is barely present in most of the Russian cities, but the overall picture is the same in every region.

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12-01-2013, 11:00 AM
  #63
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I edited some of the posts and issued warnings. Next time personal insult is thrown there will be supplemental discipline. These threads of political/economic nature are a good place to find trouble so maybe avoid it if you are coming here with bad intentions.

Please stay on topic here.

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12-01-2013, 11:23 AM
  #64
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BTW, 59% of Russian GDP is services... The importance of oil is a little overblown, but addmitingly, a little, since naturally, services (banks, etc) function around an industry...
Russia economy is definately not just oil and gas export. Obviously we depend on them a lot, but compared to EU and USA with their debt economics we are not so bad.

However, with our resources and possibilities, we should have been in much better shape right now.

Out system is corrupt and that is a hindrance. Though system in West is IMO even more corrupt.

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12-01-2013, 12:00 PM
  #65
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Russia economy is definately not just oil and gas export. Obviously we depend on them a lot, but compared to EU and USA with their debt economics we are not so bad.

However, with our resources and possibilities, we should have been in much better shape right now.

Out system is corrupt and that is a hindrance. Though system in West is IMO even more corrupt.
We? I thought you were Swedish???

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12-01-2013, 03:13 PM
  #66
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Ukraine is Russia without the oil. Oligopoly, mafia state with the entire economy captive and syphoned off to offshore accounts.
Actually, no. Russia is a better managed country than Ukraine. Russia has a better and more competent government than Ukraine.

In 1990 Ukraine was more developed industrially than Russia. It also had more developed agriculture and better living standards. Now the situation is completely reversed. Russia is far richer and more developed than Ukraine.

Ukraine GDP in 1990: 90 billion dollars
Ukraine GDP in 2012 - 175 billion dollars

Russia GDP in 1990: 569 billion dollars
Russia GDP in 2012 - 2015 billion dollars

During 1990-2012 Russia's GDP grew by by 354% in dollar value while Ukraine's economy grew by 194% in dollar value by comparison. Russia has achieved almost a twice the growth figures in 22 years compared to Ukraine.

Ukraine's poor performance is even more evident when you compare Ukraine to Belarus. Belarus has basically no natural resources, but it's GDP per capita is $15,592 while Ukraine, which has abundant natural resources, has a GDP per capita of only $7,600. That is only half of Belarus' economic output!

Ukraine's economic performance has been pitiful and it has been by far the biggest disappointment of the four big ex-Soviet states (Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus).


Last edited by Peter25: 12-01-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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12-01-2013, 03:33 PM
  #67
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It depends on how you think about it. KHL has more parity among the teams, but the Soviet League had about 4 teams every season which would roll over KHL teams possibly other than two top ones.
In Soviet league the four Moscow teams (CSKA, Spartak, Dynamo and Krylya) were far better than any KHL team today. Also teams like Torpedo, Riga, Traktor and Sokol were competitive against NHL competition.

KHL probably has more parity than the Soviet league considering that the KHL does not have a team like CSKA with basically two or three lines of national team players.

But the overall level of play in the Soviet league was almost certainly higher than it is in the KHL. Soviet league had less teams and a far larger and better player pool to select players.

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12-01-2013, 03:53 PM
  #68
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We? I thought you were Swedish???
Haha, no I'm from Russia. Though not russian by etnicity.

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12-01-2013, 04:05 PM
  #69
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Actually, no. Russia is a better managed country than Ukraine. Russia has a better and more competent government than Ukraine.

In 1990 Ukraine was more developed industrially than Russia. It also had more developed agriculture and better living standards. Now the situation is completely reversed. Russia is far richer and more developed than Ukraine.

Ukraine GDP in 1990: 90 billion dollars
Ukraine GDP in 2012 - 175 billion dollars

Russia GDP in 1990: 569 billion dollars
Russia GDP in 2012 - 2015 billion dollars

During 1990-2012 Russia's GDP grew by by 354% in dollar value while Ukraine's economy grew by 194% in dollar value by comparison. Russia has achieved almost a twice the growth figures in 22 years compared to Ukraine.

Ukraine's poor performance is even more evident when you compare Ukraine to Belarus. Belarus has basically no natural resources, but it's GDP per capita is $15,592 while Ukraine, which has abundant natural resources, has a GDP per capita of only $7,600. That is only half of Belarus' economic output!

Ukraine's economic performance has been pitiful and it has been by far the biggest disappointment of the four big ex-Soviet states (Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus).

Ukraine is divided into 2 regions. Eastern Ukraine has same living standarts as Russia(except for big cities and some rich regions like Yugra, Bashkortostan, Moscow region, St.Petersbourg region, Tatarstan, Chechnya). Western Ukraine is very poor.
And that is a strong reason why Ukraine is poor overall. One part wants in Europe and thinks that they will feed them and give them work and free money. Other part wants to be with Russia. There's no consensus line in politics.

Belarus made a very good buisness on their "isolation" status. You can produce for example pesticides that you would have trouble producing anywhere else because of ecological regulations which would make you pay all your profit.

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12-01-2013, 04:13 PM
  #70
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Haha, no I'm from Russia. Though not russian by etnicity.
So you live in Russia but are not Russian?

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12-01-2013, 04:38 PM
  #71
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Ukraine is divided into 2 regions.
I thought Ukraine could actually be split to three parts: pro-Russian Eastern Ukraine and Crimean peninsula, neutral Central Ukraine (where Kiev is located) and nationalistic, anti-Russian Western Ukraine (mainly Galicia).

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Eastern Ukraine has same living standarts as Russia(except for big cities and some rich regions like Yugra, Bashkortostan, Moscow region, St.Petersbourg region, Tatarstan, Chechnya).
This can be true. Donbass is developed and industrialized, at least by Ukrainian standards.

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Western Ukraine is very poor.
True, but they have better demographics than pro-Russian areas in Ukraine.

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One part wants in Europe and thinks that they will feed them and give them work and free money. Other part wants to be with Russia. There's no consensus line in politics.
If Ukraine joins EU it will be just another Romania or Bulgaria. It will lose it's industrial base and become a source of raw materials and cheap labor for colonial powers.

Right now there is an attempt to seize power by force and revolution in Kiev. If they succeed Ukraine will be even more doomed than it is now.

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12-01-2013, 05:16 PM
  #72
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[QUOTE=Den;75281191]The point should not be whether Russia is doing well or bad, but that Russia with all its resources should be doing much much better and positng a growth rate of 5-8%.[/QUOTE}

You may agree that, in order for Russia to start realizing those growth rates, a lot of in-depth changes will be needed. Not just economic, but political. And with the current regime in the saddle for a number of years ahead, those needed changes are unlikely to be forthcoming. On the other side of the coin, the guy in charge happens to like hockey, so he would probably let a lot of other things go before allowing hockey to decline.

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12-01-2013, 05:20 PM
  #73
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And with the current regime in the saddle for a number of years ahead, those needed changes are unlikely to be forthcoming.
And who is your alternative?

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12-01-2013, 07:13 PM
  #74
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So you live in Russia but are not Russian?
Yes, i am From Tatar nation, born and living in Russia. I am actually half russian half tatar but consider myself a tatar, because there's almost zero russian in my apperience))

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12-01-2013, 08:52 PM
  #75
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I thought Ukraine could actually be split to three parts: pro-Russian Eastern Ukraine and Crimean peninsula, neutral Central Ukraine (where Kiev is located) and nationalistic, anti-Russian Western Ukraine (mainly Galicia).


This can be true. Donbass is developed and industrialized, at least by Ukrainian standards.


True, but they have better demographics than pro-Russian areas in Ukraine.


If Ukraine joins EU it will be just another Romania or Bulgaria. It will lose it's industrial base and become a source of raw materials and cheap labor for colonial powers.

Right now there is an attempt to seize power by force and revolution in Kiev. If they succeed Ukraine will be even more doomed than it is now.
Bullcrap. Only reason you think it's doomed because people are unhappy with the current regime's pro-Russian attitude. If there's over half a million people marching peacefully on the streets against the president, then that is not a revolution. This is how the regime handled a peaceful demonstration: http://lb.ua/news/2013/11/30/243415_...azom_bili.html

Try getting your news from non-pro-Kreml sources for once in your life.

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