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Old
12-01-2013, 01:04 AM
  #1
blinds
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Our Top 6

So the Couturier line is looking fantastic, but our top 6 has been embarrassing at even strength. This has been going on since the start of last season.

What needs to be done to fix it? Originally people blamed our breakout and lack of puck movers on the backend, but that's been addressed for the most part and the even strength production is still pathetic. They can't establish any kind of sustained offensive zone pressure.

Giroux could use a sniper. Not sure what else to say about him, teams are taking his space away. Sitting at 5.6% shooting percentage still.

Hartnell is god awful and doesn't look like he should be anywhere near the top 2 lines. Can't take or make passes and he isn't doing well in the board battles and one-on-ones.

Voracek seems to have fallen off a cliff this season, although he still looks dangerous on the PP. Makes a ton of blind passes.

Schenn was good when he was scoring, but otherwise he's invisible. I'd like to see him on Giroux's wing, but Hartnell and Simmonds on one line could kill it.

Vinny doesn't seem to be able to do much with his linemates, maybe moving Voracek here so he could set up that bomb of a shot Vinny has could work out well.

Simmonds.. I don't think he's a top 6 kind of player. He's great on the PP in front of the net, but otherwise all he does at even strength is forecheck, and even that's not consistent game to game. So many turnovers.

One line will get hot for a couple games, but there's absolutely no consistency and long stretches of nothing. So what do you guys think needs changing, if anything?

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12-01-2013, 01:10 AM
  #2
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Trade them all!

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Old
12-01-2013, 01:20 AM
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Giroux needs support. We have a playmaker with nobody to set up.

I'm looking at you, Lazy V.

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Old
12-01-2013, 01:55 AM
  #4
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Giroux needs support. We have a playmaker with nobody to set up.

I'm looking at you, Lazy V.
That ill-timed line change during the powerplay that led to the too many men was real bad!

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Old
12-01-2013, 02:55 AM
  #5
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Flyers come a long way since the start of the season and the team looks much better now but at some point we should explore the options of a trade to rearrange the top-6.

Mason and the Coots line can't do it all. Next game in Minnesota on Monday will be tough one and we darely need our top guns to start producing.

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12-01-2013, 06:56 AM
  #6
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How about no trades until the off-season? Unless there is an absolute steal of course. Maybe mix up the lines except for the Couturier line?

Raffl-Giroux-Vinny
Read-Couts-Downie
Simmonds-Schenn-Voracek
Hartnell-Hall-Rinaldo

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Old
12-01-2013, 07:13 AM
  #7
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
How about no trades until the off-season? Unless there is an absolute steal of course. Maybe mix up the lines except for the Couturier line?

Raffl-Giroux-Vinny
Read-Couts-Downie
Simmonds-Schenn-Voracek
Hartnell-Hall-Rinaldo
yeah, best be patient

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Old
12-01-2013, 08:01 AM
  #8
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Voracek was an off-and-on player in Columbus and right now he's off. It also wasn't reasonable to expect him to shoot the lights out like he was last year.


Scott Hartnell is finished. He is not a top-line guy. We know he can't skate, he can't distribute the puck, and he is awful in every other facet of the game. I don't think it even needs to be an elite player to replace him with, just someone with a better skill set and proven track record with top-line players, like Alex Burrows and the like, would help Giroux tremendously.

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Old
12-01-2013, 08:38 AM
  #9
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I would either switch Vinny and Giroux or move Vinny to girouxs wing and move schenn back to center.

Schenn-Giroux-Simmonds
Hartnell-Lecavalier-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Downie

Or

Hartnell-Giroux-Lecavalier
Simmonds-Schenn-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Downie

The first option gives us a shooter(schenn and Vinny) and a great passer (Giroux and Voracek) on each line. The second tries to bring back the chemistry schenn and Voracek had in the past

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Old
12-01-2013, 08:40 AM
  #10
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It's pretty funny to see the tide change on Voracek so quickly. I remember last season I got laughed out of here for saying that I would trade Voracek for Bobby Ryan.

Voracek was the real deal. Bobby Ryan was just a product of playing with good players.

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Old
12-01-2013, 09:00 AM
  #11
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how about moving Simmonds to G's RW and getting a skilled LW

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Old
12-01-2013, 09:07 AM
  #12
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Eberle or yak were both supposedly available for Simmonds back when Edmonton was signing bryz. I think it might be time to re-visit those talks

Hartnell-Giroux-Eberle
Schenn-Vinny-Voracek
Downie-Couts-Read

That would be a lovely top 9.


Last edited by Prongo: 12-01-2013 at 09:48 AM.
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Old
12-01-2013, 10:36 AM
  #13
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At this point, I think I'd rather trade Hartnell than simmonds. Simmonds is at least contributing on the PP.

However, I feel like if Hartnell can remember that he's not really a 40 goal scoring sniper, and play the type of game that made him successful I think he can rebound.

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Old
12-01-2013, 11:58 AM
  #14
blinds
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Originally Posted by Funf View Post
At this point, I think I'd rather trade Hartnell than simmonds. Simmonds is at least contributing on the PP.

However, I feel like if Hartnell can remember that he's not really a 40 goal scoring sniper, and play the type of game that made him successful I think he can rebound.
I agree, it'd be nicer to keep Simmonds over Harts for what he brings on the PP and his age, but Hartnell also has a limited NTC (I think?) and has a lot of value off the ice to the franchise. Either way, with Hartnell, Simmonds and Downie now I think one should go in the offseason to help bring back a top line sniper.

Some line changes could be nice, but moving Vinny to 1RW doesn't address Hartnell bringing that line down. Switching Schenn and Hartnell could likely kill the 2nd line with both Harts and Simmonds on the same line. Raffl could be an option, but he's been mostly dead weight in the offensive zone from what I can remember of his time on the first line (so many missed shots).

These top two lines have very little speed and the only great shot is Vinny's. Having someone like Evander Kane or Eberle could help change the dynamic enormously, but the cost would also be enormous.

I'm not usually in favor of trading to fix every problem, but unless Hartnell can prove these last 2 seasons aren't a severe regression and Schenn can really step up his puck possession game, I think something needs to change. It's hard to really figure out what we have in Schenn.


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Old
12-01-2013, 12:03 PM
  #15
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Lack of two-way ability (pretty much completely as far as the top six goes) and Giroux is the only one that we can always feel safe with his production it seems like. Lecavalier can produce offensively now, but he feels like a waste at center considering he doesn't have two-way ability and his performance at the dot has been bad this season. I'm also afraid of that contract in the long-term.

Hartnell just seems like he's done, although I was never a fan of his to begin with so we'll see. Simmonds is the same player as Hartnell essentially each with some minor differences. Feels redundant to have both on the roster at the same time really and makes all the lines blurred with them.

Schenn needs to play at center just because he makes more sense there then Lecavalier. I've never been a big fan of Schenn either, but at least he knows how to finish in the slot.

Raffl just has zero finishing ability so he needs to stick to the fourth line for now.

Voracek I'm not disappointed or impressed with. This is about what I expected from him in Philly after trading for him. The performance last season made us all hope for more, but regardless this is about what I expected from him when we got him. Outside of last season he's never really proved to be a game changing player so I'll be happy as long as he just keeps putting up some decent scoring.

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Old
12-01-2013, 12:10 PM
  #16
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trade both Harts and Simmer...

neither are guys we can do without.

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Old
12-01-2013, 12:19 PM
  #17
blinds
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Lack of two-way ability (pretty much completely as far as the top six goes) and Giroux is the only one that we can always feel safe with his production it seems like. Lecavalier can produce offensively now, but he feels like a waste at center considering he doesn't have two-way ability and his performance at the dot has been bad this season. I'm also afraid of that contract in the long-term.

Hartnell just seems like he's done, although I was never a fan of his to begin with so we'll see. Simmonds is the same player as Hartnell essentially each with some minor differences. Feels redundant to have both on the roster at the same time really and makes all the lines blurred with them.

Schenn needs to play at center just because he makes more sense there then Lecavalier. I've never been a big fan of Schenn either, but at least he knows how to finish in the slot.

Raffl just has zero finishing ability so he needs to stick to the fourth line for now.

Voracek I'm not disappointed or impressed with. This is about what I expected from him in Philly after trading for him. The performance last season made us all hope for more, but regardless this is about what I expected from him when we got him. Outside of last season he's never really proved to be a game changing player so I'll be happy as long as he just keeps putting up some decent scoring.
I agree Vinny at C seems to be a waste at this point. I don't think anyone expected good defensive play, but his performance in the dot has been disappointing. I think most Flyers fans agree too that Schenn is at his best at center (although continuing to bounce him between positions probably isn't the greatest for his development), except for his faceoffs.. but hey, probably won't be much worse than Vinny and at least he should be able to defend better when he loses them. Maybe its time to change back to something like:

Hartnell - G - Vinny
Simmonds - Schenn - Voracek

Voracek on the 2nd line would be great just so that they stop trying to have Simmonds carry the puck in the neutral zone. Also I've liked what I've seen from Schenn and Voracek together before. Although can Simmonds play LW well? I don't remember.

Still feels to me that Harts and Simmonds will be the weak links on those lines. I don't know what it is, but they've been god awful for awhile at even strength. They just need to focus on forechecking, board battles and one on one battles. Simmonds trys to do too much with the puck and Hartnell is just awful at everything lately.


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Old
12-01-2013, 12:27 PM
  #18
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Voracek was the reason Giroux bounced back the second half of last season, so it is difficult to put to much blame on Voracek, but he has been much worse this year. Hartnell is looking more and more like a lost cause.

I really like when Schenn puts himself in a scoring position and gets it off quick or is in front of the net or just delivering a lined up body check. The rest of his game is below average IMO. He is horrible winning battles and carrying the puck on his stick through traffic. I really do not see him as a natural center.

I would like them to try Schenn with Giroux for 20 games and not deviate. It seems they have had little patience trying him there in the past, whereas Hartnell sticks on the shear hope he can be the player he was two years ago. Of course that leaves Hartnell - Vinny - Simmonds which isn't all that awe inspiring. I do think people on here are a little too hard on Simmonds though.

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Old
12-01-2013, 12:31 PM
  #19
Garbage Goal
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I agree Vinny at C seems to be a waste at this point. I don't think anyone expected good defensive play, but his performance in the dot has been disappointing. I think most Flyers fans agree too that Schenn is at his best at center (although continuing to bounce him between positions probably isn't the greatest for his development), except for his faceoffs.. but hey, probably won't be much worse than Vinny and at least he should be able to defend better when he loses them. Maybe its time to change back to something like:

Hartnell - G - Vinny
Simmonds - Schenn - Voracek

Voracek on the 2nd line would be great just so that they stop trying to have Simmonds carry the puck in the neutral zone. Also I've liked what I've seen from Schenn and Voracek together before. Although can Simmonds play LW well? I don't remember.

Still feels to me that Harts and Simmonds will be the weak links on those lines. I don't know what it is, but they've been god awful for awhile at even strength. They just need to focus on forechecking, board battles and one on one battles. Simmonds trys to do too much with the puck and Hartnell is just awful at everything lately.
Having both Hartnell and Simmonds on the roster with things progressing like they have been all season is what's going to give our top six the biggest problems all season long. Just very overly redundant to have both there, especially when Hartnell seems to have lost what game he had to begin with.

We're at a weird situation at C. Couturier and Giroux are here long-term if everything is right in the world, but then we have Lecavalier and Schenn in the NHL and Laughton in the minors. Even if we shift Lecavalier to wing and put Schenn at C, Laughton is going to be forced on to the NHL roster at some point next season I'm guessing considering he could probably be on the roster now and not look lost or out of place. That puts us in the same position as this season with wasting Laughton the fourth line when he needs a third line position at the very least.

That's longer term though. For now Lecavalier needs to be shifted to wing and Schenn put at center and for it to stick that way. Schenn can't be constantly bounced around the lineup like he has been and with young players like him they need experience in the dot to become proficient at it. If you look at faceoff performance for players almost all of them improve with age when you compare their first few seasons in the NHL to the middle of their careers. Schenn won't get that experience if he's being thrown around every which way and we know Lecavalier can't deliver at the dot as is anyhow.

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Old
12-01-2013, 02:51 PM
  #20
blinds
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Having both Hartnell and Simmonds on the roster with things progressing like they have been all season is what's going to give our top six the biggest problems all season long. Just very overly redundant to have both there, especially when Hartnell seems to have lost what game he had to begin with.

We're at a weird situation at C. Couturier and Giroux are here long-term if everything is right in the world, but then we have Lecavalier and Schenn in the NHL and Laughton in the minors. Even if we shift Lecavalier to wing and put Schenn at C, Laughton is going to be forced on to the NHL roster at some point next season I'm guessing considering he could probably be on the roster now and not look lost or out of place. That puts us in the same position as this season with wasting Laughton the fourth line when he needs a third line position at the very least.

That's longer term though. For now Lecavalier needs to be shifted to wing and Schenn put at center and for it to stick that way. Schenn can't be constantly bounced around the lineup like he has been and with young players like him they need experience in the dot to become proficient at it. If you look at faceoff performance for players almost all of them improve with age when you compare their first few seasons in the NHL to the middle of their careers. Schenn won't get that experience if he's being thrown around every which way and we know Lecavalier can't deliver at the dot as is anyhow.
Well, for the future we could always move both Vinny and Schenn to wing, have G, Couts, Laughton, Hall down the middle. Couts seems like he's ready for 2C duties, although it would hurt us by not having him play in an entirely shutdown role like he is now. Something like:

Schenn - G - Vinny
Read - Couts - Voracek
Hartnell - Laughton - Simmonds
Downie - Hall - Rinaldo

Although that's a waste having Downie on the 4th line. One of Hartnell, Simmonds, or Downie needs moving. Maybe even two of them.

But that's talk for next year at the earliest. Right now we seriously need something to change on the top line, we're throwing away some of G's potential by not having a guy for him to setup. Vinny could be that guy maybe, although his speed leaves something to be desired. Thing is, we need someone else on that line that is at least capable and Hartnell isn't.

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Old
12-01-2013, 03:23 PM
  #21
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Well, we don't really have anyone in-house to solve that. All of our big impact guys are in the lineup as is and our forward prospects are our biggest weak spot of the prospect pool. It has Laughton but he's a center so that point is kind of moot here.

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12-01-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Giroux needs support. We have a playmaker with nobody to set up.

I'm looking at you, Lazy V.
Giroux has been just as guilty as being lazy, there are so many shifts where he is such a non factor. On top of that I can think of half a dozen goals that show him coasting on the backcheck. No player can do that, but as a captain especially you have to set the example.

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Old
12-01-2013, 03:25 PM
  #23
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I'd rather go after Max Paciorretty or Evander Kane than Eberle or Yakupov.

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12-01-2013, 04:21 PM
  #24
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Move Hartnell to 4th line might wake him up. Cant put him on the 3rd line because that would stink up Couturier's game like its doing for Giroux. They seriously overestimated Hartnell's ability.

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12-01-2013, 04:22 PM
  #25
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Giroux has been just as guilty as being lazy, there are so many shifts where he is such a non factor. On top of that I can think of half a dozen goals that show him coasting on the backcheck. No player can do that, but as a captain especially you have to set the example.
Pretty much, it's amazing how this has gone unnoticed by many here. Giroux's been pretty average this year so far.

Voracek was pretty lackadaisical last night but the most part the effort has been there this year he just hasn't been able to get any results.

Him & Giroux have been average this year & it's unacceptable, players of their caliber's should be playing at a higher level.

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