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AAA 2013 preliminary round: Michigan vs. Birmingham

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Old
11-29-2013, 12:32 AM
  #1
seventieslord
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AAA 2013 preliminary round: Michigan vs. Birmingham

Michigan Wolverines

Red Berenson, Coach

Shawn McEachern - Viktor Zhluktov (C) - Wildor Larochelle
Chris Kunitz - Walt McKechnie - Sergei Svetlov
Benoit Hogue- George Ferguson (A) - Ken Schinkel
Chris Simon - Steve Rucchin - Matthew Barnaby
Yanic Perreault, Nelson Emerson

Keith Brown - Igor Stelnov
Moe Mantha (A) - Bert Marshall
Jimmy Orlando - Larry Zeidel
Pete Goegan, Mike Rathje

Guy Hebert
Hec Fowler

PP1: Shawn McEachern - Viktor Zhluktov - Wildor Larochelle, Keith Brown - Moe Mantha
PP2: Chris Kunitz - Walt McKechnie - Sergei Svetlov, Igor Stelnov - Steve Rucchin

PK1: George Ferguson - Ken Schinkel, Keith Brown - Igor Stelnov
PK2: Steve Rucchin - Benoit Hogue, Bert Marshall - Jimmy Orlando

VS.

Burmingham Barracuda's

Coach - Jacques Martin

Greg Adams - John Cullen - Phil Kessel
Justin Williams - Dan Quinn - Wayne Connelly
Randy Burridge - Thomas Plekanec - Pat Boutette
Rick Dudley(C) - Radek Bonk - Matt Cooke

Mark Hardy - Paul Martin (A)
Barret Jackman (A) - Brad Stuart
Lyle Odelien - Jaro Spacek

Goaltenders
Jose Theodore (1)
Viktor Zinger (2)

Spares
Frank Rankin (Rover)C/D
Mark Hunter RW
Lou Lameroux D
Joffery Lupul LW

PP1
Adams - Quinn - Kessel
Spacek - Hardy

PP2
Burridge - Cullen - Connelly
Stuart - Martin

PK1
Plekanec - Cooke
Jackman - Martin

PK2
Bonk - Boutette
Stuart - Odelien

1916 or earlier - Frank Rankin
1917-1942 - Lou Lameroux
1943-1965 - Wayne Connelly, Viktor Zinger
1966-1979 - Rick Dudley, Pat Boutette
1980-1994 - Randy Burridge, Mark Hardy, Lyle Odelien, John Cullen, Dan Quinn, Mark Hunter, Jacques Martin
1994-2004 - Greg Adams, Jose Theodore, Jaro Spacek, Radek Bonk,
in 2013 - Phil Kessel, Justin Williams, Paul Martin, Brad Stuart, Barrett Jackman, Thomas Plekanec, Matt Cooke


Last edited by seventieslord: 12-02-2013 at 11:50 PM.
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Old
11-29-2013, 07:09 PM
  #2
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This has all kinds of potential as a series.

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11-29-2013, 07:11 PM
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However, budsbuster (like hobnobs) can be quite emotional and impulsive so I hope he hasn't just given up after finishing 5th. I tried telling him it was very close...


Last edited by seventieslord: 11-29-2013 at 07:18 PM.
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11-30-2013, 06:58 PM
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Except for Cullen I like Buds first line but I think mines better as it provides a bit of two-way play instead of just offense.

My second line is better too, even if I have offensively weak center. Dan Quinn just isn't much to talk about came to the Pens at the right time and played with Mario. Wayne Connelly weren't good enough to be an AAA player in my opinion.

I like Buds third line! It's based on Plekanec's two-way play and Burridge physical play, Boutette works as the grinder who also could throw em. But it feels more of an energy line.

I think I come up on top again with our 4th line because Barracudas just seems like a mish mash of players. Cooke is the physical aspect I guess but then Bonk and Dudley? Dudley was gritty and Bonk, well, he provides some offense.

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11-30-2013, 07:49 PM
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seventieslord
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Bonk was outstanding defensively for this level... and did Quinn ever play with Mario?

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12-01-2013, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Bonk was outstanding defensively for this level... and did Quinn ever play with Mario?
Yes, he did. That's why Pens thought it was a good idea to bring him back in the late 90s.

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12-01-2013, 10:30 AM
  #7
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Yes, he did. That's why Pens thought it was a good idea to bring him back in the late 90s.
What wing did he play with Mario?

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12-01-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
What wing did he play with Mario?
I'm not certain but I think LW and mostly on the PP instead of Errey. I do know he got some time on Mario's line at ES too though. Point is he was a 60-65 point player in a high scoring era.

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12-01-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I'm not certain but I think LW and mostly on the PP instead of Errey. I do know he got some time on Mario's line at ES too though. Point is he was a 60-65 point player in a high scoring era.
He averaged 68.5 points per 80 games, and he missed the entire 93 season in which he missed out on a possible huge spike.

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12-01-2013, 01:10 PM
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Rob Scuderi
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Here's what Joe Pelletier's profile says about Quinn

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Meanwhile in Pittsburgh Quinn was the number 2 center on a team which of course featured the great Mario Lemieux. Quinn put up some good numbers in his stay in the Steel City, even though he rarely played with Mario except on the power plays.
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I'm not certain but I think LW and mostly on the PP instead of Errey. I do know he got some time on Mario's line at ES too though. Point is he was a 60-65 point player in a high scoring era.
Only 25 of Errey's career 382 points came on the PP so he definitely wasn't playing there.

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12-01-2013, 01:13 PM
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seventieslord
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Sounds like a usual case of a second line center getting on the PP over a less talented first line winger. That's what I thought.

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12-02-2013, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Except for Cullen I like Buds first line but I think mines better as it provides a bit of two-way play instead of just offense.

My second line is better too, even if I have offensively weak center. Dan Quinn just isn't much to talk about came to the Pens at the right time and played with Mario. Wayne Connelly weren't good enough to be an AAA player in my opinion.

I like Buds third line! It's based on Plekanec's two-way play and Burridge physical play, Boutette works as the grinder who also could throw em. But it feels more of an energy line.

I think I come up on top again with our 4th line because Barracudas just seems like a mish mash of players. Cooke is the physical aspect I guess but then Bonk and Dudley? Dudley was gritty and Bonk, well, he provides some offense.
Now let me start with this, Im very confused and shocked we are playing in the first round. I thought for sure I had the 3 seed locked at worst and you the 4-5th. So we should not have even been meeting right now. again in my opinion.

to your comments on Cullen and Quinn. I tend to strongly disagree.

When you look at my team compared to any team in this draft I am above average at every spot. Except 2.

Cullen yes can be seen as a blow average center here. But not bottom 3. . He is there to provide solid defense for a guy just starting to play two ways. The most expolsive offensive threat in the is draft Kessel.

And Theodore. But again not bottom 3. His Hart trophy puts him miles ahead of most in terms of peak.

He has won 60 more games than lost as well. Even saying he won more than he lost is more than you can say about Herbert.

And coming from a guy with Shawn McEachern on his top line that is off base. I see him as very average.

Also Kunitz... Im not sure I need to say anything , but there is a guy who benefited from some good line mates to bloat his numbers..... hed never top 45 points ever if not on a line with Crosby, or Malkin, or Getzlaf or Perry. Playing every second he is on the ice with one of those guys.

Even a couple years he did play along side them he did nothing special. 2009-2011

and Walt McKechnie is not the guy to get him to those numbers. Actually no one is this draft can.

Also Quinn played very little with Mario as Scudari pointed out. So that point is nor fact or realivent.

I easily have the bottom two lines dominated. My fourth line consists of A defensive wiz with size and skill in Bonk who scored at a realitively nice pace for the dead puck era.
Dudley has leadership coupled with solid defense, energy, heart and offense.
Cooke is there to agitate, board work and chipping in the odd goal. He also fit the bill of a Goon / Agitator that can play... Unlike Simon who will be in the box more than on the Ice. And I never liked his greasy Mullet. Him alone would be fine on that line but the fact Barnaby is there to which is just a little less effective player than Cooke there hurts.

Dudley makes this line better with a ppg season in the WHA and 70 in the NHL.

Honestly Rucchin is only a small step behind Bonk in my opinion.

Now my third line has the consesnus 3rd best 3rd line center. ( Dalhstrom and Schock) are the only two that have a case, that I could place ahead.

Paired with the guys he is, this line will frustrate top lines.
This is a shut down line. Im so confiedent in Plekanec, I would have no problem with him playing up or down a line in my line up. He is just good everywhere. PP, PK, ES. It just doesn't matter.

Connelly played a total of 543 games in the NHL with 133 goals and 174 assists for a total of 307 points. In addition, he played 366 games in the WHA for the Minnesota Fighting Saints, Cleveland Crusaders, Calgary Cowboys, and Edmonton Oilers with 167 goals and 162 assists for 329 points.
Connelly won the Red Tilson Award in 1959–60 as the Ontario Hockey League's most outstanding player while with the Peterborough Petes. Connelly scored 235 points in 4 seasons with the Pete's (1956–1960).

He also placed top 10 in goals 3 times in his career (4th, 9th and 5th) and points once (4th)
This alone puts him ahead of Sergei Svetlov who failed to play in the NHL. And best year was 5th is goals in the K, Which uts him close to or on par With Connelleys peak in the NHL.


He is more than quailfied to play in the AAA draft.

Defense is where I see a clear advantage to me.

I would say Marshall and Stuart or pretty much even but Jackman is miles head of Mantha.

Orlando could barely keep his Job in the O6 era. Only lasting 4 full years.


Last edited by BudsBuster: 12-02-2013 at 07:12 PM. Reason: spelling error LOL
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Old
12-02-2013, 10:50 PM
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Also I swapped MArtin and Spacek on the PP units. Can you fix Seventies?

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12-02-2013, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudsBuster View Post
Also I swapped MArtin and Spacek on the PP units. Can you fix Seventies?
Done.

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12-03-2013, 01:23 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudsBuster View Post
When you look at my team compared to any team in this draft I am above average at every spot. Except 2.
You don't.

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Cullen yes can be seen as a blow average center here. But not bottom 3. . He is there to provide solid defense for a guy just starting to play two ways. The most expolsive offensive threat in the is draft Kessel.
Cullen is the wrong center to provide solid defense, not that he's terrible at it but if you think he was some kind of two-way wiz you are wrong. He did vey well in Tampa but the rest of his career he was an offensive guy with holes in his game.

Quote:
And Theodore. But again not bottom 3. His Hart trophy puts him miles ahead of most in terms of peak.

He has won 60 more games than lost as well. Even saying he won more than he lost is more than you can say about Herbert.
His hart do not put him over any other goalie in the draft considering how he did after. His hart year is an outlier and more of a fluke than proof that he was elite. And let's not compare wins (a team stat) between a goalie for an expansion team and a goalie who played behind a definsive team. He's won 20 more games than he's lost so that don't really impress me. Theodore is a bad pick at this level.

Quote:
And coming from a guy with Shawn McEachern on his top line that is off base. I see him as very average.
an average guy with above average line mates.

Quote:
Also Kunitz... Im not sure I need to say anything , but there is a guy who benefited from some good line mates to bloat his numbers..... hed never top 45 points ever if not on a line with Crosby, or Malkin, or Getzlaf or Perry. Playing every second he is on the ice with one of those guys.

Even a couple years he did play along side them he did nothing special. 2009-2011
He did nothing special, yet won a cup while adding loads of sandpaper for the best team in the NHL. Kunitz is basically Granato minus leadership.

Quote:
Also Quinn played very little with Mario as Scudari pointed out. So that point is nor fact or realivent.
No, he only played with Mario when he could boost his offensive stats the most. On the PP. Lacking a defensive game this is not a good enough offensive player to give your team anything but troubles.

Quote:
I easily have the bottom two lines dominated. My fourth line consists of A defensive wiz with size and skill in Bonk who scored at a realitively nice pace for the dead puck era.
Dudley has leadership coupled with solid defense, energy, heart and offense.
Cooke is there to agitate, board work and chipping in the odd goal. He also fit the bill of a Goon / Agitator that can play... Unlike Simon who will be in the box more than on the Ice. And I never liked his greasy Mullet. Him alone would be fine on that line but the fact Barnaby is there to which is just a little less effective player than Cooke there hurts.
You have my lines dominated because you avoid to talk about my best bottom-6ers. Ferguson is better than anything you have. Bonk is not a defensive wiz and was good-great defensively. Cooke is a goon with very little skill. Why would Simon be in the box most of the time? Did you even watch him play in his prime?

Barnaby is most likely the best and most agitator in the NHL of all-time. To say he's less effective than Cooke makes me wonder if you've simply looking at stats and youtube videos to gather information about players.

Quote:
Dudley makes this line better with a ppg season in the WHA and 70 in the NHL.
A PPG season in WHA adds nothing to his resume really. Not to mention, he has basically no playoff experience.

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Now my third line has the consesnus 3rd best 3rd line center. ( Dalhstrom and Schock) are the only two that have a case, that I could place ahead.

Paired with the guys he is, this line will frustrate top lines.
This is a shut down line. Im so confiedent in Plekanec, I would have no problem with him playing up or down a line in my line up. He is just good everywhere. PP, PK, ES. It just doesn't matter.
Plekanec is good but he's not top 3 when it comes to checking in this draft.

Quote:
Connelly played a total of 543 games in the NHL with 133 goals and 174 assists for a total of 307 points. In addition, he played 366 games in the WHA for the Minnesota Fighting Saints, Cleveland Crusaders, Calgary Cowboys, and Edmonton Oilers with 167 goals and 162 assists for 329 points.
Connelly won the Red Tilson Award in 195960 as the Ontario Hockey League's most outstanding player while with the Peterborough Petes. Connelly scored 235 points in 4 seasons with the Pete's (19561960).

He also placed top 10 in goals 3 times in his career (4th, 9th and 5th) and points once (4th)
This alone puts him ahead of Sergei Svetlov who failed to play in the NHL. And best year was 5th is goals in the K, Which uts him close to or on par With Connelleys peak in the NHL.


He is more than quailfied to play in the AAA draft.
Watched him play many times. He was a fringe player who got to play on an expansion team and managed to score some goals in a poor division. What is he doing with Plekanec, he was nothing special defensively if you believe that.


Quote:
I would say Marshall and Stuart or pretty much even but Jackman is miles head of Mantha.

Orlando could barely keep his Job in the O6 era. Only lasting 4 full years.
Orlando was arrested for draft evasion and some other crimes. He didn't leave the league because he wasn't good enough. He then enlisted to avoid prison. So it's kinda irritating see you spew garbage over something you have absolutely no clue about.

Besides Brown, Stelnov and Marshall trumps anything you have. Orlando and Zeidel will destroy your team as you have no physical elements to really counter them. Remember I have home team advantage so I get to decide whos going to match up with who throughout this series.

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12-03-2013, 08:29 PM
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all you are saying is no he is not this or that. Show me numbers or stats to show me im wrong...

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12-03-2013, 09:29 PM
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Birmingham defeats Michigan in 7 games

Three Stars:

1. Phil Kessel
2. Viktor Zhluktov
3. Guy Hebert

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12-04-2013, 12:03 AM
  #18
seventieslord
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Wow. Good series. The most heated for sure.

BB, you better step up your game because although I did prefer your team, your opponent was making good points and you didn't have too much of an answer for him. I expected you to lose, the way this was going.

I did want to come in here and address a few things...

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12-04-2013, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Cullen is the wrong center to provide solid defense, not that he's terrible at it but if you think he was some kind of two-way wiz you are wrong. He did vey well in Tampa but the rest of his career he was an offensive guy with holes in his game.
You are pretty much right about this, jkrx. When we were discussing centers pre-draft, BB showed me a list and asked which ones had any defense to them (his plan was always to draft Kessel). They were pretty much all devoid of defense except for Jackson, Cassels and Cullen. I did say he had "a bit" of a two-way game but maybe BB is a little over-enthusiastic about it too. As a scorer I don't remember him being a defensive whiz (I'd have to read some scouting reports to get a better idea of that), and even later on in his career (like Toronto, where I remember him best) he wasn't an "ideal" checker, more of a fading scorer who would take a lesser role and do what it took to win. Certainly more intangibles than most of these AAA scoring line centers, but that's not saying much, y'know?

Quote:
His hart do not put him over any other goalie in the draft considering how he did after. His hart year is an outlier and more of a fluke than proof that he was elite. And let's not compare wins (a team stat) between a goalie for an expansion team and a goalie who played behind a definsive team. He's won 20 more games than he's lost so that don't really impress me. Theodore is a bad pick at this level.
I definitely do not agree that he is a bad pick at this level. However, BB does beat the "peak" drum a little too hard when it comes to theodore. Look at all the one-season wonders out there for goalies. There are still what, a dozen goalies left who were post-season all-stars and haven't been picked yet (and don't deserve to have been, either). Now, I don't count Theodore among them, but I am a "big picture" guy when it comes to goalies, and Theodore's weighted career average is one sv% point above the league average throughout his career. That's decent for this level considering it's an average that was maintained over 648 games. But what's scary about that is, if you just remove that one season, he was below the league average by a point and a half throughout his career. Again, that's still not bad, just being a contributor for that long makes one a decent AAA goalie and you can't make 2002 disappear in reality.

Basically he's not as good as BB thinks and definitely not as bad as you think.

You're right that comparing regular season win totals is pointless.

Quote:
No, he only played with Mario when he could boost his offensive stats the most. On the PP. Lacking a defensive game this is not a good enough offensive player to give your team anything but troubles.
You're right about the negatives, and I did warn BB about this in advance but he was concerned about having checkers like Plekanec and Bonk on a second line and wanted the best offensive guy left.

As for the positives - his offensive skill - you probably are right that it's a bit overstated. We should have looked this up earlier to settle that part of your debate. Quinn had 273 points in Pittsburgh, and 120 of them were on the PP. 44% is extremely high.

Quote:
You have my lines dominated because you avoid to talk about my best bottom-6ers. Ferguson is better than anything you have. Bonk is not a defensive wiz and was good-great defensively. Cooke is a goon with very little skill. Why would Simon be in the box most of the time? Did you even watch him play in his prime?
I don't see how Ferguson (good player who I like and originally introduced to these drafts) is better than Plekanec or Bonk - offensively or defensively. Bonk had a season 7th in Selke voting and although miscast on a first line, the Sens actually won a president's trophy with him on a first line. His even strength offense is through the roof for a guy on a lower line in the AAA.

production-wise, Cooke matches up fairly well to a guy like Darcy Tucker. I think your comment is unfair.

You're right about Simon. He actually took very few penalties that weren't for punching out another guy's lights.

Quote:
Barnaby is most likely the best and most agitator in the NHL of all-time. To say he's less effective than Cooke makes me wonder if you've simply looking at stats and youtube videos to gather information about players.
I think that's hyperbole... there have been plenty of outstanding agitators. Tikkanen, Leswick, Lemieux, Tucker, Avery, Ott, Linseman, Verbeek, Subban, Burrows, Golonka, Clarke, Samuelsson, Butcher, Kasparaitis... and I'm trying to stick to names of players who could at least play in the AA or better. I think Barnaby and Cooke both fit in here. Sorting all these names out would be an interesting endeavor.

But as far as what BB said, I think it's fair. Cooke is similarly skilled in the areas Barnaby is, but is also a much better scorer and penalty killer. No?

Quote:
A PPG season in WHA adds nothing to his resume really. Not to mention, he has basically no playoff experience.
What BB should have said was he averaged a point per game for 3 and a half WHA seasons. You must remember him; he was a very effective player and just 10% of his NHL points were scored on the PP too.

As far as the playoff experience goes, he does have 29 games... that's not much, I know. But he did go to the finals with Buffalo, and in that season earned 5 voting points for the Hart, so although it was a rogue vote, someone thought he did something special.

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Watched him play many times. He was a fringe player who got to play on an expansion team and managed to score some goals in a poor division. What is he doing with Plekanec, he was nothing special defensively if you believe that.
I think Connelly is "adequate" for the AAA but he's nothing special. You're right about the expansion division piece. I was skeptical of him the first time VI took him 3 years ago, and after running the numbers, found that his totals did indeed warrant a closer look considering how much more his team scored against the expansion teams. It's something I've kind of "set aside", preferring to focus on his WHA scoring as a basis for drafting him. But you're right that his best NHL season isn't exactly a "face value" thing.

Quote:
Orlando was arrested for draft evasion and some other crimes. He didn't leave the league because he wasn't good enough. He then enlisted to avoid prison. So it's kinda irritating see you spew garbage over something you have absolutely no clue about.
Although you're right, that's still lost time that cost him a lot of games that would have added to his career value. He shouldn't get a "free pass".

Quote:
Besides Brown, Stelnov and Marshall trumps anything you have. Orlando and Zeidel will destroy your team as you have no physical elements to really counter them. Remember I have home team advantage so I get to decide whos going to match up with who throughout this series.
I think the proper counter-argument to this would have been that Orlando and Zeidel aren't very good players so let them try to catch and destroy BB's players.

As far as physicality to counter them, have you seen his 3rd and 4th line wingers and left side defensemen? This would not be a one-sided physical battle. I think your teams are about equal in toughness/physicality, but your toughness is highly concentrated in three players (Zeidel, Orlando, Simon) and they're three players who wouldn't be credible AAA players if not for their toughness.

You fought a good fight. Congrats on a good series.

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12-04-2013, 02:11 AM
  #20
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Although you're right, that's still lost time that cost him a lot of games that would have added to his career value. He shouldn't get a "free pass".
I dont think he meant that it should give him a free pass but rather that it was a cheapshot by buds to say he was out of the league because he was bad.

Wrong team won specially when you view who argued

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12-04-2013, 09:38 PM
  #21
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The argument should only have so much to do with it. The better team should win. Ill admit, my knowledge of the O6 era is shaky at best but I know my Modern players well.

Was a heated battle and Im happy to win, as I said it was a shame we met now. I was up against a solid team. And now I play a scary opponent......

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