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Holmgren DOESN'T deserve to get fired

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Old
11-14-2013, 01:22 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Roloson was good for like, half a year. Turco was finished. Niemi wasn't really available and Halak would have cost a fortune. I maintain he didn't have many good options.
Each of those options was better than Michael ****ing Leighton signed BEFORE free agency began. Surely he could have put together the deal he did for Versteeg for a real goalie like Niemi or Halak...at least that deal wouldn't have been largely pointless and a waste of a first.

Niemi was released to unrestricted free agency by the Hawks. If the Flyers hadn't signed Leighton before FA began, they couldn've made a play for him without costing themselves anything, but Homer didn't even give himself a chance. Homer really botched that situation. Leighton needed to be the last solution, not the first.

I disagree he played well enough to justify his signing. He very clearly looked like a goalie benefitting from some exceptional (and grueling) defensive play the whole time. Expecting the team to maintain that level of play for 2 more years would have been absurd.

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11-14-2013, 01:29 PM
  #252
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there was ZERO justification in signing Leighton. Especially the day before free agency began. That one move led to a chain of events that led to the trading of not one but 2 of our best players just so we could get a goaltender.
This subject has been beaten to death. I know the Holmgren supporters dont think the Leighton signing led to the circus that followed but it did.

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11-14-2013, 02:27 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, that's the whole point. If you're going to follow the strategy Homer was following, the team is going to get blown up. The cap doesn't allow you to build like that. Predicting which players are going to go isn't possible, but realizing that the team is going to be blown apart is.





You're arguing for making a move every now and then when the time is right. I'm behind that. However, that flat out isn't what Homer did. Homer was moving firsts, seconds, and players taken in those rounds non-stop until we literally had none of those left to move and the team was against the ledge when it could've used young, cheap talent badly.

If his strategy was still in full force we would be seeing second and first rounders and prospects traded still. We haven't seen that. He's been keeping all his picks for the first time since 2007, his first draft in charge. I recall him saying publicly that they were moving away from that strategy, too. Based on how he's run the team since 2011 compared to how it was run before, it looks like he was serious.
I suppose we'll see.

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11-14-2013, 02:44 PM
  #254
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I suppose we'll see.
Chris Pryor in this last draft also stressed how the strategy of trading draft picks in the "prior" years was not prudent.

Really people....lots of these arguments had on this board sometimes amaze me b/c many fail to recall the words and admissions of management itself.

Below is an example and this was before they went and got that mental case Bryz...another "mistake" they admitted.

Yet all these "mistakes" are supposedly progressive and not regressive......(cue in twilight zone music)


Quote:
Paul Holmgren talked about the draft on a conference call with reporters. I know, believe it or not, it wasn't just silence for 20 minutes. That doesn't mean he said a lot, but it's still worth reading whenever the general manager speaks.

Of note, he did express the idea that the organization cannot continue on the path of not holding any high draft picks, but he also said that having a high volume of later round picks can work out in your favor, as opposed to having one pick in all seven rounds. I would like to argue with him on that notion.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...nhl-draft-2011

Quote:
: Do you feel that, from an organizational standpoint, there is that need to move up in the draft?

"Again, we will continue to look at things and see what's available and do what we think is right for the organization. We will sort through that one. We have a lot of picks. Look at where we are at this year, we have five picks right now.

Next year we are missing a couple already. Obviously we can't continue to do that. We need to, especially the higher picks - we can't keep giving them up. I think we have made some deals for higher picks that have given us good players that are still of a good age that will be good players for a number of years, but looking at this draft, we're certainly open to talking about certain things. Whether anything happens or not, I don't know, but right now our first pick is at 84 of the 3rd round and there is a chance that we can get a good player there."


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 11-14-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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11-14-2013, 03:19 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Chris Pryor in this last draft also stressed how the strategy of trading draft picks in the "prior" years was not prudent.

Really people....lots of these arguments had on this board sometimes amaze me b/c many fail to recall the words and admissions of management itself.

Below is an example and this was before they went and got that mental case Bryz...another "mistake" they admitted.

Yet all these "mistakes" are supposedly progressive and not regressive......(cue in twilight zone music)
And there we go. Why didn't you post this a week ago to just end the argument.

I still wouldn't have a problem if they kept doing it if the opportunity presented itself, nor would I go back and undo the Pronger-esque deals (outside of the obvious Eminger-esque deals).

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11-14-2013, 03:25 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
And there we go. Why didn't you post this a week ago to just end the argument.

I still wouldn't have a problem if they kept doing it if the opportunity presented itself, nor would I go back and undo the Pronger-esque deals (outside of the obvious Eminger-esque deals).
Because I enjoy massive threads and parsed posts......

But seriously, am I the only one keeping tabs on what management actually says or have data mining skills over the internet..jeesh!

Of course all this will go down the memory hole again and the Holmgren detractors will be considered unreasonable with some of their grievances which as you see are very real and legit.....

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11-14-2013, 03:37 PM
  #257
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Because I enjoy massive threads and parsed posts......

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12-01-2013, 11:26 AM
  #258
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I will say this:

Last year Holmgren was under a lot of fire because he traded Bobrovsky...who happened to go on an have a hot couple of months and win the Vezina. This year no one is talking about it...and while everyone is praising Mason, no one seems to be giving Holmgren credit for bringing in Mason for essentially nothing. We basically traded Bob for Mason and I would make that trade 10 times out of 10.

Homer makes a lot of dumb moves...but he also makes a lot of really good ones and never seems to get credit for them. Read was another fantastic signing...and Raffl looks to be a keeper too.

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12-01-2013, 11:51 AM
  #259
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Yes, but he also does a lot of needlessly dumb crap that hamstrings his good moves.

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12-01-2013, 12:06 PM
  #260
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Actually I have brought up Mason in several of my anti-Homer posts, usually in the context of yes he brought in Mason but that's one of the few good trades/moves he's made recently and that most of his 'good moves' have been in the past. He get's some credit for guys like Read and Raffl but much like recent drafts more of the credit goes to the scouting staff (though he does make the final decisions so he gets credit for that). The areas he has the most control (if not total control) is making trades, signing FAs, and negotiating contracts with players on the roster. His moves in those areas (and the seeming inability to address certain areas) particularly in the last 2 or 3 years. I still think he has done a poor job and would prefer him to be fired. A nice 15 (or so) streak of not playing like garbage hasn't changed my opinion; however, it has made it extreamly unlikely that he will be fired at least in the short term so I haven't found it worth while to discuss.

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12-01-2013, 01:22 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mota View Post
I will say this:

Last year Holmgren was under a lot of fire because he traded Bobrovsky...who happened to go on an have a hot couple of months and win the Vezina. This year no one is talking about it...and while everyone is praising Mason, no one seems to be giving Holmgren credit for bringing in Mason for essentially nothing. We basically traded Bob for Mason and I would make that trade 10 times out of 10.

Homer makes a lot of dumb moves...but he also makes a lot of really good ones and never seems to get credit for them. Read was another fantastic signing...and Raffl looks to be a keeper too.
That's because the number or dumb moves > number of good moves. Raffl is no keeper, he hasn't even scored a goal yet and was getting scratched for Jay Rosehill. The number of trades made, draft picks blown, and contracts handed out, and we're spending a ton of money on defensemen, none of which you could deem part of a long-term solution.


Also, have to give the same amount of time on Mason as you're giving for Bobrovsky. Mason could easily crash to earth at any given moment, and it could be before or after giving him a huge long-term contract.

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12-01-2013, 01:35 PM
  #262
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I know people want to give Holmgren a break for trading for Mason and finding Couturier, but Bobrovsky is just as talented as Mason whose career is just as uncertain as Mason's at the moment. Couturier is fantastic, but we also had to pretty much destroy the foundation of the previous team to acquire him and others.

Then there's also the facts that we missed the playoffs last season, are out of the playoffs currently in the worst division in the league by far, are 22nd league-wide, and he's made a plethora of other mistakes that overshadow his few good ones.

I mean, before Mason there was Bryzgalov. Before Bobrovsky there was Leighton.

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12-01-2013, 01:46 PM
  #263
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When does the blame get put onto the players for missing the playoffs/being out of playoffs now?

Homer went out and signed Lecavalier, who has been very valuable, picked up Hall from waivers, stole Mason from CBJ, and traded for Downie.

What more do you want him to do? I don't blame Homer for this team's woes. We have a hell of a talented, young team thanks to him. And they currently rolling. I suppose it's his fault G and Voracek aren't rolling like normal as well.

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12-01-2013, 05:17 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I know people want to give Holmgren a break for trading for Mason and finding Couturier, but Bobrovsky is just as talented as Mason whose career is just as uncertain as Mason's at the moment. Couturier is fantastic, but we also had to pretty much destroy the foundation of the previous team to acquire him
All they had to do to get him and Voarcek was trade Carter.

I'd make that trade 100 times out of 100.

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12-01-2013, 06:10 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
When does the blame get put onto the players for missing the playoffs/being out of playoffs now?

Homer went out and signed Lecavalier, who has been very valuable, picked up Hall from waivers, stole Mason from CBJ, and traded for Downie.

What more do you want him to do? I don't blame Homer for this team's woes. We have a hell of a talented, young team thanks to him. And they currently rolling. I suppose it's his fault G and Voracek aren't rolling like normal as well.

Please list the talented young defensemen we have, at generally modest costs.

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12-01-2013, 06:35 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I know people want to give Holmgren a break for trading for Mason and finding Couturier, but Bobrovsky is just as talented as Mason whose career is just as uncertain as Mason's at the moment.
And Homer got a second and a third for Bob and only gave up a third for Mason.
Decent, eh?


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Please list the talented young defensemen we have, at generally modest costs.
Please list the teams that can match what we have at forward in terms of youth, potential, skill, toughness.

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12-01-2013, 07:01 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
And Homer got a second and a third for Bob and only gave up a third for Mason.
Decent, eh?




Please list the teams that can match what we have at forward in terms of youth, potential, skill, toughness.

Edmonton. How's that working out without defensemen?

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12-01-2013, 07:34 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Please list the talented young defensemen we have, at generally modest costs.
I'm not going to answer your loaded question. Why don't you just say "we don't have cheap, young d-men"?

The forward group is ridiculous going forward. Acknowledge that at least.

Grossmann, Coburn, Schenn, Gustafsson are good pieces that are relatively young. Timonen and Streit are geezers. So what.

In general, the team is loaded with youth and talent.

Homer naysayers spend too much time worrying about the past rather than the present state of the team. Is the outlook of the team bright? I certainly think so. That's all that matters. But no, we should probably still hold a grudge over trading Upshall and a pick for Carcillo. We know how much that trade killed us, amiright?

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12-01-2013, 07:50 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I'm not going to answer your loaded question. Why don't you just say "we don't have cheap, young d-men"?

The forward group is ridiculous going forward. Acknowledge that at least.

Grossmann, Coburn, Schenn, Gustafsson are good pieces that are relatively young. Timonen and Streit are geezers. So what.

In general, the team is loaded with youth and talent.

Homer naysayers spend too much time worrying about the past rather than the present state of the team. Is the outlook of the team bright? I certainly think so. That's all that matters. But no, we should probably still hold a grudge over trading Upshall and a pick for Carcillo. We know how much that trade killed us, amiright?
We had a young, extremely promising team a few years back too. One that Holmgren had a large part in building. And then, he pretty much ruined it. Why should we be confident that he won't do it again?

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12-01-2013, 07:56 PM
  #270
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I don't really know where us being loaded with talent is coming from. We have Giroux, Couturier (who still is looking to reach an offensive impact), B. Schenn, and Mason (who is still needing to prove he's not a fluke). That's about it. Our NHL D isn't great by any means and doesn't have any young, special talent on it. Our prospect D has some good talent but considering that they will take plenty of time to develop and that none of them seem to be a likely number one type of guy it's not anything to rave over.

Our winger group is rather shoddy actually. Downie and Read are quality players, but Read has secondary offensive impact and Downie is a free agent so we'll have to see with him. Simmonds and Hartnell are a train wreck at the moment. That Lecavalier contract is risky to say the least as is the Streit one. Our forward group with prospects is actually pretty sad overall.

There's a lot of teams with much better youth cores then us and a lot of teams with much better established cores then us. The moment they traded Richards/Carter for some kind of pseudo rebuild/retool hybrid this team didn't really seem to have a focused direction.

It's not like I'm making this up either. We missed the playoffs last season and very well look like we might not make them this season either despite playing in the weakest division. As far as our impressive NHL youth goes we have Schenn and Couturier developing then Mason and Giroux in or near their primes. That's about it.

Holmgren isn't the worst around nor the best around, he's just kind of a middling GM that has had his shot at building a contender for a very long time now. He's also really lucky that there were compliance buyouts for Briere and Bryzgalov after the new CBA.

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12-01-2013, 08:00 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
All they had to do to get him and Voarcek was trade Carter.

I'd make that trade 100 times out of 100.
Kind of missing the point here and I'm not looking to get into a debate about Carter or Richards. The point is that for every good thing Holmgren has done he has at least one other bad move to go with it.

Ending up with Couturier and Voracek for Carter isn't bad value at all, but it also dismantled the team's core and sent them in a weird direction where they weren't as ready to compete when coupled with the Richards trade.

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Please list the teams that can match what we have at forward in terms of youth, potential, skill, toughness.
Colorado, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Chicago, San Jose, etc. I could go on really.

We're currently 28th in goals scored and last season we were 20th. It shouldn't be that hard to find teams with better forward groups no matter how you look at it. I really don't get where this concept of us being loaded with talent is coming from.

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12-01-2013, 08:54 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I'm not going to answer your loaded question. Why don't you just say "we don't have cheap, young d-men"?

The forward group is ridiculous going forward. Acknowledge that at least.

Grossmann, Coburn, Schenn, Gustafsson are good pieces that are relatively young. Timonen and Streit are geezers. So what.

In general, the team is loaded with youth and talent.

Homer naysayers spend too much time worrying about the past rather than the present state of the team. Is the outlook of the team bright? I certainly think so. That's all that matters. But no, we should probably still hold a grudge over trading Upshall and a pick for Carcillo. We know how much that trade killed us, amiright?
If you're going to insist that it's too loaded of a question to answer, you're in the wrong kinds of threads.

Edmonton has a talented group of young forwards. Fact.
Edmonton is a disaster of an organization. Fact.

I do not dispute the talent and potential of the forward. I'm not the one in these GDT's and Facebook threads claiming that Simmonds has to be traded, Brayden Schenn is a bust, and Couturier is overrated (but at that, he has underachieved offensively). And I didn't all those years the Wild and Kings topped the organizational rankings, either. But still, beyond that, the organization has not earned the right to assume the benefit of the doubt given their track record. Matt Read, who was an overaged, 25-year old UDFA, doesn't absolve umpteen years of our development process being a complete disaster.

Why don't we have any young defensemen? On the roster, today. That would come with modest prices. Doesn't even need that qualifier unless we're talking about the first handful picks of the draft. I don't think it's too much to ask to draft and develop ONE in TWENTY years. There are Flyers fans who have had their first legal drink before being alive when the Flyers acquired their most recent system-developed long-term defensemen. That is not acceptable in any form of reasoning. Gus doesn't count. He can't stay in the lineup, right or wrong. I've been through that in another thread. And when Gus does play, someone else is making way too much money to not be. If you don't have defensemen, you DON'T win championships. Period. Even the Penguins. This is also something that is in-bounds to be pissed off about for the organization that 'does everything they can to win.'

Coburn and Grossmann will turn 28 and 29 respectively this season. They are not young. They are not top-tier defensemen. Luke Schenn is still relatively young, but doesn't come close to fulfilling the needs of the type of defensemen we're looking for. Like Coburn and Grossmann, Schenn is what he is at this point.

As I said, Gus can't stay in the lineup. I like Gus, but given this team's track record, they don't get the benefit of the doubt until he plays at a level where they can't and shouldn't scratch him.

The Carcillo trade is in-bounds to be criticized. I won't do it now, but everyone here knows that it doesn't take much to go off on a tangent, and rightfully so.

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12-01-2013, 08:54 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I don't really know where us being loaded with talent is coming from. We have Giroux, Couturier (who still is looking to reach an offensive impact), B. Schenn, and Mason (who is still needing to prove he's not a fluke). That's about it. Our NHL D isn't great by any means and doesn't have any young, special talent on it. Our prospect D has some good talent but considering that they will take plenty of time to develop and that none of them seem to be a likely number one type of guy it's not anything to rave over.

Our winger group is rather shoddy actually. Downie and Read are quality players, but Read has secondary offensive impact and Downie is a free agent so we'll have to see with him. Simmonds and Hartnell are a train wreck at the moment. That Lecavalier contract is risky to say the least as is the Streit one. Our forward group with prospects is actually pretty sad overall.

There's a lot of teams with much better youth cores then us and a lot of teams with much better established cores then us. The moment they traded Richards/Carter for some kind of pseudo rebuild/retool hybrid this team didn't really seem to have a focused direction.

It's not like I'm making this up either. We missed the playoffs last season and very well look like we might not make them this season either despite playing in the weakest division. As far as our impressive NHL youth goes we have Schenn and Couturier developing then Mason and Giroux in or near their primes. That's about it.

Holmgren isn't the worst around nor the best around, he's just kind of a middling GM that has had his shot at building a contender for a very long time now. He's also really lucky that there were compliance buyouts for Briere and Bryzgalov after the new CBA.
Too much here that I think is wrong. I'll write back to it tomorrow if someone doesn't already.

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12-01-2013, 08:56 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
If you're going to insist that it's too loaded of a question to answer, you're in the wrong kinds of threads.

Edmonton has a talented group of young forwards. Fact.
Edmonton is a disaster of an organization. Fact.

I do not dispute the talent and potential of the forward. I'm not the one in these GDT's and Facebook threads claiming that Simmonds has to be traded, Brayden Schenn is a bust, and Couturier is overrated (but at that, he has underachieved offensively). And I didn't all those years the Wild and Kings topped the organizational rankings, either. But still, beyond that, the organization has not earned the right to assume the benefit of the doubt given their track record. Matt Read doesn't absolve umpteen years of our development process being a complete disaster.

Why don't we have any young defensemen? That would come with modest prices. Doesn't even need that qualifier unless we're talking about the first handful picks of the draft. I don't think it's too much to ask to draft and develop ONE in TWENTY years. There are Flyers fans who have had their first legal drink before being alive when the Flyers acquired their most recent system-developed long-term defensemen. That is not acceptable in any form of reasoning. Gus doesn't count. He can't stay in the lineup, right or wrong. I've been through that in another thread. And when Gus does play, someone else is making way too much money to not be. If you don't have defensemen, you DON'T win championships. Period. Even the Penguins. This is also something that is in-bounds to be pissed off about for the organization that 'does everything they can to win.'

Coburn and Grossmann will turn 28 and 29 respectively this season. They are not young. They are not top-tier defensemen. Luke Schenn is still relatively young, but doesn't come close to fulfilling the needs of the type of defensemen we're looking for.

As I said, Gus can't stay in the lineup. I like Gus, but given this team's track record, they don't get the benefit of the doubt until he plays at a level where they can't and shouldn't scratch him.

The Carcillo trade is in-bounds to be criticized. I won't do it now, but everyone here knows that it doesn't take much to go off on a tangent, and rightfully so.
I'll counter tomorrow. Don't feel like typing on iPad. I will leave it at: I disagree with some of this content.

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12-02-2013, 02:37 AM
  #275
dookie88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Edmonton. How's that working out without defensemen?
Exactly my point.
Teams have strength and weaknesses.
Our strength is depth, quality and youth at forward. Our weakness is D.
People here make it sound like the Flyers are the only team with a weak, but all those other teams have amazing D and just casually can match what we have at O.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I don't really know where us being loaded with talent is coming from. We have Giroux, Couturier (who still is looking to reach an offensive impact), B. Schenn, and Mason (who is still needing to prove he's not a fluke). That's about it.
Voracek, Simmonds, Downie.
You basically left out three top6 guys who can play for the next 7-8 years just to make a point.
Congrats!

Oh and yeah: they are top6 guys. Look around what kind of fowards or top180 in the league. Those guys are amongst them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Our NHL D isn't great by any means and doesn't have any young, special talent on it. Our prospect D has some good talent but considering that they will take plenty of time to develop and that none of them seem to be a likely number one type of guy it's not anything to rave over.
That's probably fair.
But guys like Coburn and Schenn can still improve. (Defenders hit their prime around 28 and it usually lasts till 32 imo)

Just a side not: you make it sound like you want young talent just for the sake of having young talent. Leaving Timonen and Streit out, all of our D could play for the next 6-7 years.
Also our strength at forward will eventually be used to get a defender we need. (#1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Our winger group is rather shoddy actually. Downie and Read are quality players, but Read has secondary offensive impact and Downie is a free agent so we'll have to see with him. Simmonds and Hartnell are a train wreck at the moment. That Lecavalier contract is risky to say the least as is the Streit one. Our forward group with prospects is actually pretty sad overall.
Our winger group is not shoddy.
Simmonds and Hartnell are a train wreck right now, but history would suggest they can turn it around and still be solid players, while providing physicality. Again, I look around the league and I don't see a whole lot of teams who have even one guy like those two who can score 20-30 goals, be physical and fight. Simmonds btw is 25. Another guy who could play for the next 8 years or more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
It's not like I'm making this up either. We missed the playoffs last season and very well look like we might not make them this season either despite playing in the weakest division. As far as our impressive NHL youth goes we have Schenn and Couturier developing then Mason and Giroux in or near their primes. That's about it.
Mason is 25. 25 is not prime for a goaltender.
Most goaltenders don't even have 2 full seasons under their belt at that age.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Colorado, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Chicago, San Jose, etc. I could go on really.

We're currently 28th in goals scored and last season we were 20th. It shouldn't be that hard to find teams with better forward groups no matter how you look at it. I really don't get where this concept of us being loaded with talent is coming from.
I was talking about forward groups with the same kind of skill, youth, toughness, etc. The point in my question, btw, was to point out that pretty much every team who can much as up front has just as much problem as us defensively.

Colorado - probably better forwards, a lot worse D. They also never made the playoffs in the last 263 years.

Edmonton - overrated forwards and soft as butter, a lot worse D. Also never made the playoffs since 2006 and had pretty much every first overall since then.

Pittsburgh - hm k.

Chicago - hm k.

San Jose - much older. Pretty much the same at D, although they have more guys ready or nearly ready than we do. We have more potential in the pipeline.

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