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Old
01-02-2007, 02:29 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by jaisen73 View Post
If Budaj exceeds expectations -- i.e., he becomes the clear cut #1 in the regular season AND secures them a playoff spot -- then I am confident the Avs will buy out Theo this summer. Budaj is under contract for two more seasons and if he shows he is a #1 goaltender then you don't keep 5 million on your roster for a back-up. You try to shop him at the draft (fat chance) and if that doesn't work you write him a check and take the 2/3 cap hit. It still frees up somewhere around 2 million.
It would free up about $4 million next season, but there would still be a $2 million cap hit the following season when they otherwise could have let Theo walk as a FA. It does seem to me that it would be worth it... freeing up the $4 million could fetch a real good player while the $2 million wouldn't be all that crippling.

I don't really agree that Avs management wouldn't do it to avoid admitting a mistake. They traded Drury for Morris, then traded Morris as well as the organization's top defensive prospect for Gratton and Vaananen. Wasn't that an acknowledgement that Morris wasn't the player they thought they acquired?

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01-02-2007, 02:58 PM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkboy View Post
It would free up about $4 million next season, but there would still be a $2 million cap hit the following season when they otherwise could have let Theo walk as a FA. It does seem to me that it would be worth it... freeing up the $4 million could fetch a real good player while the $2 million wouldn't be all that crippling.

I don't really agree that Avs management wouldn't do it to avoid admitting a mistake. They traded Drury for Morris, then traded Morris as well as the organization's top defensive prospect for Gratton and Vaananen. Wasn't that an acknowledgement that Morris wasn't the player they thought they acquired?
I'll see this for the thousandth time. I think the Avs organization was very happy with the initial acquisition of Derek Morris. He was physical, could score and was a very good skater. Unfortunately he sustained an injury that really destroyed his confidence, made him a very cuatious player. The eye injury took away his mean streak and caused him to play a style that he did not know how to play.

The Avs really got screwed over on that one, so it wasn't so much the Avs admitting a mistake as it is them trying to fix a problem due to injury.

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01-02-2007, 03:00 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkboy View Post
It would free up about $4 million next season, but there would still be a $2 million cap hit the following season when they otherwise could have let Theo walk as a FA. It does seem to me that it would be worth it... freeing up the $4 million could fetch a real good player while the $2 million wouldn't be all that crippling.

I don't really agree that Avs management wouldn't do it to avoid admitting a mistake. They traded Drury for Morris, then traded Morris as well as the organization's top defensive prospect for Gratton and Vaananen. Wasn't that an acknowledgement that Morris wasn't the player they thought they acquired?
Or it could have more to do with PL's man crush on Gratton; though they did decide to buy him out which I found curious.

Yet, Morris' injury and the emergence of Liles led to Derek being shipped out.

Theodore is a whole different animal because of his salary. The Avs are fortunate that the other mistakes will no longer be on the roster next season.

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01-02-2007, 03:36 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by darkboy View Post
It would free up about $4 million next season, but there would still be a $2 million cap hit the following season when they otherwise could have let Theo walk as a FA.
Is there a 30-second reminder/crash-course on the math behind this? Sorry, I don't remember how the cap hit from a buyout works, but if it's really quick and easy to explain how the above numbers are derived from Theo's 5.33M/year cap hit, can someone post it without going through any (much) trouble?

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01-02-2007, 03:45 PM
  #230
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I especially like this quote from Bruno (on the Avs' inconsistency):

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...250986,00.html

Quote:
"It would just be nice to bottle that (solid play) up and take it," Brunette said. "It's kind of been a constant theme. You harp on it and harp on it. I guess we have thick skulls."

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01-02-2007, 03:53 PM
  #231
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I believe it's on page 206 of the CBA (as to how to calculate a buyout), but the cap hits would be 1.3 and 2.0 for 07-08 and 08-09 respectively.

I can provide more details when I get on my home computer.

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01-02-2007, 05:29 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Jori View Post
Theodore is a whole different animal because of his salary. The Avs are fortunate that the other mistakes will no longer be on the roster next season.
I hope that turns out to be true!!! But with this organization, and their man-crush on Breezy...

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01-02-2007, 05:56 PM
  #233
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Buyout Savings is the Original SPC Amt minus the split buyout amount. Amount Inluded in Averaged Club Salary is the Original Averaged Amount minus the Buyout "Savings."
Attached Files
File Type: doc Jose Theodore Buyout Scenario.doc‎ (33.5 KB, 18 views)

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01-02-2007, 08:25 PM
  #234
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Maybe the Morris example isn't a good one, but if things continue the way they are with Theo, the egg is already all over management's face. I mean, the coach doesn't like him, apparently the players don't trust him. It's not like they have much options in terms of admitting it's a mistake. It's just a matter of leaving the egg on their face or wiping it off. Is there an example of blatantly refusing to admit a mistake when it comes to personnel moves? Sure, they dance around things a lot when it came to Forsberg and Foote leaving and bringing in Brisebois and Turgeon. They didn't buy out Brisebois, though they claim that wouldn't have given them cap relief (not sure if that is true or not). There was the bonus mess, but they can't make a roster move that can correct that. What are the other big mistakes Lacroix has made in the past that he refused to correct via a personnel move, that could lead one to believe there is no way they would buy out Theodore?

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01-02-2007, 11:56 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkboy View Post
Maybe the Morris example isn't a good one, but if things continue the way they are with Theo, the egg is already all over management's face. I mean, the coach doesn't like him, apparently the players don't trust him. It's not like they have much options in terms of admitting it's a mistake. It's just a matter of leaving the egg on their face or wiping it off. Is there an example of blatantly refusing to admit a mistake when it comes to personnel moves? Sure, they dance around things a lot when it came to Forsberg and Foote leaving and bringing in Brisebois and Turgeon. They didn't buy out Brisebois, though they claim that wouldn't have given them cap relief (not sure if that is true or not). There was the bonus mess, but they can't make a roster move that can correct that. What are the other big mistakes Lacroix has made in the past that he refused to correct via a personnel move, that could lead one to believe there is no way they would buy out Theodore?

Brisebois was a mistake clearly, but I dont think they should have bought him out this year. I think it is better to take their lumps this season and get completely out from under the contract next year. Buying him out would not save enough money to bring in a MUCH better defenseman, and I would rather have the money the next year. (We would have taken a cap hit this year and next)

Do you really think the signing of Turgeon was a mistake? Yeah he has not put up big numbers, but I think he has helped our younger players tremendously. Last year he was the reason for Merek's big year and this year he is helping Paul. (IMO) We are not paying him that much money and I think if he wants; we should keep him next year too. At a reduced price of course.

We should buy out Theo however because that would save us 4 mill next year. We could get a 3-mill goalie and use the rest of the cap room to get defensemen. IMO if all of that happens we have the possibility of being a Cup contender next year.

Maybe that is just wishful thinking.

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01-03-2007, 12:05 AM
  #236
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Do you really think the signing of Turgeon was a mistake?
Nope...I didn't when it happened, and I still don't think so.

His cap hit isn't as astronomical as some other people's on other teams...and actually, much to our surprise, last year (before his injury) he was actually playing quite well.

And this year, after coming back from his injury, he has still played quite well, and even showing flashes of good speed as well.

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01-03-2007, 01:31 AM
  #237
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Do you really think the signing of Turgeon was a mistake?
No, I didn't mean to suggest that. I'm trying to understand this perception that the Lacroix would never sign off on buying out Theo because he'd never admit a mistake, so I mentioned Turgeon in the context of the way the Avs handled the public relations aspect of letting go of Forsberg and Foote and bringing in Brisebois and Turgeon. I'm not sure if it's things like that that color the perception.

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01-03-2007, 07:27 AM
  #238
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Buying out Briesbois would NOT have saved the Avs any money. That's true. He would have counted against the cap regardless...because he signed his contract after turning 35. Thems the rules

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01-03-2007, 09:03 AM
  #239
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I don't think any other situation would compare to Theodore because of his salary and perceived star status. The Grattons and Battaglias of the world are small potatoes compared to Theodore. The Morris departure doesn't look so bad because of the emergence of Liles. As much as Budaj is liked, few see him as the long term solution in net for the Avalanche. If there was a superior alternative present, buying out Theodore wouldn't look so bad on the organization and in particular Lacroix.

Theodore not working out in Colorado is clearly a blow to Lacroix's legacy in the eyes of some people because it was Pierre's last "big move." Because in some way he thought this would be Patrick Roy part II. Lacroix is a very proud man. If he were completely disconnected from the organization, I could see a buyout scenario. Yet imagine the egg on PL's face? I can see this organization being stubborn enough to hold onto Theodore just to save face.

Don't get me wrong...I hope I turn out to be completely wrong and the Avs consider all options. It's just something in my gut that tells me Theodore will be around through next season.

The best example I can come up with is Brisebois. Buying him out is useless and his trade value is low. Yet, why not take action like Philadelphia and Pittsburgh have done, with other players, by waving him and hoping someone may pick him up on reentry waivers?

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01-03-2007, 09:45 AM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkboy View Post
No, I didn't mean to suggest that. I'm trying to understand this perception that the Lacroix would never sign off on buying out Theo because he'd never admit a mistake, so I mentioned Turgeon in the context of the way the Avs handled the public relations aspect of letting go of Forsberg and Foote and bringing in Brisebois and Turgeon. I'm not sure if it's things like that that color the perception.
Ok, sorry about that.

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01-03-2007, 12:14 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by chiavsfan View Post
Buying out Briesbois would NOT have saved the Avs any money. That's true. He would have counted against the cap regardless...because he signed his contract after turning 35. Thems the rules
Nope, he signed his contract when he was 34. (Born January 1971, signed with the Avs August 2005). Thus the question whether what Giguere said about buying out Brisebois was accurate.

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01-03-2007, 12:26 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Jori View Post
I don't think any other situation would compare to Theodore because of his salary and perceived star status. The Grattons and Battaglias of the world are small potatoes compared to Theodore. The Morris departure doesn't look so bad because of the emergence of Liles. As much as Budaj is liked, few see him as the long term solution in net for the Avalanche. If there was a superior alternative present, buying out Theodore wouldn't look so bad on the organization and in particular Lacroix.

Theodore not working out in Colorado is clearly a blow to Lacroix's legacy in the eyes of some people because it was Pierre's last "big move." Because in some way he thought this would be Patrick Roy part II. Lacroix is a very proud man. If he were completely disconnected from the organization, I could see a buyout scenario. Yet imagine the egg on PL's face? I can see this organization being stubborn enough to hold onto Theodore just to save face.

Don't get me wrong...I hope I turn out to be completely wrong and the Avs consider all options. It's just something in my gut that tells me Theodore will be around through next season.

The best example I can come up with is Brisebois. Buying him out is useless and his trade value is low. Yet, why not take action like Philadelphia and Pittsburgh have done, with other players, by waving him and hoping someone may pick him up on reentry waivers?
I agree Lacroix is proud, but the Theo situation is also unique in that there appear to be many people within the organazition besides Lacroix who are ready to write him off. The coach, for one. I've heard rumors that the players don't have confidence in him. Who knows what Giguere thinks. When it comes to Brisebois, it seems Q inexplicably likes him quite a bit, given the way he plays him in key situations.

I'm sure Lacroix would like to give Theo every possible chance to prove he's worth keeping, but if he he's the last defender standing, I'm not sure he has a choice. The fact that Giguere is now the acting GM should play into it too.

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