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Byfuglien to Philly

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Old
12-02-2013, 11:19 AM
  #26
veganhunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
I would say you are completely wrong here....Dmen are totally responsible when goals are scored against their team while on the ice. Every coach and GM in the league looks at this stat.
That's like saying GAA stat isn't important when it comes to a goalie.
Your wrong and its not, SV% is the far and away more important.


Last edited by veganhunter: 12-02-2013 at 11:54 AM.
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12-02-2013, 11:21 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
I would say you are completely wrong here....Dmen are totally responsible when goals are scored against their team while on the ice. Every coach and GM in the league looks at this stat.
That's like saying GAA stat isn't important when it comes to a goalie.
GAA couldn't be a more irrelevant statistic to goaltending, similar to judging a pitcher by his win count.

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12-02-2013, 11:22 AM
  #28
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Your wrong and its not, SV% is the fair and away more important.
Are these Jets fans or Leafs fans that I'm debating with? feels very similar.
All the stats are important otherwise they wouldn't be reported at all...let it go.

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Old
12-02-2013, 11:24 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Are these Jets fans or Leafs fans that I'm debating with? feels very similar.
All the stats are important otherwise they wouldn't be reported at all...let it go.
Just knowledgeable hockey fans, didn't know anyone valued GAA.

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12-02-2013, 11:25 AM
  #30
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Just knowledgeable hockey fans, didn't know anyone valued GAA.
Maybe not in Winterpeg.
+/- stat is important to a defenseman.

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12-02-2013, 11:26 AM
  #31
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Maybe not in Winterpeg
Or planet Earth.

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12-02-2013, 11:27 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
I would say you are completely wrong here....Dmen are totally responsible when goals are scored against their team while on the ice. Every coach and GM in the league looks at this stat.
That's like saying GAA stat isn't important when it comes to a goalie.
Hence Why Justin Braun is obviously the current front runner for the Norris /s

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Old
12-02-2013, 11:38 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Thesaurus View Post
Or planet Earth.
Because the NHL GM's only take SV% in account for awarding a Vezina...

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Old
12-02-2013, 11:44 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Because the NHL GM's only take SV% in account for awarding a Vezina...
It's like talking to a brick wall...

Go make a poll and see what statistic is valued more.

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12-02-2013, 11:45 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Because the NHL GM's only take SV% in account for awarding a Vezina...
Save percentage is judging how many pucks a goalie stops, which is the primary purpose of a goalie.

GAA is more heavily influenced by the team in front of the goalie, far more so than SP, which is why SP is more important.

This isn't even an argument, you're wrong. Fact.

On the other side, +/- for a defenseman can be influenced by goaltending or a bad play by another person, there are far more important stats to judge Byfuglien on.

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Old
12-02-2013, 11:47 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by EpicGingy View Post
Save percentage is judging how many pucks a goalie stops, which is the primary purpose of a goalie.

GAA is more heavily influenced by the team in front of the goalie, far more so than SP, which is why SP is more important.

This isn't even an argument, you're wrong. Fact.

On the other side, +/- for a defenseman can be influenced by goaltending or a bad play by another person, there are far more important stats to judge Byfuglien on.
But the NHL records those stats so they must be the soo important!

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Old
12-02-2013, 11:49 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by EpicGingy View Post
Save percentage is judging how many pucks a goalie stops, which is the primary purpose of a goalie.
GAA...correct me if I'm wrong isn't it the goalies job to keep pucks out of the net?
I agree the sv% is important but don't dismiss GAA and say it doesn't matter and nobody cares about it.

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12-02-2013, 11:51 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Thesaurus View Post
It's like talking to a brick wall...

Go make a poll and see what statistic is valued more.
It's been done before....
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/ar.../t-120189.html
You have totally proved my point as well...Wpg fans are exactly like Leafs fans...they're always right

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12-02-2013, 11:51 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
GAA...correct me if I'm wrong isn't it the goalies job to keep pucks out of the net?
I agree the sv% is important but don't dismiss GAA and say it doesn't matter and nobody cares about it.
The point is GAA is more of a team stat.

If I could choose between the Jets having a low GAA or high SP I obviously choose GAA because that means fewer pucks are going in, but if we're judging the skill of the goalie you should compare SP.

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12-02-2013, 11:53 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
GAA...correct me if I'm wrong isn't it the goalies job to keep pucks out of the net?
I agree the sv% is important but don't dismiss GAA and say it doesn't matter and nobody cares about it.
It's the truth. Save percentage completely trumps it.

Hypothetical situation. Say a goalie faces 1000 shots in a game and let's in 10 goals. He'll have a 10.00 GAA and a SVP of 99%.

Which is a more accurate statistic on the goalies performance?

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12-02-2013, 11:57 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Are these Jets fans or Leafs fans that I'm debating with? feels very similar.
All the stats are important otherwise they wouldn't be reported at all...let it go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Maybe not in Winterpeg.
+/- stat is important to a defenseman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Because the NHL GM's only take SV% in account for awarding a Vezina...
Has no idea what they are talking about, resorts to thinly veiled insults. Feels very similar as well...

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Old
12-02-2013, 12:06 PM
  #42
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Funny thing is GAA is basically

(save percentage x shots per 60 mins) ...right?

In more laymen terms, its SV% with team influences added in

I do agree that Buff's +/- 5v5 is relevant however. At the end of the day, if a guy is a #1 defenseman his team comes out ahead against anyone. Corsi is probably more accurate measurement of whether a guy is hurting vs helping his team, but its not the be all, end all either. Especially when it concerns a high risk, high reward player like Buff whose #1 criticism/weakness is mistakes that end up (not on net, but) in the back of the net. Improved goalie play would help Buff's case here, but Pavelec hasn't been awful numbers wise either.

Buff to me would be borderline best play controlling 2nd pair D (on a team that has a 1D to take on the other teams best. This would maximize Buff's strengths and help hide his weaknesses. Like Campbell when he was 2nd pair in CHI.

Trouble for Winnipeg is no one wants to give up potentially premier future assets (future 1C, top 5 pick, etc) for a guy who at the end of the day is still a complementary piece on a contending team making just over $5M. Not many can afford that luxury cap wise on the 2nd pair that are willing to pay trough the nose for said luxury.

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Old
12-02-2013, 12:14 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesaurus View Post
It's the truth. Save percentage completely trumps it.

Hypothetical situation. Say a goalie faces 1000 shots in a game and let's in 10 goals. He'll have a 10.00 GAA and a SVP of 99%.

Which is a more accurate statistic on the goalies performance?
I never said that SV% wasn't important I said that GAA was important as well to a goalie and shouldn't be overlooked as a stat. Both of you have totally missed the point of all this and have dismissed the fact that +/- means nothing when it comes to a player.
I can tell that when both of you are wrong you would never admit it so there's no point arguing about it any longer and this is going no where. It's like arguing with my 5yr old.

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12-02-2013, 12:15 PM
  #44
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B. Schenn + Coburn

Is who the Jets would likely be going after. Buff is 4th for D-men goals, 4th in pts, and 4th in TOI/gm. He's a very valuable piece.

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12-02-2013, 12:17 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
I never said that SV% wasn't important I said that GAA was important as well to a goalie and shouldn't be overlooked as a stat. Both of you have totally missed the point of all this and have dismissed the fact that +/- means nothing when it comes to a player.
I can tell that when both of you are wrong you would never admit it so there's no point arguing about it any longer and this is going no where. It's like arguing with my 5yr old.
GAA is not an important stat when evaluating individual performances by a goalie, SVP is.

Fact.

Also, if you lose an argument this easily with your 5 year old you'll rue the day you ever had kids when they're a teenager.

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12-02-2013, 12:20 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Thesaurus View Post
GAA is not an important stat when evaluating individual performances by a goalie, SVP is.

Fact.

Also, if you lose an argument this easily with your 5 year old you'll rue the day you ever had kids when they're a teenager.
Who said I lost this argument? You? and another biased Jets fan. I never said I lost an argument with my 5yr year old...the reference was ''it's like arguing with my 5yr old''
And you still missed and avoided the point.....again!


Last edited by FlyersFanz: 12-02-2013 at 12:27 PM.
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Old
12-02-2013, 12:27 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Who said I lost this argument? You? and another biased Jets fan. I never said I lost an argument with my 5yr year old...the reference was ''it's like arguing with my 5yr old''
And you still missed and avoided the point. I have seen a lot of your posts in HF and you argue with everybody wither you're right or wrong.
Because no point was made, GAA shouldn't even exist. Can just take the teams GAA and come up with a similar stat, SVP should be the only statistic in measuring a goalies ability. How many shots does he save relative to the amount of shots on net is a lot more important than how many goals go in every 60 minutes if you're purely judging a goaltender's ability.

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12-02-2013, 12:32 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
B. Schenn + Coburn

Is who the Jets would likely be going after. Buff is 4th for D-men goals, 4th in pts, and 4th in TOI/gm. He's a very valuable piece.
Coburn is the guy the Flyers would need to pair with Buff to cover for his defensive frailties.

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12-02-2013, 12:35 PM
  #49
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Coburn is the guy the Flyers would need to pair with Buff to cover for his defensive frailties.
Wrong. Common misconception that Byfuglien is some neanderthal in his own end, he's very capable and plays tough minutes. You need responsible forwards who cover a pinching defenseman well, Byfuglien is far from frail in his own end.

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12-02-2013, 12:45 PM
  #50
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You seem to be under the impression that because a player is on the ice for when a goal is scored that that player is automatically responsible for that goal. Just because Buff was on the ice for 27 GA (While playing more EV minutes mind you) does not mean that he was responsible for those goals that went in. Plus minus is a terrible stat, you should probably not ever use it.
At no time did I say that Buff was responsible for the goals against. I was simply showing that compared to his other teammates, goals happen more when he is on the ice. That is a fact.

Also, the fact that he has only been a plus player once in 9 years shows this as well. In reality, when the puck is in your end, DEFENSEMEN are supposed to defend. Well, he does not do it as well has his other teammates. That is a fact.

I am not saying he has little value, but I am saying that anyone trading for im does so knowing that he will probably be a minus player at ES and a beast on the PP.

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