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Byfuglien to Philly

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Old
12-02-2013, 12:47 PM
  #51
Curufinwe
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Originally Posted by Thesaurus View Post
Wrong. Common misconception that Byfuglien is some neanderthal in his own end, he's very capable and plays tough minutes. You need responsible forwards who cover a pinching defenseman well, Byfuglien is far from frail in his own end.
He plays tough minutes and is -8. To be a good fit in Philly (which has a top 6 full of irresponsible forwards) he would need a more defensive minded partner who can keep up with him skating wise, i.e. Coburn.

I think Byfuglien could be good here, but not at the cost of BSchenn and Coburn.


Last edited by Curufinwe: 12-02-2013 at 12:53 PM.
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Old
12-02-2013, 12:56 PM
  #52
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Jets fans want value equivalent to the caliber of player who signs the contract he did.

Flyers fans aren't willing to take on that kind of money for a player that comes with some notable red flags.


It's been brought up numerous times, I think that about sums it up.

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12-02-2013, 01:04 PM
  #53
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So +/- is totally irrelevant now??

So do you all think Bobby Orr's +124 season is seen as the same as Buff's -8 one then??

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12-02-2013, 01:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
So +/- is totally irrelevant now??

So do you all think Bobby Orr's +124 season is seen as the same as Buff's -8 one then??
Yes! Someone finally got the point...Thank You.

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12-02-2013, 01:09 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
So +/- is totally irrelevant now??

So do you all think Bobby Orr's +124 season is seen as the same as Buff's -8 one then??
No.

When looking at +/- more than any other stat - context is required.

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12-02-2013, 01:13 PM
  #56
Thesaurus
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
So +/- is totally irrelevant now??

So do you all think Bobby Orr's +124 season is seen as the same as Buff's -8 one then??
It's not that it's irrelevant, there's just other stats that more accurately show how a player is playing. +/- compared to advanced statistics is equivalent to me sending you a letter attached to a pigeon.

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12-02-2013, 01:21 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
So +/- is totally irrelevant now??

So do you all think Bobby Orr's +124 season is seen as the same as Buff's -8 one then??
Is Jeff Schultz's +50 season proof of him being more than a D-man on a really good team? Was that season a lot better than Lidström's -2 Norris Trophy season?

Is Toby Enström a crappy defensive player because he's a career minus player?

Or is +/- a crap statistic that means nothing without context, and not much more with context?

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12-02-2013, 01:24 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan47 View Post
Both Schenn's? NO

Voracek? NO

Are we thinking of the same lazy player here? A guy who's been a minus player basically his whole career? You have to be kidding me. You can have MAYBE Luke Schenn and a pick but IN NO WAY do you get Brayden and or Voracek. Thats just silly. If Holmgren ever traded Brayden Schenn or Voracek for Buf I'd never defend him again.
Either you want Buff or not. If you really think he is that bad, then why would you bring him and his cap hit to your team, even at a price like Luke Schenn and a pick?

Byfulgien seems like a great fit in Philly to me
Who's he pushing down on the depth chart? Timonen?

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12-02-2013, 01:28 PM
  #59
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I know people aren't going to agree, simply because this is a message board and that's how they work, but the one statement I have found to be irrefutably true about statistics is this:

The only statistics people find to be valid are those that support the conclusions they've already come to.

I personally don't want Buff because I don't feel he's the right defenseman to add to the Flyers' roster. Yes, part of it is that I'm concerned about the risk of unleashing him on the cheesesteak capital of the world. Part of it is that I generally prefer my defensemen to be defensemen first, unless they are once-in-a-generation exceptional, and Buff's more of an offensive defenseman. Part of it is that, if we're looking to acquire a defenseman from the Jets, I'd far rather have Enstrom, Bogosian, or Trouba, all of whom I think would be better fits in Philly.

However, that's not to say Buff's a terrible defenseman (or winger); he's just not what I'd want us expending assets to acquire.

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12-02-2013, 01:31 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilbert719 View Post
I know people aren't going to agree, simply because this is a message board and that's how they work, but the one statement I have found to be irrefutably true about statistics is this:

The only statistics people find to be valid are those that support the conclusions they've already come to.

I personally don't want Buff because I don't feel he's the right defenseman to add to the Flyers' roster. Yes, part of it is that I'm concerned about the risk of unleashing him on the cheesesteak capital of the world. Part of it is that I generally prefer my defensemen to be defensemen first, unless they are once-in-a-generation exceptional, and Buff's more of an offensive defenseman. Part of it is that, if we're looking to acquire a defenseman from the Jets, I'd far rather have Enstrom, Bogosian, or Trouba, all of whom I think would be better fits in Philly.

However, that's not to say Buff's a terrible defenseman (or winger); he's just not what I'd want us expending assets to acquire.
Completely understandable and valid points, other than the cheese steak dilemma.

Thanks for rationale approach to debating.

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12-02-2013, 01:37 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post
Is Jeff Schultz's +50 season proof of him being more than a D-man on a really good team? Was that season a lot better than Lidström's -2 Norris Trophy season?

Is Toby Enström a crappy defensive player because he's a career minus player?

Or is +/- a crap statistic that means nothing without context, and not much more with context?
And again...no one is saying that +/- is the most important stat. I used it IN COMPARISON TO HIS TEAMMATES when I originally brought it up. You would think that a player, like Buff who can control play for so much and spend lots of time in the offensive zone would also have an ok +/-

You bring up Lidstrom, then overlook the fact that it was his ONLY MINUS SEASON OF HIS CAREER. But I guess that means nothing as you suggest. +40...-40 doesn't make a difference.

If the +/- are similar...within 5 for example...it doesn't matter much. But when a guy is ALWAYS A MINUS PLAYER, I think then it does matter. Again...in context!

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Old
12-02-2013, 01:38 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilbert719 View Post
I know people aren't going to agree, simply because this is a message board and that's how they work, but the one statement I have found to be irrefutably true about statistics is this:

The only statistics people find to be valid are those that support the conclusions they've already come to.

I personally don't want Buff because I don't feel he's the right defenseman to add to the Flyers' roster. Yes, part of it is that I'm concerned about the risk of unleashing him on the cheesesteak capital of the world. Part of it is that I generally prefer my defensemen to be defensemen first, unless they are once-in-a-generation exceptional, and Buff's more of an offensive defenseman. Part of it is that, if we're looking to acquire a defenseman from the Jets, I'd far rather have Enstrom, Bogosian, or Trouba, all of whom I think would be better fits in Philly.

However, that's not to say Buff's a terrible defenseman (or winger); he's just not what I'd want us expending assets to acquire.
I think most people place very little value (including myself) on GAA or +/- regardless of the player being discussed. Have I framed advanced stats to support conclusions? Likely, but the lack of relevance of GAA and +/- are pretty universally agreed upon.

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Old
12-02-2013, 01:45 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by veganhunter View Post
I think most people place very little value (including myself) on GAA or +/- regardless of the player being discussed. Have I framed advanced stats to support conclusions? Likely, but the lack of relevance of GAA and +/- are pretty universally agreed upon.
Any statistic can be useful if applied correctly. There is no statistic that is the end-all-be-all that determines worth.

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12-02-2013, 01:50 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Thesaurus View Post
...
Regardless, two roster players for Byfuglien(one of them being a defenseman who is terrible whenever a Flyers fan mentions him outside a trade thread) is not a steep asking price at all for a #1 D who produces more than the forward in question offensively and out plays Luke Schenn with his eyes closed.
Of course Buff is better than L Schenn, but I'm not sure you've seen him play much this year. He was scratched for a few games, sure, but he's been very solid ever since.

I don't think both Schenns is an outrageous ask from Winnipeg, but I don't think the Flyers should or would do it either. Most Jets fans seem to be valuing Buff as a #1D. Most Flyers (and I think most other fans in general) see him as a 2-3 type with a superior offensive game and some significant risk defensively. Could the Flyers use him? Of course. Is he worth what it would take in assets, considering his cap hit as well, I'm not convinced.

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12-02-2013, 01:56 PM
  #65
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Buff is a level down from Doughty, Suter, Weber, OEL, Pietrangleo, etc. If he was as good as those guys Winnipeg would not even consider trading him.

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12-02-2013, 01:58 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Buff is a level down from Doughty, Suter, Weber, OEL, Pietrangleo, etc. If he was as good as those guys Winnipeg would not even consider trading him.
Or we want to maximize his value because we're stacked at RHD.

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12-02-2013, 02:00 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Buff is a level down from Doughty, Suter, Weber, OEL, Pietrangleo, etc. If he was as good as those guys Winnipeg would not even consider trading him.
Just because he's not a top 5 Dman does not mean he's not a top 25 Dman with a ton of value.

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12-02-2013, 02:00 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
If he was as good as those guys Winnipeg would not even consider trading him.
That's kinda what I said earlier in this thread, don't get me wrong I like Byfuglien but not at the expense of 2 young roster players(Schenn's) with one of them having a pretty good year so far and the other starting to show signs of better defensive play.

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12-02-2013, 02:02 PM
  #69
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Buff is a level down from Doughty, Suter, Weber, OEL, Pietrangleo, etc. If he was as good as those guys Winnipeg would not even consider trading him.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

On the other hand, if he was that caliber, he couldn't plausibly be had for the Schenns or Voracek either.

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12-02-2013, 02:06 PM
  #70
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And again...no one is saying that +/- is the most important stat. I used it IN COMPARISON TO HIS TEAMMATES when I originally brought it up. You would think that a player, like Buff who can control play for so much and spend lots of time in the offensive zone would also have an ok +/-

You bring up Lidstrom, then overlook the fact that it was his ONLY MINUS SEASON OF HIS CAREER. But I guess that means nothing as you suggest. +40...-40 doesn't make a difference.

If the +/- are similar...within 5 for example...it doesn't matter much. But when a guy is ALWAYS A MINUS PLAYER, I think then it does matter. Again...in context!
Hence why I brought up Enström? He's a career minus player, which would point to him being a consistent minus (or very low +) player.

+/- when compared between teammates isn't as bad, but it's still pretty much crap. Why do you think so many people has started to pretty much ignore it and look more to Corsi and similar stats?

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12-02-2013, 02:06 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

On the other hand, if he was that caliber, he couldn't plausibly be had for the Schenns or Voracek either.
Of course not, you could never trade two young roster players.

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12-02-2013, 02:06 PM
  #72
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To fully understand the Jets situation, take a look at our D depth:

LHDRHD
EnstromByfuglien
ClitsomeBogosian
StuartTrouba
EllerbyPostma
PardyRedmond

We also have Kichton down at the farm. We probably have the best RHD depth in the league, and other than Redmond they're all good offensively. For LHD we have Kulda who is pure shutdown and in the KHL, and Morrissey who is a few years away. If Enstrom gets injured, Clitsome is our #1 and he's not playing well this year. He's more of a #5 with PP ability. Stuart/Ellerby/Pardy are all #6 or worse.

Buff only plays left side in offensive situations, and neither Trouba or Bogosian seem comfortable there. So that's why we want to strike the iron while it's hot, move Buff for a big mean shutdown LHD+, and it will bring balance to the force. If we had another top 4 LHD, Buff would NOT BE AVAILABLE!

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12-02-2013, 02:10 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

On the other hand, if he was that caliber, he couldn't plausibly be had for the Schenns or Voracek either.
That's what I was going to post.

Jets fans for the most part don't put Buff with those guys. If one of those guys get traded it's going to be for more than what most Jets fans are looking for for Buff.

It's when people make claims that Buff is some leper, and don't want him anywhere near their team because he's some sort of fat useless player, when everything out there says the opposite where threads usually go off the rails. IMO of course.

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12-02-2013, 02:12 PM
  #74
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It's when people make claims that Buff is some leper, and don't want him anywhere near their team because he's some sort of fat useless player, when everything out there says the opposite where threads usually go off the rails. IMO of course.
Nobody here has claimed Buff to be that...just that Buff is a little risky defensively.

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12-02-2013, 02:12 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
If we had another top 4 LHD, Buff would NOT BE AVAILABLE!
Or more top 6 forward talent. Because a potential Buff trade does not solely need to be about getting a LHD.

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