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Mon., Dec. 2, 2013| Flyers 0 at Wild 2

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Old
12-03-2013, 11:03 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Hopefully restructure the team from the back end out. It will require moving forward talent for defense creating holes upfront, but the flyers aren't competing for a cup anyway if they continue to be noncompetitive against any solid defensive team.
The problem with that is that it will probably take a long time. In which case you might as well move Giroux.

There are three aspects (Off/Def/Goal) to a team and to build a championship caliber group you need to be very good at 2 things and no less than average at the third. Right now we're very good at 1 and average at best at the other 2.

If Mason is the real deal than there isn't much to do to the team as it is except fixing the mix of players up front, and some D improvements. They're going to need some kind of trade, or maybe a FA signing, but the current group isn't going to get it done. However, I think the core of the team can. A lot of that though depends on Schenn and Voracek becoming legit top 6/top line players.

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12-03-2013, 11:07 AM
  #127
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Why would they restructure the team from the back end out when they've spent the last two drafts loading up on defensive prospects? I get it that defensemen take longer to hit their primes when compared to forwards, but why do all that? It would create a huge log jam in 2-3 years when guys like Morin or Ghost are ready to contribute at the NHL level. This teams needs a sniper or two in the worst way. That's the glaring issue. Not Grossmann. Not Coburn. Not Schenn, etc.
I think a great defenseman would help more than a great sniper right now.

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12-03-2013, 11:15 AM
  #128
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I think a great defenseman would help more than a great sniper right now.
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind that considering the performances of both units. Obviously a great defenseman would help with some of the offense, but their best goal scorer is Matt Read. Matt's fantastic, but that's a sad indictment of the group as a whole. They need a serious injection of talent up front, or they'll continue to waste the franchise's best player since Eric Lindros.

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12-03-2013, 11:36 AM
  #129
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The game was so boring to watch. Almost fell asleep.

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Old
12-03-2013, 11:49 AM
  #130
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Even an inconsistent JVR would be far and away our best winger.
That was exactly what I was thinking after I went to sleep after the second period, and fell asleep a few times in the first. From what I witnessed I thought Emery was our best player, and then Coots also thought Mez was decent.

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12-03-2013, 12:22 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind that considering the performances of both units. Obviously a great defenseman would help with some of the offense, but their best goal scorer is Matt Read. Matt's fantastic, but that's a sad indictment of the group as a whole. They need a serious injection of talent up front, or they'll continue to waste the franchise's best player since Eric Lindros.
Quote:
1. Breakouts are often laborious.The Flyers are plagued by errant passing, especially from defensemen to forwards
If we had Suter back there playing 29 minutes a night and setting up our forwards with great outlet passes that would do more to help the offense than replacing Hartnell with any sniper in the league.

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12-03-2013, 12:27 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Why would they restructure the team from the back end out when they've spent the last two drafts loading up on defensive prospects? I get it that defensemen take longer to hit their primes when compared to forwards, but why do all that? It would create a huge log jam in 2-3 years when guys like Morin or Ghost are ready to contribute at the NHL level. This teams needs a sniper or two in the worst way. That's the glaring issue. Not Grossmann. Not Coburn. Not Schenn, etc.
This team cannot transition out of its own zone. If the defense can't get the puck out fast and with tape to tape passes, they get hemmed in. This creates scoring chances for the opposing team plus tires out the offensive forwards. Plus the longer it takes to get the puck up the ice, the more time the opposing team has to set its defense and clog the neutral zone. This destroys any speed the forwards have up the ice killing their ability to forecheck. Grossmann and L. Schenn as well as Mezz and to a lesser extent Coburn are a problem because they can't transition the puck up the ice with any speed. Having forwards comeback does help but also kills the speed the team has up the ice to gets into the forechecking. I don't care what kind of sniper you add, if he doesn't have a clear shot on the goal because the entire defense got back or time to shoot, it won't matter.

Secondly, who among the current defense core is any threat to score from the point? Streit and Timonen don't exactly have bombs from the point. Timonen actual tries to miss more for deflections at the side of the net then get the shot on net. The other four defensemen are terrible. The opposing defenses have zero respect for the Flyers blueline shooters and collapses as a five man unit below the circles. Good luck wining board battles on the half wall or behind the net or getting to rebounds. If you have a defenseman that is a threat to score or beat a man one on one at the top of the zone, it can create chaos in coverage and odd man situations below.

The flyers have a nice stable of defense prospects but none of them are ready to contribute soon, except maybe Alt. It takes defensemen multiple years at the NHL level to really have an impact. By getting young NHL defensemen or NHL ready prospect in the AHL, the Flyers get a head start on that NHL development time. It actually saves some of Giroux's prime. Even if the flyers sign a Phanuef or Markov in the offseason, they will need cheap talent to fill out the back end since those guys would cost 6-8 mil a year. The flyers also shouldnt assume the prospects they have will be great. If there is a logjam, it a good situation to have.

I don't see how moving one or two of B. Schenn, Simmonds, or even Voracek would hurt this team long term. Forwards develop faster not only post draft but also at the NHL level. Laughton and Leier will be out of juniors next year and the Flyers have had a much better track record drafting forwards than defensemen. So hypothetically speaking, Flyers move Voracek and B. Schenn and replace them with Laughton and Cousins or even Leon Draisaitl if and the when the flyers fall in the standings. Top line is Hartnell (unmovable) Giroux Lecavalier with Read Laughton and Simmonds on the 2nd. Cousin Couturier and a resigned Downie on the 3rd. Is that lineup much worst then this year? Isn't adding a more mobile puck moving defense worth the downgrade?

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12-03-2013, 12:43 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
This team cannot transition out of its own zone. If the defense can't get the puck out fast and with tape to tape passes, they get hemmed in. This creates scoring chances for the opposing team plus tires out the offensive forwards. Plus the longer it takes to get the puck up the ice, the more time the opposing team has to set its defense and clog the neutral zone. This destroys any speed the forwards have up the ice killing their ability to forecheck. Grossmann and L. Schenn as well as Mezz and to a lesser extent Coburn are a problem because they can't transition the puck up the ice with any speed. Having forwards comeback does help but also kills the speed the team has up the ice to gets into the forechecking. I don't care what kind of sniper you add, if he doesn't have a clear shot on the goal because the entire defense got back or time to shoot, it won't matter.

Secondly, who among the current defense core is any threat to score from the point? Streit and Timonen don't exactly have bombs from the point. Timonen actual tries to miss more for deflections at the side of the net then get the shot on net. The other four defensemen are terrible. The opposing defenses have zero respect for the Flyers blueline shooters and collapses as a five man unit below the circles. Good luck wining board battles on the half wall or behind the net or getting to rebounds. If you have a defenseman that is a threat to score or beat a man one on one at the top of the zone, it can create chaos in coverage and odd man situations below.

The flyers have a nice stable of defense prospects but none of them are ready to contribute soon, except maybe Alt. It takes defensemen multiple years at the NHL level to really have an impact. By getting young NHL defensemen or NHL ready prospect in the AHL, the Flyers get a head start on that NHL development time. It actually saves some of Giroux's prime. Even if the flyers sign a Phanuef or Markov in the offseason, they will need cheap talent to fill out the back end since those guys would cost 6-8 mil a year. The flyers also shouldnt assume the prospects they have will be great. If there is a logjam, it a good situation to have.

I don't see how moving one or two of B. Schenn, Simmonds, or even Voracek would hurt this team long term. Forwards develop faster not only post draft but also at the NHL level. Laughton and Leier will be out of juniors next year and the Flyers have had a much better track record drafting forwards than defensemen. So hypothetically speaking, Flyers move Voracek and B. Schenn and replace them with Laughton and Cousins or even Leon Draisaitl if and the when the flyers fall in the standings. Top line is Hartnell (unmovable) Giroux Lecavalier with Read Laughton and Simmonds on the 2nd. Cousin Couturier and a resigned Downie on the 3rd. Is that lineup much worst then this year? Isn't adding a more mobile puck moving defense worth the downgrade?
I think you make a lot of good points. A lot of the problems stem from the backend not being able to keep hard forechecking teams honest. Streit and Timonen are the only ones with a modicum of breakout capability and with Timonen he has taken a big downturn this year. There is no point threat other than those two as well. Mesz has a scud missile of a shot.....hard but innacurate. Sucks at all else. Coburn can skate for a big man and is a solid stay at home guy but don't expect points from him. Schenn is limited and stay at home..same with Grossmann who is good with positioning and shot blocking but has limited skating and offensive capability. Gus ...still waiting for him to breakout and be more of a threat offensively.

They really need a solid quarterback and persistent threat back there and they should move some forwards not named Couturier, Giroux and Read....

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12-03-2013, 02:27 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
This team cannot transition out of its own zone. If the defense can't get the puck out fast and with tape to tape passes, they get hemmed in. This creates scoring chances for the opposing team plus tires out the offensive forwards. Plus the longer it takes to get the puck up the ice, the more time the opposing team has to set its defense and clog the neutral zone. This destroys any speed the forwards have up the ice killing their ability to forecheck. Grossmann and L. Schenn as well as Mezz and to a lesser extent Coburn are a problem because they can't transition the puck up the ice with any speed. Having forwards comeback does help but also kills the speed the team has up the ice to gets into the forechecking. I don't care what kind of sniper you add, if he doesn't have a clear shot on the goal because the entire defense got back or time to shoot, it won't matter.

Secondly, who among the current defense core is any threat to score from the point? Streit and Timonen don't exactly have bombs from the point. Timonen actual tries to miss more for deflections at the side of the net then get the shot on net. The other four defensemen are terrible. The opposing defenses have zero respect for the Flyers blueline shooters and collapses as a five man unit below the circles. Good luck wining board battles on the half wall or behind the net or getting to rebounds. If you have a defenseman that is a threat to score or beat a man one on one at the top of the zone, it can create chaos in coverage and odd man situations below.

The flyers have a nice stable of defense prospects but none of them are ready to contribute soon, except maybe Alt. It takes defensemen multiple years at the NHL level to really have an impact. By getting young NHL defensemen or NHL ready prospect in the AHL, the Flyers get a head start on that NHL development time. It actually saves some of Giroux's prime. Even if the flyers sign a Phanuef or Markov in the offseason, they will need cheap talent to fill out the back end since those guys would cost 6-8 mil a year. The flyers also shouldnt assume the prospects they have will be great. If there is a logjam, it a good situation to have.

I don't see how moving one or two of B. Schenn, Simmonds, or even Voracek would hurt this team long term. Forwards develop faster not only post draft but also at the NHL level. Laughton and Leier will be out of juniors next year and the Flyers have had a much better track record drafting forwards than defensemen. So hypothetically speaking, Flyers move Voracek and B. Schenn and replace them with Laughton and Cousins or even Leon Draisaitl if and the when the flyers fall in the standings. Top line is Hartnell (unmovable) Giroux Lecavalier with Read Laughton and Simmonds on the 2nd. Cousin Couturier and a resigned Downie on the 3rd. Is that lineup much worst then this year? Isn't adding a more mobile puck moving defense worth the downgrade?

What team is going to trade a high end puck mover for a guy like Simmonds or Voracek though? At best, you might get a guy like Gardiner or Carlson, but those guys aren't any better than players like Coburn or Timonen at their current level. Oh and say we trade those guys for upgrades on defense. Who scores goals then? The breakout is not the problem with this club. The forwards who can't move through the neutral zone with the puck are the problem. We don't have any puck possession forwards on this team outside of Giroux, and even he's a guy who's constantly looking to dish it off to a shooter. We have muckers and grinders in droves, but they can't do much else with it. For the offense to be successful, they have to play below the opponent's goal line. Other than that, guys like Hartnell, Simmonds, Downie, and even Voracek to a certain extent are useless.

But... if we move one or two of those guys for an upgrade in skill (i.e. Eberle for Simmonds+), it gives the team a guy or two that can't move through the neutral zone to push the opposing defense back. With that, you get pucks deep and allow your board battles to be won, or you make a play on transition. Our current group is one of the most one-demensional groups I've ever seen assembled.

I'm just not a fan of off-loading three or four of the forwards for a defenseman or two. You end up like Nashville that way. And you also won't be as good as Nashville in the regard. You can only build a defense like they have through the draft.

A forward for forward move or two could work in our benefit though, especially for a team that's looking for a winger that can play a grinding type of game. They should inquire about guys like Eberle and Kane. They can't just blow up the team to go in another direction again.


Last edited by flyershockey: 12-03-2013 at 02:48 PM.
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