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Hartnell and Simmonds.

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Old
12-03-2013, 08:02 AM
  #1
1865
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Hartnell and Simmonds.

8 from 23 and 12 from 27 respectively. You can deduct what I believe is a couple of empty netters from those modest totals too. All the while they drain about $8m from our cap annually.

It's just not good enough. Ignore the CSN fluff girls JJ and Jonesy buffing their product, they've been pathetic every night almost without exception. Hartnell has little to no effect on games any more except the traditional stupid penalty and Simmonds may be the stupidest non-4th liner I've ever seen. He lacks even the most basic hockey IQ, I'd hate to see him operate heavy machinery.

Despite this they keep their top line PP roles, they don't lose any ice time. Voracek has a bad few games and he sits for whole periods at a time. Meanwhile, these two clowns seemingly get rewarded for their ineptitude. Where is this accountability that Berube talked of? I don't expect the tougher guys to have hands like Giroux but it's getting silly now. Every shot is blocked, every check is a borderline penalty, every pass is into the skates or worse. Both of them drag their lines down on a nightly basis. They're fast becoming a purely negative influence on the team. Players like Raffl may not produce much scoring either, but at least he holds his own in the defensive zone. That's not something Wobbles and Curley can claim to excel at.

I'm tired of it. I said all summer that having both was a luxury. I'm now at the point where I don't want either. We need a power forward for sure, but we don't need these power forwards.

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12-03-2013, 08:38 AM
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You might get something for Simmonds (not sure if his "modified NTC would kick in) and a change of locales might do him some good. No-body in his right mind would take Hartnell and his contract baggage even if he waived his NMC.

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12-03-2013, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
I'm tired of it. I said all summer that having both was a luxury. I'm now at the point where I don't want either. We need a power forward for sure, but we don't need these power forwards.
Luxury? They are about as luxury as a Yugo.....

Simmer is redeemable ...Hartnell I've practically lost all patience. I don't care how much of a quality person he is. Guy needs to produce more on the ice or at the minimum not play as stupid as he is. He has been getting shots of late but we need somebody to finish. Seems the only thing he can finish is beers at Franklin Hall with Giroux "passing" them off to him.

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12-03-2013, 08:52 AM
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The pieces just don't fit together. Same old story again.

Hartnell and Simmonds both are solid players and may be very valuable to the right team, Simmer even more so because of his age.

I'm less concerned about Simmonds because he is just about to enter his prime years and he has at least shown flashes of what he is capable of for stretches in between this season where he was generating quality scoring chances for his linemates. His defensive awareness is pretty bad though and his +/- stats prove it (-9).

Hartnell no longer appears to be a constant top-6 player, let alone a first liner. He can still hit the back of the net but is struggling to get in the right places. And on top of it some of his former toughness has just disappeared.


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12-03-2013, 09:03 AM
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I thought Hartnell actually made a nice play last night on the forecheck to open up a pass that led to a ****** Voraslub shot (wide).

I can't wait to see one of them leave Philly and go win a Cup elsewhere.

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12-03-2013, 10:02 AM
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One of them can be useful, but having both in the top 9 is horrible way to assemble the team.

One of them HAS to go and be replaced with speed and skill. I would choose to keep Simmer, but he will be the one that is easier to move imo and will be more desirable.

Even if they bring back a D man, they can be better replaced from the Phantoms with a speedy fwd.

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12-03-2013, 10:05 AM
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I thought Hartnell actually made a nice play last night on the forecheck to open up a pass that led to a ****** Voraslub shot (wide).

I can't wait to see one of them leave Philly and go win a Cup elsewhere.
Who gives a **** if they win a cup elsewhere, they sure as hell wont here. They may fill a need on another team, but both on same team is horrific management.

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12-03-2013, 10:13 AM
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I'm ready to trade any or both of these two. Between the lack of offensive prowess and the dumb penalties, i'm just getting tired of them. I like their grit, but that won't get us any goals.

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12-03-2013, 10:19 AM
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I like both of them, but right now Hartnell does not belong on the top line and Simmonds is really only good in front of the net. I think they can both be effective players but they obvioulsy can't really create on their own. There's definitely a lack of skill and speed on this roster and if trading one of them can fill that hole, I'd say go for it. I want this team to have a dynamic duo; Giroux needs someone to play with.

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12-03-2013, 10:26 AM
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Are there not teams with 2 power forward types that are successful?

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12-03-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Are there not teams with 2 power forward types that are successful?
Making 9 Mill and not scoring, not pk ing, and both playing in the top 6, I highly doubt it ?

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12-03-2013, 10:28 AM
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I would trade either of them, but Hartnell has little value due to his lack of production and bloated contract.

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12-03-2013, 10:40 AM
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It's usually not smart to have two guys that play this type of game in any top six and especially not smart for our top six given how little flexibility it has right now since the Couturier line can't be broken up.

I think they're both just the same as they've ever been but their confidence is shot completely and they just don't fit well on this team. It's also not their fault that management thought it would be a good idea to have two of pretty much the exact marginal player in the top six. For the record, compared to an average NHL player those two definitely don't qualify as marginal, but as top six players I think they do. They are pretty much limited to secondary scoring and scoring goals by going to the net in any given year and that's only when things are going well.

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12-03-2013, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Making 9 Mill and not scoring, not pk ing, and both playing in the top 6, I highly doubt it ?
That's different than saying having both is a bad way to assemble a team. The problem is that neither is producing, not that they're similar players.

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12-03-2013, 11:10 AM
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That's different than saying having both is a bad way to assemble a team. The problem is that neither is producing, not that they're similar players.
That's really what I meant. Anyone can have problems producing, I meant more the mold of the player and how multiple can fit on a team.

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12-03-2013, 11:34 AM
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i really cant see Hartnell getting dealt. Not only is that contract near impossible to move , management loves him. So unless he retires early we will be stuck with him turning up the suck.
Simmonds is the likely candidate to be moved out. I know folks around here have a massive crush on the guy but he will have to be moved if you are looking to not only to bring in a scoring winger, but if you are looking to bring back Downie.
Simmonds alone tho is not going to get you a player that could help this team score goals.

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12-03-2013, 11:46 AM
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I dunno man. I wouldn't get rid of Simmonds. When his wheels are turning he's usually the fastest guy on the ice. His speed can open things up for his linemates. Can he improve and be more responsible both with and without the puck? Sure, i don't think anyone would argue that. I think folks are too quick to holler trade this guy every time we lose a game. You don't trade guys that can play and fight. Let Berube work with him for a season.

As far as Hartnell goes, he simply isn't playing his game. He doesn't hafta be a sniper, a pretty passer, or a tough guy out there, but he needs to chirp and he needs to do it in front of the net. Last couple seasons that's where he was gold. This season, i don't see him running goalies, chirping at guys or being a nuisance and really that's his game. If he starts chirping and makes himself a permanent fixture in front of the opposing goalie every game, you will start seeing a marked improvement in the whole team's play.

We're not going to trade ourselves out of our current situation. Let Berube have a season, an off season and a full training camp with these guys. Forget about the playoffs this year and focus on development. I really think as a franchise we're going to turn the corner and get back to defensively responsible hard nosed hockey and that's Flyers hockey. All this cross ice, rickey tick bull **** you see going on isn't Flyers hockey. We've already seen improvements and not all the players have bought in yet. Give it time.

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12-03-2013, 11:50 AM
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I dunno man. I wouldn't get rid of Simmonds. When his wheels are turning he's usually the fastest guy on the ice. His speed can open things up for his linemates. Can he improve and be more responsible both with and without the puck? Sure, i don't think anyone would argue that. I think folks are too quick to holler trade this guy every time we lose a game. You don't trade guys that can play and fight. Let Berube work with him for a season.

As far as Hartnell goes, he simply isn't playing his game. He doesn't hafta be a sniper, a pretty passer, or a tough guy out there, but he needs to chirp and he needs to do it in front of the net. Last couple seasons that's where he was gold. This season, i don't see him running goalies, chirping at guys or being a nuisance and really that's his game. If he starts chirping and makes himself a permanent fixture in front of the opposing goalie every game, you will start seeing a marked improvement in the whole team's play.

We're not going to trade ourselves out of our current situation. Let Berube have a season, an off season and a full training camp with these guys. Forget about the playoffs this year and focus on development. I really think as a franchise we're going to turn the corner and get back to defensively responsible hard nosed hockey and that's Flyers hockey. All this cross ice, rickey tick bull **** you see going on isn't Flyers hockey. We've already seen improvements and not all the players have bought in yet. Give it time.
I dont think this team is good enough to win with the wingers they have. Simmonds and Hartnell are part of that problem.

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12-03-2013, 12:08 PM
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I dont think this team is good enough to win with the wingers they have. Simmonds and Hartnell are part of that problem.
It doesn't matter who your wingers are. If you have no net presence, can't maintain puck possession, and make decent breakouts, you aren't going to win no matter who your wingers are. In my opinion there is way too much reliance on instant gratification within the organization and it has filtered down to the fan base. We have a highly skilled team playing like a bunch of individuals. That is a coachable problem.

When we traded Richy and Carts, we got a pretty good season out of the returns. It over rated everything. Well, we've come down to earth now. We have a ton of young talent that isn't fully developed yet. Simmonds is just now entering his prime years. For once I'd like to see patience win out. If a move absolutely MUST be made, then that move should be to fire Holmgren, not trade away our youth. That line of thinking is going to perpetuate this. I say let the new coach work his magic, and let the youth develop. If we get rid of any player at all it should be Streit. He's absolutely brutal with the turnovers and so far hasn't shown me anything more than what Gus shows.

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12-03-2013, 12:25 PM
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I think Hartnell has improved slightly his last three games.

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12-03-2013, 12:26 PM
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i really cant see Hartnell getting dealt. Not only is that contract near impossible to move , management loves him.
Hopefully Hextall loves him less than Homer does.

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12-03-2013, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cromster View Post
It doesn't matter who your wingers are. If you have no net presence, can't maintain puck possession, and make decent breakouts, you aren't going to win no matter who your wingers are. In my opinion there is way too much reliance on instant gratification within the organization and it has filtered down to the fan base. We have a highly skilled team playing like a bunch of individuals. That is a coachable problem.

When we traded Richy and Carts, we got a pretty good season out of the returns. It over rated everything. Well, we've come down to earth now. We have a ton of young talent that isn't fully developed yet. Simmonds is just now entering his prime years. For once I'd like to see patience win out. If a move absolutely MUST be made, then that move should be to fire Holmgren, not trade away our youth. That line of thinking is going to perpetuate this. I say let the new coach work his magic, and let the youth develop. If we get rid of any player at all it should be Streit. He's absolutely brutal with the turnovers and so far hasn't shown me anything more than what Gus shows.
Not going to deny that not having a sniper on the wings isnt the only problem this team has. I am not Streits biggest fan by any means but this team needed a guy who can get the puck to the forwards and Streit was the best on the FA market available. I just dont like the contract.
As you say maybe you need patience with Streit.
As far as Simmonds goes if he can be part of a package to get a player to make this team better then they should deal him. he is a good player when he wants to be but IMO he can be traded.
Hartnell is here to stay. They likely will try and bring back Downie. Simmonds to me is going to be the oddman out. either this season or next summer.

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12-03-2013, 12:52 PM
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I dunno man. I wouldn't get rid of Simmonds. When his wheels are turning he's usually the fastest guy on the ice. His speed can open things up for his linemates. Can he improve and be more responsible both with and without the puck? Sure, i don't think anyone would argue that. I think folks are too quick to holler trade this guy every time we lose a game. You don't trade guys that can play and fight. Let Berube work with him for a season.
That's the reason why some folks were hoping for him to turn into an Evander Kane type of speedy scoring winger.
But instead we got another Hartnell with better skating ability...at least so far.

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12-03-2013, 01:40 PM
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the addition of Downie has definitely made one of them expendable. having both Hartnell and Simmonds in the top 6 is killing the offense. as both of them just aren't that good skill wise.

i'd prefer Simmer over Harts. younger, tougher, cheaper, etc. the organization needs to do everything it can to convince Harts to waive his NTC. teams are always looking for power forwards. Harts had a 30G season just two years ago so he's not that far removed from a good season. if it's known he's available at the deadline teams will definitely offer up a lot for him. even more for Simmonds.

but yeah, it's clear one of them has to go to upgrade the skill on the team. it's disgusting to see them get more PP time than Downie. who is far more skilled than the two of them.

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12-03-2013, 01:40 PM
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That's the reason why some folks were hoping for him to turn into an Evander Kane type of speedy scoring winger.
But instead we got another Hartnell with better skating ability...at least so far.
Hartnell can't fight anywhere close to Simmond's ability, and Simmonds can't agitate anywhere close to Hartnell's ability.

Simmonds had a career high 28 goals and 21 assists for 49 points in 11-12. He is just now entering his prime. Unfortunately he is having an off year, but christ who on this team isn't right now. The dude can skate, he can score, and he is a pretty good fighter. Basically a mini Lucic. You trade FOR guys like that, you don't trade those guys away. No team will give us fair value. Patience is the key.

Trading this guy now is like betting your rent at the craps table. Sure it might work out, but realistically it's probably going to end in sadness.

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