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Fault: Trotz or Poile

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Old
12-05-2013, 10:19 AM
  #26
glenngineer
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
honestly if you want the true root of the problem, its Craig Leipold.

the skinflint budgets for years, the missed opportunity to lock up Hartnell long term, the firesale, followed by uncertainty followed by shoestring budgets for the first few years with the new owners(which is what forced the Weber arbitration fiasco), all have conspired to not give Poile a lot to work with

Im ready to give Poile some very bad marks for this past summer's acquisitons, but on balance he's done pretty well since the 04-05 lockout given what he had to maneuver around.

How different a team would we be right now with Hartnell and if Radulov hadnt ended up a headcase?

And Trotz is a good coach, and as said he would be rehired before he could get home from the Bridge if he is fired.. but the question does remain if he is the right coach for this team anymore...
We lost 3 players in that fiasco. It's been how many years now? We should be able to recover from that. I think Poile is an old school GM and his time has past. I'd say let Fenton take the reigns. I also think a GM that listens to his coach too much about what he wants on the ice is a bad idea. The GM is supposed to construct the team and the coach is there to mold what he's been given. Yes, they need to have contact and interaction but when I hear Poile and Trotz say these are the guys we targeted in free agency and we got who we wanted, they need to have their heads examined. You can't score so we bring in these guys? Really? That's poor talent evaluation.

As I said in another thread, poor asset management. To have almost a complete d-corp playing elsewhere and all we had to show for it was Blum and Ryan Jones, that's pretty sad.

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12-05-2013, 10:30 AM
  #27
triggrman
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both.....

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12-05-2013, 10:48 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
We lost 3 players in that fiasco.
Hartnell, Timonen, Vokoun, Kariya. Should I continue?

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12-05-2013, 10:51 AM
  #29
token grinder
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Can I blame the players? Or is this a case of blaming the teacher no matter how bad the students are?

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12-05-2013, 10:52 AM
  #30
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Can I blame the players? Or is this a case of blaming the teacher no matter how bad the students are?
When all the students are bad is it the recruiter?

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12-05-2013, 10:59 AM
  #31
glenngineer
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Originally Posted by codeyh View Post
Hartnell, Timonen, Vokoun, Kariya. Should I continue?
Kariya was a free agent that wanted more than we wanted to pay. Don't count him. The other three were free agents or just newly signed and were to be gone to help the sale of the team.

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12-05-2013, 11:11 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
Can I blame the players? Or is this a case of blaming the teacher no matter how bad the students are?
If it's the players than either the wrong players where chosen by Poile or Trotz is not coaching them well enough to succeed. There's no other way around it.

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12-05-2013, 11:47 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Kariya was a free agent that wanted more than we wanted to pay. than our ownership was able to pay him. Don't count him. The other three were free agents or just newly signed and were to be gone to help the sale of the team.
he counts....

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12-05-2013, 02:11 PM
  #34
token grinder
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If it's the players than either the wrong players where chosen by Poile or Trotz is not coaching them well enough to succeed. There's no other way around it.
There are plenty of variables that you don't want to see or acknoledge. When I said is it the players, I think they are not producing at the level to which they have either shown in the past and were rewarded for it and expected to continue it, or haven't developed the way we as fans expected them too. I don't put development fully on coaching, but actually more on a players drive, which is something we don't know about it. We don't know how much work in the offseason they put in, we don't know how much tape and opponet study they do. We don't know how much the guys care to go above and beyond the 4 hours of on ice practice a week or the couple hours of film. It is what seperates the guys with equal skills from good to great to elite.

That is where I am going with blaming the players. I don't hear enough or read about the work they put into their games. And it makes more sense to me than just arbitralily blaming the system or Poile and his 8000 grinders. Those guys, while I don't like the term all bring a skill set and brought depth we desperatley needed. And I think they have for the most part been fine. I want to believe Stalberg, Wilson, Forsberg have been the difference in where we thought we might be and where we are. They have not produced.

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12-05-2013, 02:32 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
he counts....
Was he worth the $6 million he got from St. Louis? For the two seasons he was here, he was worth the money we paid him. If I were Poile, I wouldn't have paid him $18 million over 3 years.

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12-05-2013, 04:10 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
There are plenty of variables that you don't want to see or acknoledge. When I said is it the players, I think they are not producing at the level to which they have either shown in the past and were rewarded for it and expected to continue it, or haven't developed the way we as fans expected them too. I don't put development fully on coaching, but actually more on a players drive, which is something we don't know about it. We don't know how much work in the offseason they put in, we don't know how much tape and opponet study they do. We don't know how much the guys care to go above and beyond the 4 hours of on ice practice a week or the couple hours of film. It is what seperates the guys with equal skills from good to great to elite.

That is where I am going with blaming the players. I don't hear enough or read about the work they put into their games. And it makes more sense to me than just arbitralily blaming the system or Poile and his 8000 grinders. Those guys, while I don't like the term all bring a skill set and brought depth we desperatley needed. And I think they have for the most part been fine. I want to believe Stalberg, Wilson, Forsberg have been the difference in where we thought we might be and where we are. They have not produced.
It's the GM's job to bring the best players into the organization. It's the coach's job to get them to perform like they should. So Poile has selected the all the right players, whether that be thru draft, trade, free agency, waivers or whatever, who have produced better elsewhere or shown promise. And Trotz has put them in the best position to succeed, in practice and games. Yet the players haven't worked hard enough in their development or have the correct drive to achieve success? These players were all fine, but once they came here, they all of sudden didn't cut it? That's an incredible claim. And if so, it's still Trotz's fault for not getting them to develop and/or Poile's fault for either selecting players who don't give a crap or for not shipping the players out.

Trotz and Poile clearly can do no wrong.

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12-05-2013, 04:21 PM
  #37
triggrman
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Stalberg is supposed to produce more than he did in Chicago when he was playing with elite talent and more ice time. I wonder why he's not getting the same or better results......

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Old
12-05-2013, 06:02 PM
  #38
glenngineer
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Stalberg is supposed to produce more than he did in Chicago when he was playing with elite talent and more ice time. I wonder why he's not getting the same or better results......
Not playing with elite talent. Not enough ice time. No power play time.

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Old
12-06-2013, 12:10 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Was he worth the $6 million he got from St. Louis? For the two seasons he was here, he was worth the money we paid him. If I were Poile, I wouldn't have paid him $18 million over 3 years.
If given the opportunity right now, even with his age and health problems, I would take him back in a heartbeat because he would be head and shoulders more talented, intelligent, and hungrier than any forward wearing the fangs. Hell, what are Gordie and Wayne doing these days????

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12-06-2013, 01:10 AM
  #40
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Gordie is suffering from Alzheimer's.

Wayne is looking for work, but as a GM.

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12-10-2013, 12:13 PM
  #41
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I was thinking of all of Poile's mess-ups that have gotten us to where we are.

Hamhuis should have been moved before his UFA year, same with Suter. I know what Poile was thinking but he ended up wrong.

Hendricks' contract. Although he was a Trotz target according to Trotz.

The trade for Witt.

Drafting goalies in the first round.

Ryan Ellis of course.

And Hutton.

His handling of Weber and Suter could not have been much worse.

Funny he's not done much lately right. I've seen weathermen with more accuracy.

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12-10-2013, 12:51 PM
  #42
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I see it as a shared blame. Poile for the building of the current roster. Poile should have only signed 2 of the 4 free agents over the summer. Then he should have called up 2 players from Milwaukee to round out the roster.



Trotz for not realizing his 'system' is a failure. He needs to learn to relax a little on the defensive side and let some of the forwards play what they are in the game for score. Trotz in addition needs to learn to let rookies make mistakes. That's how they learn and get better.

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12-10-2013, 01:37 PM
  #43
triggrman
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I do believe Trotz system is the main reason FA won't play here.

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12-10-2013, 01:37 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I was thinking of all of Poile's mess-ups that have gotten us to where we are.

Hamhuis should have been moved before his UFA year, same with Suter. I know what Poile was thinking but he ended up wrong.

Hendricks' contract. Although he was a Trotz target according to Trotz.

The trade for Witt.

Drafting goalies in the first round.

Ryan Ellis of course.

And Hutton.

His handling of Weber and Suter could not have been much worse.

Funny he's not done much lately right. I've seen weathermen with more accuracy.
I disagree on a couple of these. He shouldn't have traded Suter while we were a top team, BUT what he said at the all-star game should have immediately raised some alarms.

We shouldn't overpay so much for grinding talent. Witt was an okay pick up, but not at that price. I do understand the Gaustad trade though, he was trying to win it all.

Ryan Ellis is a peculiar one. I think that you should always draft BPA, but we should have traded him while his value was high. We had a deal with Boston to trade him for their pick to pick up Couturier, but it was nixed when Philly took him. I think that was a mistake, it's still a top 10 pick, something that we don't get often and we still could have gotten a good forward prospect or a better defense prospect.

Hamilton, Brodin, Barteschi, Miller, Armia would all look good in gold or would open up some room for another defense trade.

Poile is way too stingy with his assets, wasting them while they bust or go to free agency.

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Old
12-10-2013, 01:41 PM
  #45
triggrman
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I was against the Ellis pick from the start. Small slow defensemen aren't worth first round picks.

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12-10-2013, 01:48 PM
  #46
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I was against the Ellis pick from the start. Small slow defensemen aren't worth first round picks.
I think with his pedigree you take a risk on him. He was a winner at every level, that may not translate to the bigs, but if it does you have another Niedermayer.

Just saying that he did break offensive records, interest in him should have been high enough to get a high risk high reward forward back.

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12-10-2013, 02:06 PM
  #47
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Small and slow rarely work out in the NHL, I can't think of any...... That's why you don't draft him.

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12-10-2013, 03:42 PM
  #48
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I do believe Trotz system is the main reason FA won't play here.
Which free agents are you referring to?

Kariya, Dumont, Arnott all contacted us because they wanted to play here. Most establish veterans had career years or close to career years under Trotz.

Main reason free agents (including our own Weber and Suter) don't want to play here is because the lack of talent around them. Weber and Suter stated this publicly-- that they wanted to see roster improvements around them before signing long term deals. That's Poile.


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Old
12-10-2013, 04:17 PM
  #49
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Since Liarpoold left, Trotz has system has become way more restrictive, it's sad you had to go back 7 years to find a FA that wanted to play here.

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12-10-2013, 04:32 PM
  #50
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Since Liarpoold left, Trotz has system has become way more restrictive, it's sad you had to go back 7 years to find a FA that wanted to play here.
Still waiting on names of free agents who didn't want to play here (or is this speculation?). Other than Weber and Suter, who both said they wanted roster improvements before singing long term contracts.

Singing free agents is not a means to build an offense.

There are ZERO players in the top 25 of scoring who signed with a new team as a free agent.

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