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Senators pushing for 2017 Heritage Classic vs Habs

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Old
12-04-2013, 11:16 AM
  #76
jayme2017
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Winnipeg has already discussed hosting in either 2016 or 2017 with the NHL though. Do the Winnipeg Jets deserve a Heritage Classic? Not sure why Ottawa is any more deserving of 2017 than would be Winnipeg, given that Winnipeg won multiple cups prior to Ottawa winning their first. Their hockey heritage is just fine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Cup_champions

Not really sure why you'd suggest I was arguing over the "cultural significance of corporate entities" either; I conversely simply posted a photo of the most logical venue for the next Heritage event, given that it is easily the newest and nicest outdoor venue in Canada at the moment.
In 2017 its Canada's big birthday and Ottawa will be the meca of events for that year.

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12-04-2013, 11:25 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by jayme2017 View Post
In 2017 its Canada's big birthday and Ottawa will be the meca of events for that year.
That doesn't mean that Ottawa is the most logical venue simply due that it is the capital though. Canada's birthdays/centennials are celebrated right across the country.

Winnipeg comparatively offers the premiere stadium setting, hands down.

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12-04-2013, 11:30 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
That doesn't mean that Ottawa is the most logical venue simply due that it is the capital though. Canada's birthdays/centennials are celebrated right across the country.

Winnipeg comparatively offers the premiere stadium setting, hands down.
Most major events will be in Ottawa places like Winnipeg could get smaller events as for premiere stadium setting well Landsdown park right beside the canal is one of the best settings.

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12-04-2013, 11:55 AM
  #79
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With it being Pittsburgh's 50th in 2017 could there be an event held there?

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12-04-2013, 12:01 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Why should the Leafs get everything that year?
Because the Habs did.

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12-04-2013, 12:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
That doesn't mean that Ottawa is the most logical venue simply due that it is the capital though. Canada's birthdays/centennials are celebrated right across the country.

Winnipeg comparatively offers the premiere stadium setting, hands down.
It's kind of interesting that Ottawa and Winnipeg are polar opposites when it comes to hockey and football venues. Winnipeg has a downtown arena but it's football stadium is on the outer reaches of the city. Ottawa's arena is in the burbs' but its football stadium is central.

Both cities will (once Ottawa's is complete) have very nice stadiums to host an outdoor game and I'm sure in time, both will get games.

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12-04-2013, 02:58 PM
  #82
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Sorry Ottawa, get in the back of the line.

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12-04-2013, 03:13 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by JetsFlyHigh View Post
Sorry Ottawa, get in the back of the line.
Why should Winnipeg get it before Ottawa?

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12-04-2013, 03:21 PM
  #84
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I love the Rideau Canal idea... even though it's basically impossible. But if they somehow pulled that off, nothing would compare.

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12-04-2013, 03:22 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
With it being Pittsburgh's 50th in 2017 could there be an event held there?
Yeah they can keep their biennial winter classic as long as they don't host in 2016 or 2018. Obviously they can play those years as the visiting team...

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12-04-2013, 05:29 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
That doesn't mean that Ottawa is the most logical venue simply due that it is the capital though. Canada's birthdays/centennials are celebrated right across the country.
How do you figure that? Reverse logic. Its precisely because its the capital that it should trump anywhere else across the country. But why does it have to be a case who might or might not be more entitled over another? The Feds should be working with all of the Canadian teams & their provincial counterparts in securing Outdoor Games for every one of them in 2017 & throwing some serious sponsorship $$$ at the league in the process.

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Originally Posted by jayme2017 View Post
Why should Winnipeg get it before Ottawa?
They wouldnt, wont if its a case of one over the other even if they do have superior facilities, better venue. Doesnt compute. They, like Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Toronto & Montreal should all get games, Toronto also awarded the All Star Game, it too staged outdoors with additional events, like the Skills Competition etc staged at the ACC. A Marlies game played as well Outdoors. Possibly an OHL game. Guess we'll see what Collins is cooking up and I sure hope its creative. None of this cookie cutter crap thats already getting tired.

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12-04-2013, 05:44 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Charon of Styx View Post
Yeah they can keep their biennial winter classic as long as they don't host in 2016 or 2018. Obviously they can play those years as the visiting team...
Other teams have played in it as much as Pittsburgh you know....

I was thinking more this in 2017;

Winter Classic - Toronto
ASG - Pittsburgh
Draft - Toronto
Heritage Classic - Ottawa

Of course I actually doubt that Pittsburgh would get something as they have less of a case for it.

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12-05-2013, 04:33 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Winnipeg has already discussed hosting in either 2016 or 2017 with the NHL though. Do the Winnipeg Jets deserve a Heritage Classic? Not sure why Ottawa is any more deserving of 2017 than would be Winnipeg, given that Winnipeg won multiple cups prior to Ottawa winning their first. Their hockey heritage is just fine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Cup_champions

Not really sure why you'd suggest I was arguing over the "cultural significance of corporate entities" either; I conversely simply posted a photo of the most logical venue for the next Heritage event, given that it is easily the newest and nicest outdoor venue in Canada at the moment.
Because Ottawa as the political centre of the country deserves to have the most cultural events DURING CANADA's 150th BIRTHDAY.

Heritage Classic, Grey Cup, 2017, Ottawa. Book it.

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Old
12-05-2013, 07:38 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
So the only things that the modern Senators share with the original Senators are the two most important things?
Minus, being the actual franchise?

The original Senators moved to St. Louis in 1934 and folded outright in 1935.

They are no more related to the current franchise as the Atlanta Flames were to the Thrashers or the Wild are to the North Stars. Even less so, in fact, because there is no common thread between the two. In case of the North Stars, for example, there were still previously active North Stars playing in the league. The gap between the move to Dallas and the Wild playing their first game was 7 years.

Not only was that there was no active players, there was only one former player alive when the expansion team was announced, and he passed before the first game was even played. The team didn't exist for more years than it existed in the first place. Ottawa, as a City, certainly has a right to the hockey history that took place in it. But there's a difference between that and the franchise itself claiming to inherit that history, based on arbitrarily sharing a name.

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Originally Posted by Clamshells View Post
But no one from the 1917 maple leafs will even be alive in 2017, so they're not even the same team! They definitely don't deserve any heritage games!
-Maple Leafs fan logic
The difference is continuity. Even an individual who disagrees with my position should be able to comprehend that. The Leafs, for example, do not claim the history of the 1914 Blue Shirts. The team was based in Toronto, it won the Stanley Cup, it wore Blue and White, and many of the players ended up playing for the Maple Leafs franchise. But it folded, it ceased to exist, in 1917.

Note that I never did say Ottawa, as a City, cannot claim the original Senators heritage. Or, for that matter, say anything to extent that the City should not host an outdoor game. Only that the modern Senators have no connection the original Senators and pretending that they do does not make it so.

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12-05-2013, 12:41 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Not only was that there was no active players, there was only one former player alive when the expansion team was announced, and he passed before the first game was even played.
This has been covered before and pointed out that this is incorrect. The person you're referring to, I assume, is Frank Finnigan. He was the last surviving member of the final Stanley Cup winning Senators team in 1927. The team itself survived into the 1930's and there were living former players alive when the team took to the ice in 1992.

Otherwise, I agree with you that the existing team has no real connection with the original Senators. I'm not sure how much that matters though since Ottawa, the city, can claim them as part of their history and the modern Senators, as the current representatives of the city in the NHL, can celebrate the old team's history without putting themselves forward as having any formal ties. The Stanley Cup banners that hang in the arena should be there, but they shouldn't have the modern Senators' logo on them.

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12-05-2013, 02:10 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
The Leafs, for example, do not claim the history of the 1914 Blue Shirts. The team was based in Toronto, it won the Stanley Cup, it wore Blue and White, and many of the players ended up playing for the Maple Leafs franchise. But it folded, it ceased to exist, in 1917.
Interestingly, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harpers book on the history of hockey is called A Great Game, The Forgotten Leafs & The Rise of Professional Hockey.... He details the NHA & OHA and quite specifically the Toronto Arenas', naming the club of today (the Leafs) in the very title itself yet referencing the Toronto Arenas'. Personally I dont have a problem with that, and if MLSE wanted to hang some Toronto Arenas' banners from the rafters at the ACC Id be good with that too. The Leafs like Ottawa cant claim those cups as theirs, but for sure the cities can & should. And obviously for many including Harper, the Arenas & Leafs are essentially one & the same. Ottawa02 has every right to romantically link itself to Ottawa01, to build on the ideals & backs of the past greats, multiple Cups, to honor the cities heritage. Good for them.

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Old
12-24-2013, 11:56 AM
  #92
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http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...-outdoor-game/

NHL confirms Ottawa will get an outdoor game.

"The only question is when."

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Old
12-24-2013, 12:19 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Minus, being the actual franchise?

The original Senators moved to St. Louis in 1934 and folded outright in 1935.

They are no more related to the current franchise as the Atlanta Flames were to the Thrashers or the Wild are to the North Stars. Even less so, in fact, because there is no common thread between the two. In case of the North Stars, for example, there were still previously active North Stars playing in the league. The gap between the move to Dallas and the Wild playing their first game was 7 years.
That actually makes it worse: They're are players from your team playing on a different city with a different name? Clearly they aren't from your team, then.

The common thread is the city, the name, and the colours of the team.

Quote:
Not only was that there was no active players, there was only one former player alive when the expansion team was announced, and he passed before the first game was even played. The team didn't exist for more years than it existed in the first place. Ottawa, as a City, certainly has a right to the hockey history that took place in it. But there's a difference between that and the franchise itself claiming to inherit that history, based on arbitrarily sharing a name.
Yes, it's arbitrary aside from being a team in the exact same league in the exact same city with the exact same name.

Quote:
The difference is continuity. Even an individual who disagrees with my position should be able to comprehend that. The Leafs, for example, do not claim the history of the 1914 Blue Shirts. The team was based in Toronto, it won the Stanley Cup, it wore Blue and White, and many of the players ended up playing for the Maple Leafs franchise. But it folded, it ceased to exist, in 1917.
They do however claim the history of the Toronto St. Pats: A team with a different name and colours.

Quote:
Note that I never did say Ottawa, as a City, cannot claim the original Senators heritage. Or, for that matter, say anything to extent that the City should not host an outdoor game. Only that the modern Senators have no connection the original Senators and pretending that they do does not make it so.
Which is semantics: No one is arguing that they're the same franchise. They're connection is the city and the team name. Pretending they don't matter doesn't make those facts unimportant.

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Old
12-24-2013, 02:31 PM
  #94
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Hope Ottawa does get this event in late February - early March of 2017.

I know the league had spaced out the Heritage Classic prior to this (Edmonton in 2003, Calgary in 2011 or 2012 don't remember which right now, and Vancouver in 2014), but I think they will be willing to make this an annual event like the Winter Classic. Too much money at stake.

So with that said I think the league will have the 2016 Heritage Classic in Winnipeg in in late February - early March. Winnipeg will, in all probability, host the 2015 Grey Cup so they can keep the 7,000 - 8,000 temporary seats in place at IGF throughout the winter to be used during Heritage Classic late winter 2016.

This should be followed up by the Ottawa Heritage Classic (late winter 2017) and Grey Cup (November 2017) as part of numerous events in the capital to celebrate Canada's 150th.

I would bet this is how it turns out.

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Old
12-24-2013, 04:54 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Minus, being the actual franchise?

The original Senators moved to St. Louis in 1934 and folded outright in 1935.

They are no more related to the current franchise as the Atlanta Flames were to the Thrashers or the Wild are to the North Stars.
There is a difference though, between Sens 1 and Sens 2 and the examples above, and it's a major one. When the Wild and Thrashers/Jets 2 came on board, the old franchises from Minnesota and Winnipeg were still playing in Dallas and Phoenix, so clearly the new franchises in Minnesota and Winnipeg were clearly not linked in any way to the old except by geography. The folding of the Senators happened differently. The league took back the franchise with the expressed right to restore it. When the Sens 2were created, the league issued the new owners a letter saying they were doing essentially that, linking it to the old franchise. How tight that link is I don't know because the letter doesn't seem to be public, and someone else on these boards commented on the same thing - that we don't have the exact wording of the letter. But the league clearly intended to provide a link of some kind between the franchises, based, I believe on its right to restore the franchise the league absorbed in 1935. And sometime in the late '30s or early '40s, there was a request by Ottawa interests for the league to give them back that franchise, but it didn't work out. I've written to a Sens historian about this question of exactly what link was stated in the letter from the league and didn't get an answer. Maybe it was meant to be left a mystery so each of us can fill in our own preferences - do we feel better thinking the two teams are linked or prefer to think of them as two completely separate franchises? Until that letter's made public, I think either interpretation has some validity. My view, based on the limited info that we have, is that the league wanted to link them in some way and had the right to do so because of the way it reabsorbed the original franchise.

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Old
12-26-2013, 11:08 PM
  #96
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Having it on Rideau Canal would not be possible, because by 2017, Rideau Canal will no longer freeze during Winter.

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12-27-2013, 12:19 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
They do however claim the history of the Toronto St. Pats: A team with a different name and colours.
The Arenas changed their name to the St.Pats, who then changed their name to the Maple Leafs.

Its the same franchise.

BTW on a different post, The Arena and St.Pats's SC banners are
up at the ACC.

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12-27-2013, 12:41 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
The Arenas changed their name to the St.Pats, who then changed their name to the Maple Leafs.

Its the same franchise.

BTW on a different post, The Arena and St.Pats's SC banners are
up at the ACC.
Uhh they don't have the same name, and they're in the same city so I have to disagree. It's like saying Phoenix is the Jets and Winnipeg isn't, which is just plain wrong.

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12-27-2013, 10:35 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
They are no more related to the current franchise as the Atlanta Flames were to the Thrashers or the Wild are to the North Stars.
I'm not sure how true this is - the NHL gave the Senators a certificate of reinstatement, which assumes some kind of link (albeit a more tenuous link than the continuity when would have resulted from a century of continuous play). However records for the two teams are kept separately, implying that there's a distinction.

It's also entirely possible that the certificate of reinstatement was just a PR move and means nothing at all, and is symbolic at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkling View Post
This has been covered before and pointed out that this is incorrect. The person you're referring to, I assume, is Frank Finnigan. He was the last surviving member of the final Stanley Cup winning Senators team in 1927. The team itself survived into the 1930's and there were living former players alive when the team took to the ice in 1992.
Finnigan was the last surviving member of the original Senators, and died in 1991. He was supposed to have dropped the ceremonial puck in the Sens' first game.

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12-27-2013, 10:46 AM
  #100
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Really this year's Heritage Classic should have been in Ottawa.

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