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MLB Discussion Thread, Part II: Yanks pay Ellsbury

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Old
12-05-2013, 01:03 PM
  #876
Lundsanity30
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
But where are Detroit or Texas putting him? Detroit has Kinsler now. Texas has Profar and Andrus. Unless they move Profar for Price. But Texas still has to pay Price and they just added Fielder. Now I know Detroit is paying a portion of Fielder's deal but still, do they have even more money for Cano? Beltre is over there as well. Who is catching for them? They have holes to fill. I think Texas ends up deciding against Price, buying low on one of the SPs on the market and keeping their youth up the middle.
oh I agree I wasnt indicating those teams would, im saying he might take a bigger offer if they are a perennial contender year in and year out as opposed to a franchise like Seattle because they don't have the appeal. I agree the Rangers, Tigers, Redsox, Dodgers, etc will not be in on him because they are set and have other holes, which is why I believe the Yankees may be content with their offer, but lets not forget after 2003 they were also content to let Pettitte wait and look what happened. I think Cano wants to be a Yankee obviously abd personally he's doing what Cruz did to the Giants, holding out for their very best offer

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12-05-2013, 01:19 PM
  #877
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Only responding to some, as I agreed or concur with the rest you said.

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That's why I posted the baseballprospectus article in response to BRB. But you need a farm system producing talent if you want to contend every year. You can't pay every single guy on the roster between $17 and $28 million per year. And continuously locking yourself into those kinds of contracts makes it harder to sustain success, not easier.
I can accept the faults of their farm system. That is on them. They have handed out contracts that didn't pay off. You're right you can't pay every player on the roster a large sum of money. So you have to pick and choose and rely on your farm system. I think they have done a better job with their bullpen than starting pitching help. The MLB draft is a lot different than hockey as you pointed out. More rounds. You can find a good pitcher in the middle teen rounds. They need to invest more money into their scouting and development. That is their problem right now.
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You're working under the assumption that you have to stop competing to build up a strong farm system. The CBA is littered with ways to for big market clubs to beef up their farm system thanks to the compensation system. The Cardinals have been in the playoffs four out of the last five years and they have done all of that while amassing a staggering amount of young talent. The key is good scouting and player development people.
Cardinals are a model organization. The Cardinals let Pujols walk. They drafted and developed well. But to use the Cardinals as an example is unique. They are a finely run organization. How many organizations are operating like them? Or at least succeeding in operating like them?
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But notice that the Red Sox have wised up and stopped counterpunching. The Yankees signed Ellsbury and the Red Sox basically shrugged because they have Jackie Bradley Jr. to plug in thanks to their system.
Let's wait and see how Bradley does for them before we check him off as a success for the red sox.
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You listed four guys and the best two of them are in their 30s. Cano is 31. Gardner is 30. Even Robertson and Nova are 28 and 26 respectively. That's a stunningly small amount of production from the farm system. The Yankees are heading into next year without a single member of their starting nine under the age of 30.
Early 30s. In baseball that isn't awful. In hockey that starts to take the turn towards retirement for many NHLers. A lot of major leaguers play late into their careers. And a lot of major leaguers are effective into their mid 30s. Many major leaguers don't break into the show until their mid 20s. So I think you can't harp on two of those guys being 26 and 28. Or even 30 or 31. They will hopefully have these guys competing for the next few years allowing for development of prospects.
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Damon got $52 million over four years. Ellsbury got $153 million over seven years. I know revenues have gone way up across baseball, but that's a massive jump. Also, the Yankees are in a way worse position today than they were heading into 2007. Back then they were a reigning division champ and the only competition they faced for a playoff spot was Boston. Now they're an 85 win team (that sported a -21 run differential) that has to deal with Boston, Tampa, and conceivably Baltimore.
The landscape is different. Damon got roughly $12 million per year. Ellsbury is getting roughly $21 million per year. As you said revenues are more bloated now. I don't think its that massive of a jump. I think Ellsbury compared to Damon, is a better player and warrants the extra money.
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Also, one championship might not be so great if it's balanced off by serious pain in the last few years of the deal. Like you said, the Yankees need to contend every year to satisfy their market.
Honestly, I wasn't that upset about not making it to the playoffs this past year. I have seen 5 world series. And we had one most recently in 2009. The salaries handed out paid off. A player on one of those large contracts providing a world series ring is a success to me, even if its just one.

They do need to contend every year and thats why we signed McCann and Ellsbury thus far.
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Ah yes, but there's a hidden cost there called development time. Most prospects take three to five years to reach the majors from the time you draft them. Pushing that clock back an extra year further delays when help can arrive from an already depleted system. On top of that, the Yankees were scheduled to pick 18th, which would've been their highest pick in years. And like I noted before, signing Ellsbury costs them the comp pick they would've gotten for Granderson thanks to the new CBA. And again, there's no more drafting guys overslot allowed so it's not like they can compensate with extra cash.
MLB is not a 7 round draft. They have sacrificed opening round picks, but the organizations problem is scouting and development. Not because they have signed big name free agents, costing them 1st round picks and compensation picks.

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12-05-2013, 01:35 PM
  #878
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McCann presser just happened.

As I had stated a few days ago, $189 million is just a GOAL. Hal Steinbrenner just confirmed that in his interview with Jack Curry. He stated the 189 number is a goal they think they can get to HOWEVER they will not neglect fielding a competitive team. Essentially if they have to go over the 189 goal they will to meet the teams needs.

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12-05-2013, 01:43 PM
  #879
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if they want Cano and Tanaka they will have to, especially if Arod escapes

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12-05-2013, 02:05 PM
  #880
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Cardinals are a model organization. The Cardinals let Pujols walk. They drafted and developed well. But to use the Cardinals as an example is unique. They are a finely run organization. How many organizations are operating like them? Or at least succeeding in operating like them?
It's hard to do, but if you want to compete every year that's what you have to do. And the Yankees are in direct competition with some of the best run teams in baseball. The Red Sox have a phenomenal system that's already bearing fruit like Bogaerts and Bradley with more on the way. The Rays and their low budget contending wizardry aren't going anywhere either.

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Early 30s. In baseball that isn't awful. In hockey that starts to take the turn towards retirement for many NHLers. A lot of major leaguers play late into their careers. And a lot of major leaguers are effective into their mid 30s. Many major leaguers don't break into the show until their mid 20s. So I think you can't harp on two of those guys being 26 and 28. Or even 30 or 31. They will hopefully have these guys competing for the next few years allowing for development of prospects.
Let me put it another way. Nova's the youngest of those guys. He was a rookie in 2010. The Yankees haven't had anyone substantial break in since then.

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The landscape is different. Damon got roughly $12 million per year. Ellsbury is getting roughly $21 million per year. As you said revenues are more bloated now. I don't think its that massive of a jump. I think Ellsbury compared to Damon, is a better player and warrants the extra money.
Damon was a speedy, left-handed center fielder who couldn't throw with a career obp of .352 and a career OPS+ of 104. Ellsbury is a speedy, left-handed center field who can't throw with a career obp of .350 and a career OPS+ of 108. Ellsbury's a better defender and steals more bases, but Damon had a lot more power. Baseball revenues are up, but they're not up that much.

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Honestly, I wasn't that upset about not making it to the playoffs this past year. I have seen 5 world series. And we had one most recently in 2009. The salaries handed out paid off. A player on one of those large contracts providing a world series ring is a success to me, even if its just one.

They do need to contend every year and thats why we signed McCann and Ellsbury thus far.
You may not care if they miss the playoffs every so often, but the Yankees and their fans do. Scroll down to the win curve graphs: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=22353

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MLB is not a 7 round draft. They have sacrificed opening round picks, but the organizations problem is scouting and development. Not because they have signed big name free agents, costing them 1st round picks and compensation picks.
Baseball isn't hockey, but the best talent still tends to go in the upper portion of the draft. You are dramatically damaging your chances to draft impact players by not picking in the first few rounds. Draft signing pools are directly tied to how many picks you have in each round and how high those picks are. Keeping your own first rounder and landing just a few comp picks can give you a massive edge.

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12-05-2013, 02:10 PM
  #881
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McCann presser just happened.

As I had stated a few days ago, $189 million is just a GOAL. Hal Steinbrenner just confirmed that in his interview with Jack Curry. He stated the 189 number is a goal they think they can get to HOWEVER they will not neglect fielding a competitive team. Essentially if they have to go over the 189 goal they will to meet the teams needs.
Somebody got in Hal's ear. They've been talking about the fiscally prudent goal of $189M for 2 years now -- to the point where they were dormant last offseason in order to not make any long term commitments. They missed the playoffs, attendance and YES viewership dropped like a stone, and here we are -- with somebody whispering in Hal's ear "You know, your Dad never let a little money stand in the way of improving the team."

The dirty little secret is that for all the money George threw away, his championships were built on drafting and developing homegrown talent while he was out of baseball whether it be for illegal campaign contributions or digging up dirt on Dave Winfield.

This organization is run ass-backwards, and until they start placing a premium on developing talent again, all the money in the world won't save them.

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12-05-2013, 02:11 PM
  #882
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per Bryan Hoch.. Cashman said Kuroda wants to return, dialohlgue continuing

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12-05-2013, 02:20 PM
  #883
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Bryan Hoch*@BryanHochCashman said his understanding is that Hiroki Kuroda wants to return it the Yankees. Dialogue continuing

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12-05-2013, 02:24 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Somebody got in Hal's ear. They've been talking about the fiscally prudent goal of $189M for 2 years now -- to the point where they were dormant last offseason in order to not make any long term commitments. They missed the playoffs, attendance and YES viewership dropped like a stone, and here we are -- with somebody whispering in Hal's ear "You know, your Dad never let a little money stand in the way of improving the team."

The dirty little secret is that for all the money George threw away, his championships were built on drafting and developing homegrown talent while he was out of baseball whether it be for illegal campaign contributions or digging up dirt on Dave Winfield.

This organization is run ass-backwards, and until they start placing a premium on developing talent again, all the money in the world won't save them.
George got in his ear while he was sleeping one night.

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12-05-2013, 02:31 PM
  #885
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George got in his ear while he was sleeping one night.
maybe it was hal dreaming about a half empty stadium. oh wait, that was reality

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12-05-2013, 02:36 PM
  #886
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So it looks like Tanaka's team really doesn't want to post him now that there's a cap on the fee: http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10...-golden-eagles

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12-05-2013, 02:37 PM
  #887
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If Steinbrenner was smart he'd give the people who run the cardinals $100 million to run the yanks

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12-05-2013, 02:38 PM
  #888
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If Steinbrenner was smart he'd give the people who run the cardinals $100 million to run the yanks
Why not buy off the Rays' management and take out a competitor?

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12-05-2013, 02:51 PM
  #889
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They wouldn't get the same leeway and patience here.

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12-05-2013, 03:01 PM
  #890
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had a feeling this might happen, knew they wouldn't spend for choo..

anyway, where did you hear this?
Guess they haven't announced it yet. There were a bunch of random outlets posting that they had agreed to a verbal agreement last night. Nothing reported yet. This makes me sad.

Mets would do well to sign Granderson and Cruz and shift Lagares to SS, where he once played.

Would do wonders for our offense.

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12-05-2013, 03:16 PM
  #891
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ysports.yahoo.com/news/york-mets-time-acq...The*New York Mets*are optimistic about finalizing a deal with free agent*Curtis Granderson, tweetsJon Heyman of CBS Sports. If Sandy Alderson acquires the outfielder, he'll be able to shift his focus to filling other roster needs at the Winter Meetings

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12-05-2013, 03:18 PM
  #892
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ysports.yahoo.com/news/york-mets-time-acq...The*New York Mets*are optimistic about finalizing a deal with free agent*Curtis Granderson, tweetsJon Heyman of CBS Sports. If Sandy Alderson acquires the outfielder, he'll be able to shift his focus to filling other roster needs at the Winter Meetings
I'm hopeful he can get us both Granderson and Beltran/Cruz.

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12-05-2013, 03:28 PM
  #893
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It's in Spanish, but this ESPN reporter is claiming the Mariners are offering Cano 10 years at $230-240 million. That's insane if it's true.

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news...bei&type=story

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12-05-2013, 03:46 PM
  #894
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Give Cano 24 hours or the offer is gone for good.

Make him prove that he is really willing to play in Seattle. Don't let him play you to get the price up from the Yanks.

24 hours or you will have to find a way to make the Yankees bid against themselves.

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12-05-2013, 03:47 PM
  #895
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Give Cano 24 hours or the offer is gone for good.
That's a solid way to alienate a player you want back.

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12-05-2013, 03:48 PM
  #896
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That's a solid way to alienate a player you want back.
Talking about it from Seattle's perspective.

Yankees have played everything perfectly.

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12-05-2013, 03:50 PM
  #897
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Talking about it from Seattle's perspective.

Yankees have played everything perfectly.
Signed a far inferior player for almost the same money you had budgeted for Cano.

Perfect play.

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12-05-2013, 03:53 PM
  #898
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Signed a far inferior player for almost the same money you had budgeted for Cano.

Perfect play.
That doesn't matter. I'm talking about refusing to improve their offer on Cano when there was no one else to bid against them. I don't think they would have signed Elsbury if it meant they couldn't up their offer for Cano (if needed, up until now.. there was no need at all to increase the offer by a cent)

Now Seattle appears to be a player, but does he really want to go to that team and ballpark? If you're Seattle you have to be wondering that, force his hand now. Make him sign it now, or its the Yankees alone and their offer won't have to increase.

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12-05-2013, 04:13 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
It's in Spanish, but this ESPN reporter is claiming the Mariners are offering Cano 10 years at $230-240 million. That's insane if it's true.

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news...bei&type=story
Have fun in Seattle.

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12-05-2013, 04:19 PM
  #900
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That doesn't matter. I'm talking about refusing to improve their offer on Cano when there was no one else to bid against them. I don't think they would have signed Elsbury if it meant they couldn't up their offer for Cano (if needed, up until now.. there was no need at all to increase the offer by a cent)

Now Seattle appears to be a player, but does he really want to go to that team and ballpark? If you're Seattle you have to be wondering that, force his hand now. Make him sign it now, or its the Yankees alone and their offer won't have to increase.
Oh please, this whole thing stinks to high heaven. I find it hard to believe the Mariners are going 3 years and $70M over the highest reported offer.

The whole thing is a game - a game thats been poorly played by Cano's novice agents, by the way.

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