HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

NFL Attendance drop 5 years in a row

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-08-2013, 11:51 PM
  #76
Kimota
Nation of Poutine
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 22,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
I'd like to see some examples of this 'done better' broadcast you've seen. The TV product today is the best it has ever been.
I disagree. It's pretty much the same thing it's always have been. The same placement of cameras for example.

I saw a game on ESPN Classic Canada the other day and the cameras were so close to the ice that it felt like we were on the ice with the players. It was pretty unique. I don't understand why the NHL did not adopt that across the board.

Kimota is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 12:05 AM
  #77
IU Hawks fan
They call me IU
 
IU Hawks fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: No longer IU
Country: United States
Posts: 19,608
vCash: 50
The same it's always been? Maybe if you think granny 70's camera work looks the same as the HD picture of today.

I wouldn't want a zoomed in look, I like being able to see a lot of the ice at once.

IU Hawks fan is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 12:06 AM
  #78
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I disagree. It's pretty much the same thing it's always have been. The same placement of cameras for example.

I saw a game on ESPN Classic Canada the other day and the cameras were so close to the ice that it felt like we were on the ice with the players. It was pretty unique. I don't understand why the NHL did not adopt that across the board.
I remember the lower camera angle being tested for a while in the mid-90s. Few people seemed to like it. While getting a better feel for the speed of the game, I'd rather see more of the ice surface. Most of the time I'm not watching the puck anyway.

But NFL and NHL are opposites in this way, AFAIC. NFL is the best suited sport for television and worst for live. NHL is best for live but worst for TV.

Tawnos is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 12:37 AM
  #79
knorthern knight
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: GTA
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,209
vCash: 50
When was it that the NFL was bragging about how every team could make a profit even if not a single fan showed up to any games during an entire season? That's the difference between the NFL and the NHL. In the NHL, a partially full arena is a killer.

knorthern knight is online now  
Old
12-09-2013, 09:03 AM
  #80
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 34,420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCSPounder View Post
I started following @EmptySeatsPics in the last couple weeks. For as much as you want to rag on the NFL, be careful, there's more than a fair share of NHL game pics that get uploaded and retweeted.
That's just it, though -- everyone gets that the NHL sometimes plays to half-empty arenas. The common fallacy in hockey circles is that those empty seats represent a hopeless lack of American interest in hockey as a sport. But nobody would say the same about football or basketball. Just look at this thread. It was bad weather, it was a crappy team, the stadium is inconvenient. Totally reasonable explanations for why someone would pass on buying a ticket, but those "excuses" won't fly in a conversation about the NHL.

Now granted, as a gate-driven league the NHL is more under the gun to fill seats. One of the big stories of the past decade is their move to NBC and Rogers, to help alleviate that pressure. Gate receipts are still an issue -- but it's not an "Americans hate hockey" issue, as is often the hasty conclusion among hockey pundits.

tarheelhockey is online now  
Old
12-09-2013, 10:21 AM
  #81
cutchemist42
Registered User
 
cutchemist42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,361
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That's just it, though -- everyone gets that the NHL sometimes plays to half-empty arenas. The common fallacy in hockey circles is that those empty seats represent a hopeless lack of American interest in hockey as a sport. But nobody would say the same about football or basketball. Just look at this thread. It was bad weather, it was a crappy team, the stadium is inconvenient. Totally reasonable explanations for why someone would pass on buying a ticket, but those "excuses" won't fly in a conversation about the NHL.

Now granted, as a gate-driven league the NHL is more under the gun to fill seats. One of the big stories of the past decade is their move to NBC and Rogers, to help alleviate that pressure. Gate receipts are still an issue -- but it's not an "Americans hate hockey" issue, as is often the hasty conclusion among hockey pundits.
No one would make that argument about football because the tv numbers easily back it up.

It's also like CFL ratings in Southern Ontario lately; no one shows up for those games but people are watching.

cutchemist42 is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 10:59 AM
  #82
berklon
Registered User
 
berklon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 858
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That's just it, though -- everyone gets that the NHL sometimes plays to half-empty arenas. The common fallacy in hockey circles is that those empty seats represent a hopeless lack of American interest in hockey as a sport. But nobody would say the same about football or basketball. Just look at this thread. It was bad weather, it was a crappy team, the stadium is inconvenient. Totally reasonable explanations for why someone would pass on buying a ticket, but those "excuses" won't fly in a conversation about the NHL.

Now granted, as a gate-driven league the NHL is more under the gun to fill seats. One of the big stories of the past decade is their move to NBC and Rogers, to help alleviate that pressure. Gate receipts are still an issue -- but it's not an "Americans hate hockey" issue, as is often the hasty conclusion among hockey pundits.
Except that people in the US generally aren't watching the NHL on TV, while the NFL TV numbers are huge. Just look at the Stanley Cup finals numbers... they don't compare to the other sports.

NHL half-filled arenas + terrible national TV numbers = lack of interest in hockey. (2 negatives don't make a positive here).

berklon is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 11:23 AM
  #83
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 34,420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
No one would make that argument about football because the tv numbers easily back it up.
I'd be curious to see the local TV ratings for NFL games in, say, Jacksonville or Washington right now. They'll still be high compared to the NHL (or anything else in the sports landscape) but I'll bet that the local teams are struggling to pull the same numbers as out-of-market marquee games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berklon View Post
Except that people in the US generally aren't watching the NHL on TV, while the NFL TV numbers are huge. Just look at the Stanley Cup finals numbers... they don't compare to the other sports.
They don't compare to which other sports? The NHL might be the smallest of the Big Four, but it is still IN the Big Four which says something about its popularity. Soccer still hasn't caught up, and both the PGA and NASCAR have dropped back to Cup Finals type numbers without having anything comparable to the NHL's regular season market penetration. I don't think anyone would make the argument that Americans don't care about golf, auto racing or soccer. Hockey ranks somewhere between those sports and the football/baseball/basketball trio.

tarheelhockey is online now  
Old
12-09-2013, 11:43 AM
  #84
patnyrnyg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Having say in the upper bowl at NFL games, I will say this: I will NEVER go to an NFL game ever again unless I'm close to the field. The experience is a million times better on TV at home. I'm guessing I'm not alone and this plays a huge factor.
I disagree, completely. I would much rather sit in the upper deck as you get a much better view of the play. Yes, I have sat in the lower deck for NFL games.

patnyrnyg is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 11:48 AM
  #85
IU Hawks fan
They call me IU
 
IU Hawks fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: No longer IU
Country: United States
Posts: 19,608
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'd be curious to see the local TV ratings for NFL games in, say, Jacksonville or Washington right now. They'll still be high compared to the NHL (or anything else in the sports landscape) but I'll bet that the local teams are struggling to pull the same numbers as out-of-market marquee games.
DC:

KC/WAS - 20.7
MIN/BAL - 12.3
SEA/SF - 18.6
CAR/NO - 12.2

JAX:
Thursday JAX/HOU: 22.2 (NFLN and local WJXT combined)
ATL/GB: 6.2
SEA/SF: 15.2
MIA/PIT: 10.2
CAR/NO: 12.4

Local teams will always win in the NFL.

IU Hawks fan is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 12:29 PM
  #86
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,204
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
I disagree, completely. I would much rather sit in the upper deck as you get a much better view of the play. Yes, I have sat in the lower deck for NFL games.
Well, given that I find TV to be better than attending, the live game isn't really about the quality of the view, but rather the intimacy of the experience. Upper deck is too cut off.

Tawnos is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 01:32 PM
  #87
S E P H
@Krzysztof_WHL
 
S E P H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Avs Country!
Country: Poland
Posts: 5,180
vCash: 500
I keep reading a lot of excuses in this thread.

For a sport as popular as throwball is, that picture of Washington is pretty embarrassing.

S E P H is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 01:36 PM
  #88
AdmiralsFan24
Registered User
 
AdmiralsFan24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Country: United States
Posts: 5,330
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to AdmiralsFan24
Except it was taken during halftime, while people are still in the concourses and they were losing by 28. Not many people are going to stick around in that weather, with the team playing that badly.

AdmiralsFan24 is online now  
Old
12-09-2013, 01:51 PM
  #89
Llama19
Registered User
 
Llama19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Outside GZ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,556
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
Except it was taken during halftime, while people are still in the concourses and they were losing by 28. Not many people are going to stick around in that weather, with the team playing that badly.
12-08-13 Game - Chiefs vs Redskins - Official attendance: 56,247
Capacity: 85,000* / 79,000#

Sources: http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=331208028

* http://espn.go.com/travel/stadium/_/s/nfl/id/28

# http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...8brS_blog.html


Last edited by Llama19: 12-09-2013 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Better source on seating capacity reduction
Llama19 is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 02:00 PM
  #90
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 34,420
vCash: 500
This is how it looked at the beginning of the game:



Again, I'm not even bashing on the NFL for this. I'm just saying, people have good reasons for not showing up. Claiming that the Redskins don't have fans would be ludicrous, but we do that stuff all the time with other teams.

tarheelhockey is online now  
Old
12-09-2013, 02:06 PM
  #91
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'd be curious to see the local TV ratings for NFL games in, say, Jacksonville or Washington right now. They'll still be high compared to the NHL (or anything else in the sports landscape) but I'll bet that the local teams are struggling to pull the same numbers as out-of-market marquee games.



They don't compare to which other sports? The NHL might be the smallest of the Big Four, but it is still IN the Big Four which says something about its popularity. Soccer still hasn't caught up, and both the PGA and NASCAR have dropped back to Cup Finals type numbers without having anything comparable to the NHL's regular season market penetration. I don't think anyone would make the argument that Americans don't care about golf, auto racing or soccer. Hockey ranks somewhere between those sports and the football/baseball/basketball trio.
The NHL is part of the big four by default. No sport has overtaken it despite its incompetence. All of those sports you mentioned are niche.

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 02:10 PM
  #92
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 34,420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The NHL is part of the big four by default. No sport has overtaken it despite its incompetence. All of those sports you mentioned are niche.
Well, what does it say about the NHL that it can be incompetent and still not be overtaken? There has to be SOME support for it, or it would have slipped off the radar long ago.

And I don't see why soccer would be considered a "niche" sport.

tarheelhockey is online now  
Old
12-09-2013, 02:20 PM
  #93
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Well, what does it say about the NHL that it can be incompetent and still not be overtaken? There has to be SOME support for it, or it would have slipped off the radar long ago.

And I don't see why soccer would be considered a "niche" sport.
For the same reason the NHL is: poor management. How can the US have such a drop off after age 10 for most people when Australia is relatively good following among adultsa and it not the major sport over there either?

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 02:47 PM
  #94
IU Hawks fan
They call me IU
 
IU Hawks fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: No longer IU
Country: United States
Posts: 19,608
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
And I don't see why soccer would be considered a "niche" sport.
In the US, how would it not be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The NHL is part of the big four by default. No sport has overtaken it despite its incompetence. All of those sports you mentioned are niche.
It's 'big four' because it isn't that far behind the NBA in terms of revenue. MLB and NFL dwarf what the NBA makes, so you can't have the Big 3 because 1 just doesn't belong. It's either 'big 2' or 'big 4'.

IU Hawks fan is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 03:00 PM
  #95
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,267
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
For the same reason the NHL is: poor management. How can the US have such a drop off after age 10 for most people when Australia is relatively good following among adults and it not the major sport over there either?
It's more of a case that those kids 10 and under are playing soccer not watching it. It's a fun sport to play, a cure for insomnia to watch. As kids start getting older and developing a sense of what they like to watch for entertainment they start playing the sports that they watch.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 04:38 PM
  #96
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 34,420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
For the same reason the NHL is: poor management. How can the US have such a drop off after age 10 for most people when Australia is relatively good following among adultsa and it not the major sport over there either?
Soccer is a sport, not a league. It is not "managed". People just don't like to watch it, and apparently don't like to play it after childhood. There are other options out there.

You can say MLS is mismanaged, but soccer is a different thing altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
In the US, how would it not be?
Because it's the second largest participant sport after baseball? I'd think that exceeds the definition of "niche sport".

tarheelhockey is online now  
Old
12-09-2013, 04:43 PM
  #97
AmericanDream
Puck You
 
AmericanDream's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: I Return to Serenity
Country: United States
Posts: 9,633
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That's just it, though -- everyone gets that the NHL sometimes plays to half-empty arenas. The common fallacy in hockey circles is that those empty seats represent a hopeless lack of American interest in hockey as a sport. But nobody would say the same about football or basketball. Just look at this thread. It was bad weather, it was a crappy team, the stadium is inconvenient. Totally reasonable explanations for why someone would pass on buying a ticket, but those "excuses" won't fly in a conversation about the NHL.

Now granted, as a gate-driven league the NHL is more under the gun to fill seats. One of the big stories of the past decade is their move to NBC and Rogers, to help alleviate that pressure. Gate receipts are still an issue -- but it's not an "Americans hate hockey" issue, as is often the hasty conclusion among hockey pundits.
Agreed.

during an 82 game season, this is much more expected for hockey.

when you talk about a 16 game season where once every week should be considered an event, there is a big difference. If fans cannot come out to their home teams games 8 times in a season then I do think there is a serious issue there regardless of what excuses gets thrown out.

the Hawks sell out 41 games a season, as do other teams as well, a more impressive feat in my mind.

AmericanDream is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 05:23 PM
  #98
IU Hawks fan
They call me IU
 
IU Hawks fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: No longer IU
Country: United States
Posts: 19,608
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post

Because it's the second largest participant sport after baseball? I'd think that exceeds the definition of "niche sport".
Oh come on. It's clearly a niche spectator sport, don't try to fudge that based off participation. The championship game of our national league just drew a 0.5 nationally. How is that not a niche sport?

What's next? Bowling isn't a niche sport because of participation numbers?

IU Hawks fan is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 06:28 PM
  #99
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
In the US, how would it not be?
Agreed, and soccer is good so its a shame.


It's 'big four' because it isn't that far behind the NBA in terms of revenue. MLB and NFL dwarf what the NBA makes, so you can't have the Big 3 because 1 just doesn't belong. It's either 'big 2' or 'big 4'.[/QUOTE]

Not that far? The NBA has over 5.3 billion, and baseall has 7.5 billion. So if you want to do that there is a big one. And hockey doesn't have the major tv contract either(nbc is a pittance), and that's not the accepted definition in popular culture, its the big 3 or 4, so no dice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
It's more of a case that those kids 10 and under are playing soccer not watching it. It's a fun sport to play, a cure for insomnia to watch. As kids start getting older and developing a sense of what they like to watch for entertainment they start playing the sports that they watch.
But are kids so different in America then anywhere else? Why the drop off here in America

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Soccer is a sport, not a league. It is not "managed". People just don't like to watch it, and apparently don't like to play it after childhood. There are other options out there.

You can say MLS is mismanaged, but soccer is a different thing altogether.



Because it's the second largest participant sport after baseball? I'd think that exceeds the definition of "niche sport".

The leaders of US soccer have squandered many opportunities. There is no way a sport with this much youth participation should be behind the NHL but here we are.

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
12-09-2013, 06:49 PM
  #100
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,267
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
But are kids so different in America then anywhere else? Why the drop off here in America
Kids in America have a lot more entertainment options then exists elsewhere. And while that may well be changing elsewhere in the world it still lags behind North America and is nowhere near as entrenched. It is what it is <shrugs>.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:29 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.