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Mon., Dec. 9, 2013|Flyers 4 at Senators 5 (SO)

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Old
12-09-2013, 11:50 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Jake hasn't been anything close to a star player this year. He's skating, sometimes, but not doing much else. It takes a whole line to produce points. Giroux can't be expected to carry two other guts who are playing like crap. There are very few players in the league that are capable of doing that for an entire game, let alone an entire season.

You can hate in Neal and Kunitz all you want, but they would both be our best wingers right now, and they're both capable of doing a lot more than piggy backing the super stars they play with. Hartnell is the definition of a complimentary winger. The only asset he offers to Giroux is his occasionally good shot. He's average to below average in every other facet of the game. Jake has the skill set, but he's pissing it away at this point. I said it last week, but if he doesn't get more consistent, he'll be a Viktor Kozlov-like player in the sense that he's always leaving you wanting more out of him.
What I'm getting at is that if Berube keeps this line in tact further, then they need to change their approach big time, and buy into that approach to play a smarter, more effective game at ES. I never said G needs to carry anyone. All three have played like crap for the majority of this year at ES. And I said Voracek was being a considered a star player prior to the start of this year.

Neal can hold his own (when he's not being a dumbass), but Kunitz is a pure complimentary player. He had a great year last year, but would not have had that year without Crosby.

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12-09-2013, 11:52 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
I must of confused you with another poster then. Apologies. Once again, there are very few, if any, players in the league capable of producing with two under-performing line mates.
Sidney crosby with dupuis and kunitz

Tavares with moulson and okposo

spezza with macarthur and zibenjad/michalek

Thornton with Burns and hertl


those are all centers with two wingers that are inferior to jake and hartnell and they seem to be doing quite fine. The reality is that Giorux may not be in the same class as these centerman.

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12-09-2013, 11:59 PM
  #103
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Sidney crosby with dupuis and kunitz

Tavares with moulson and okposo

spezza with macarthur and zibenjad/michalek

Thornton with Burns and hertl


those are all centers with two wingers that are inferior to jake and hartnell and they seem to be doing quite fine. The reality is that Giorux may not be in the same class as these centerman.
Crosby is the best player in the world. It's your problem if you think Giroux should keep up with him.

Spezza and Tavares produce at similar rates that Giroux does, outside if this year. Every single winger you just listed, outside of Dupuis, is playing better hockey than Hartnell or Voracek this year. Once again, that's going to have a big impact on Giroux's ability to perform.

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12-10-2013, 12:06 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Crosby is the best player in the world. It's your problem if you think Giroux should keep up with him.

Spezza and Tavares produce at similar rates that Giroux does, outside if this year. Every single winger you just listed, outside of Dupuis, is playing better hockey than Hartnell or Voracek this year. Once again, that's going to have a big impact on Giroux's ability to perform.
Spezza does not produce at a similar rate as giroux. He is a career ppg player with over 600 games played. Did you consider that hartnell and voracek are not playing well because Giroux's performance is impacting their game?

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12-10-2013, 12:30 AM
  #105
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I thought Voracek actually had a decent game tonight. But that line definitely needs to be shaken up.

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12-10-2013, 12:37 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Spezza does not produce at a similar rate as giroux. He is a career ppg player with over 600 games played. Did you consider that hartnell and voracek are not playing well because Giroux's performance is impacting their game?
Nope, because I'm neither blind nor retarded and I actually pay attention during the games. If you honestly think that Giroux is the one bringing down Hartnell and Voracek then you need to pay more attention and watch the two of them play. Both of them are playing horrible on their own. They can't win battles along the board, pass, shoot, and they make horrible decisions constantly.

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12-10-2013, 12:45 AM
  #107
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Voracek somehow turned into a stronger Maxim Afinogenov. And Giroux looks like Mike Cammalleri.
That is depressing as ****.

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12-10-2013, 12:45 AM
  #108
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Nope, because I'm neither blind nor retarded and I actually pay attention during the games. If you honestly think that Giroux is the one bringing down Hartnell and Voracek then you need to pay more attention and watch the two of them play. Both of them are playing horrible on their own. They can't win battles along the board, pass, shoot, and they make horrible decisions constantly.
I disagree. I think they are playing as expected.

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12-10-2013, 12:54 AM
  #109
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I'm glad some of you guys got to experience how absolutely horrid Denis Potvin is as a colour commentator.

Just think about it- we have to listen to him every game. Every. Game.

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12-10-2013, 01:16 AM
  #110
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I'm glad some of you guys got to experience how absolutely horrid Denis Potvin is as a colour commentator.

Just think about it- we have to listen to him every game. Every. Game.
I have yet to see an announcer who is hated more by his own fanbase as well as others.

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12-10-2013, 01:26 AM
  #111
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I have yet to see an announcer who is hated more by his own fanbase as well as others.
My remote's mute button is worn out.

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12-10-2013, 01:30 AM
  #112
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My remote's mute button is worn out.
The Philly crew is starting to wear on a lot of us too. Coatsey...man, he's getting bad. I used to like him but I think he's lost a step.

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12-10-2013, 01:34 AM
  #113
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Sidney crosby with dupuis and kunitz

Tavares with moulson and okposo

spezza with macarthur and zibenjad/michalek

Thornton with Burns and hertl


those are all centers with two wingers that are inferior to jake and hartnell and they seem to be doing quite fine. The reality is that Giorux may not be in the same class as these centerman.
Awesome. And even Getzlaf, with Perry and Ryan on his line, had a down year at one point. We are barely a third into the season, and you are giving priority to this stretch over his body of work since the 2010 playoffs. You need to relax. Is it possible Giroux proves to be a 65-75 point center? Sure, but no reason to jump to that conclusion at this point-- or even this April. If he is playing subpar hockey into next season, we can worry.

Until then, this is just an annoying slump.

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12-10-2013, 01:43 AM
  #114
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Awesome. And even Getzlaf, with Perry and Ryan on his line, had a down year at one point. We are barely a third into the season, and you are giving priority to this stretch over his body of work since the 2010 playoffs. You need to relax. Is it possible Giroux proves to be a 65-75 point center? Sure, but no reason to jump to that conclusion at this point-- or even this April. If he is playing subpar hockey into next season, we can worry.

Until then, this is just an annoying slump.
1. The only stretch where giroux showed he was dominant and worthy of his contact was 2011-2012 playoffs included.
2. Since he has regressed to a powerplay specialist, while showing he is incapable of a 200 foot game during ev play.
3. Now that Lavy is gone the problems are really bad. Lavy's up tempo style sure did a lot for girouxs stats. Now that we are playing at a slower pace Giroux doesnt seem suited at all for this team.

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12-10-2013, 02:33 AM
  #115
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Awesome. And even Getzlaf, with Perry and Ryan on his line, had a down year at one point. We are barely a third into the season, and you are giving priority to this stretch over his body of work since the 2010 playoffs. You need to relax. Is it possible Giroux proves to be a 65-75 point center? Sure, but no reason to jump to that conclusion at this point-- or even this April. If he is playing subpar hockey into next season, we can worry.

Until then, this is just an annoying slump.
Those are all also players who weren't playing well below their usual level.

Crosby had a stretch this season where apparently he was still doing enough to rack up points but his linemates were busy blowing.

Hartnell is looking increasingly washed up. Voracek is an enigma. Tonight he looked like last season's Vorasaurus Rex. If he plays like that every game he and Giroux will rack up points, but there's no indication it'll continue.

Hell, last year Voracek was the best forward at driving through the neutral zone into the offensive zone. This is the first game he looked anything like that.

I think Downie would be amazing in Hartnell's spot on that line, but I'm really loathe to break that Couturier line up.

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12-10-2013, 02:39 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
When Vinny comes back he needs to be on G's wing. He desperately needs someone who can shoot.
They have tried Vinny there before and it did not boost Giroux. Vinny is the type of player who creates something on his own - he doesn't even need Giroux to feed him the puck, just a big guy along the boards who can mix it up. The only positive I can see here is that Vinny may draw away some attention from the captain to allow him a little more space out there.

Is there anybody left in the top-9 they haven't tried with G this year except for Couturier? Nothing clicks....so frustrating

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12-10-2013, 02:43 AM
  #117
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1. The only stretch where giroux showed he was dominant and worthy of his contact was 2011-2012 playoffs included.
2. Since he has regressed to a powerplay specialist, while showing he is incapable of a 200 foot game during ev play.
3. Now that Lavy is gone the problems are really bad. Lavy's up tempo style sure did a lot for girouxs stats. Now that we are playing at a slower pace Giroux doesnt seem suited at all for this team.
Did you truly expect Giroux to be a consistent 90+ scorer? If so, that's your problem, not mine.

And don't fall back on the "he's paid to be a 90+ scorer" argument. No, his pay is in line with other consistent PPG players. Just ask yourself how many consistent PPG players there are in the league; there aren't many. Further, there are only four players who are expected to score 90+ per season: Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, and Stamkos. They all get paid more than Giroux with the exception of Stamkos who signed his contract under unusual circumstances and will certainly get his pay day as a UFA.

If he can consistently be between 75-85 points, I will have no problems with Giroux or his contract. He is in the Getzlaf, Perry, Staal class of players; and those players have similar deals.

All those players have experienced slumps. Giroux is in one now, and you have no reason to expect he won't be a PPG player going forward. If you wanted him to be something more, well, again, you should wrestle with your own unreasonable expectations.

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12-10-2013, 04:16 AM
  #118
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It amazes me how strong a player like Downie can be on the puck vs B. Schenn or Giroux under pressure.

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12-10-2013, 04:35 AM
  #119
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Giroux is a non factor because he's an undersized centerman. He needs people to create space for him. Look at how many puck battles he's lost this season. He just doesn't have the strength. On the PP he has space so that's why he can put up those points. On even strength he can't do it. It's not a coincidence that in his career year he played with two big wingers.

Jagr being skilled and Hartnell was playing at the level he was capable of. He needs help from his wingers and he isn't getting it. Hartnell looks a shell of himself and Jake is trying so hard to be like Jagr downlow. It's not his game. He doesn't have that strong base like Jagr. He looks like he's wearing down from all the punishment. That's why he's wincing on the bench after his shift in every other game after trying to battle. Also his skillset just doesn't mesh with Giroux. He's a pass first guy with a lousy shot.

I believe if you want to get the most out of Giroux he needs a pure shooting sniper on his wing. He's a maestro with the puck.

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12-10-2013, 05:22 AM
  #120
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Giroux is a non factor because he's an undersized centerman. He needs people to create space for him. Look at how many puck battles he's lost this season. He just doesn't have the strength. On the PP he has space so that's why he can put up those points. On even strength he can't do it. It's not a coincidence that in his career year he played with two big wingers.

Jagr being skilled and Hartnell was playing at the level he was capable of. He needs help from his wingers and he isn't getting it. Hartnell looks a shell of himself and Jake is trying so hard to be like Jagr downlow. It's not his game. He doesn't have that strong base like Jagr. He looks like he's wearing down from all the punishment. That's why he's wincing on the bench after his shift in every other game after trying to battle. Also his skillset just doesn't mesh with Giroux. He's a pass first guy with a lousy shot.

I believe if you want to get the most out of Giroux he needs a pure shooting sniper on his wing. He's a maestro with the puck.
I thought Voracek was a past first player until last season when he finished on pace for 37 goals, so I think you are selling him short. Voracek is in a massive slump. Hopefully last season was not his career year. I also think Voracek was the catalyst for G turning it around last season and not the other way around.

I will agree that he needs someone to create space for him thought. Voracek was great at even strength last year which created space for G, this year he is not.

Even Strength Points Last Year:

1 Jakub Voracek 29 (14 goals in 48 games)
2 Claude Giroux 26
3 Matt Read 21
4 Wayne Simmonds 16
5 Brayden Schenn 16
6 Kimmo Timonen 12
7 Ruslan Fedotenko12
8 Sean Couturier 11
9 Luke Schenn 11

Even Strength Points This Year:

1 Sean Couturier 13
2 Matt Read 12
3 Brayden Schenn 10
4 Claude Giroux 9
5 Wayne Simmonds 9
6 Jakub Voracek 8 (2 goals in 30 games)
7 Vincent Lecavalier 7
8 Steve Downie 7
9 Scott Hartnell 6

Jagr Year:

1 Claude Giroux 53
2 Scott Hartnell 44
3 Jakub Voracek 38
4 Jaromir Jagr 34
5 Wayne Simmonds 33

Jagr's puck possession was important, but Hartnell's decline is more of an issue after what almost surely was his career season. The really only good winger with puck possession ability on the boards is Downie, but I would not like to see the Downie line broken up. Read's speed could also create space and be more useful than Hartnell (not hard). Basically in the short term, all we can hope for is for Voracek to break out of his slump.

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12-10-2013, 06:29 AM
  #121
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The Philly crew is starting to wear on a lot of us too. Coatsey...man, he's getting bad. I used to like him but I think he's lost a step.
He's not just lost a step...


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12-10-2013, 08:29 AM
  #122
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The defense is old, slow and non-offensive.

The problem is still right there in front of everybody.

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12-10-2013, 08:35 AM
  #123
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Someone hates Steve Downie at NHL.com. (probably not as much as they hate themselves in the last few days.)

No assist on the Kimmo goal, it sure looked like he shovelled it off the wall to him.

They already didnt give him a clear assist earlier on in the year as well.

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12-10-2013, 08:38 AM
  #124
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should of put in scoreacek
He's only half as good at shootouts as Read and Giroux.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/shootoutstats...erCareerTotals

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12-10-2013, 08:43 AM
  #125
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Sidney crosby with dupuis and kunitz

Tavares with moulson and okposo

spezza with macarthur and zibenjad/michalek

Thornton with Burns and hertl


those are all centers with two wingers that are inferior to jake and hartnell and they seem to be doing quite fine. The reality is that Giorux may not be in the same class as these centerman.
I would take all those wingers over the 13-14 versions of Hartnell and Voracek. I don't think they are inferior at all.

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