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General Discussion (Team/Player/Trade Talk/Speculation/News), Part VIII

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Old
12-10-2013, 01:46 PM
  #1051
MichaelJ
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If Larsson to NYI, Strome is the best we could do. Tavares? C'mon.

I'd put Greene and Henrique on the block and see what kind of return is out there.

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12-10-2013, 01:47 PM
  #1052
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Originally Posted by RMBoner Stabone View Post
Larrson is what he is, a young 21 year old which arguably take longer to develop.

They play two positions and what I know about Yakupov is like they are several other young oiler forwards playing on some bad teams. I don't watch a lot of the oilers games, but on the depth chart he's third Rw blocked by Hemsky and Eberle.

It's all a moot point, Larrson is hurt and he's going nowhere.

Again, you will see a trade coming at some point but I doubt you will see the type of trade you are talking about.
I don't see Lou making a bold move like that but that's the type of move I'd like for him to make. Yakupov is a 3rd line RW'er and Larsson is a middle pairing d-men who get's benched when we have a healthy lineup... just like Yakupov at times.

It's a toss up on both sides but would address a glaring need for both teams. The Oilers are looking to add a stud d-man and we're looking to add a stud forward.

What's the big problem with such a proposal, I just don't know.

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12-10-2013, 01:48 PM
  #1053
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I'm not interested in "teaching" Eberle for two seasons before he becomes as productive as he was.

Because that's what happens when you bring in an outside forward to this organization.

AfroThunder makes another good point, which is that a kid like Larsson has been a good soldier. Every time they put BS on his plate, he picks up his fork and dives right in.

These guys who work their way up and don't lose faith - the Greenes, the Clarksons - they tend to reward you. Temporarily, maybe.

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Old
12-10-2013, 01:52 PM
  #1054
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Originally Posted by SteveCangialosi123 View Post
But that would never happen because Larsson hasn't done enough for the Isles to even consider. Can you describe what kind of player you see Larsson becoming and why you feel that will happen? Because I just wanna see where you're coming from.
He has the vision and passing to become a #1 defenseman. His physical play should improve, given he just turned 21 last month. He has exceptional poise, and plays a solid all round game.

His bottom end is Sami Salo. His top end is probably Andre Markov or Kaberle at his best. That's kind of where I'm thinking.

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Old
12-10-2013, 01:55 PM
  #1055
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Originally Posted by LouneyTunes View Post
I'm not interested in "teaching" Eberle for two seasons before he becomes as productive as he was.

Because that's what happens when you bring in an outside forward to this organization.

AfroThunder makes another good point, which is that a kid like Larsson has been a good soldier. Every time they put BS on his plate, he picks up his fork and dives right in.

These guys who work their way up and don't lose faith - the Greenes, the Clarksons - they tend to reward you. Temporarily, maybe.

I think you're right.

What is more:
I'm sure we haven't seen the best of Adam Larsson yet. He hasn't bloomed.
We've seen the best of Jordan Eberle.

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Old
12-10-2013, 01:57 PM
  #1056
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Originally Posted by ThePSEGPowerPoster View Post
Oh I am level headed. I concede all the trades I would accept for Larsson are ostensibly overwhelming in our favor. But those are the deals you trade Larsson in. Because the reason I say ostensibly is because you don't know what Larsson is going to be.
And that right there is why no one will give you a proven player for a young kid with some upside.

You wouldn't do it if the roles were reversed, so it's no different for the 29 other teams as well.

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12-10-2013, 01:59 PM
  #1057
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Larsson for Tavares is pretty insane.

I would take a look at Strome though. I see huge things for that guy, and the Isles cant have 2 1C's forever. well, Pittsburgh can but... you know

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12-10-2013, 02:01 PM
  #1058
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Larrson's upside: all around solid defender somewhere between a Mattias Ohlund and Lidstrom. his downside: aki berg.

Yakupov: upside a two ruble Pavel Bure, his downside KHL.

What is Eberle's upside? does he have another level to hit? is he Olympic material?

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12-10-2013, 02:04 PM
  #1059
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
He has the vision and passing to become a #1 defenseman. His physical play should improve, given he just turned 21 last month. He has exceptional poise, and plays a solid all round game.

His bottom end is Sami Salo. His top end is probably Andre Markov or Kaberle at his best. That's kind of where I'm thinking.
He will probably play at 210-220 pounds in his mid 20s. He's just a baby playing in a system which has restricted his offensive instincts.

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12-10-2013, 02:08 PM
  #1060
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
1.) Defensemen are more valuable than forwards by default.

2.) Forwards peak in their early 20's, defensemen don't peak until their late 20's/early 30's (Eberle will likely never top 76 points again, he was shooting at 19% that year).

3.) Compared to defensemen his age, Adam Larsson is light years ahead of his peers in areas like positioning, outlet passing, gap control, lane disruption, anticipation, poise and calmness.

He certainly has deficiencies in his game but the areas listed above are generally some of the last skills defensemen learn and he has mastery over them at a remarkably young age. He's already learned all the hard stuff there is for a defenseman to learn and is beyond his years defensively.

4.) Eberle and Yakupov are one dimensional and have only shown to produce in specific scenarios where they receive sheltered minutes, they're unlikely to fit on this Devils team as it's currently constructed. Larsson has evolved his game the past few years and has shown he can play nearly any role asked of him.

5.) Experienced defensemen on ELC's/RFA age almost NEVER come on the market unless there's something wrong with them. When they do hit the market they're extraordinarily hot commodities.

6.) Larsson has SHOWN he wants to play here. He took less money on his ELC and forfeited bonuses because he wanted to play on the roster immediately. He's sat through the scratches. He's played ugly PK minutes. He's gotten himself hurt trying to make the plays he was told to make. He's changed his game so that he could be a New Jersey Devils defensemen, and he's done it with the kind of attitude I want players on my team to have.

And now that he's finally starting to blossom into fine young defenseman, you want to trade him for a guy who refuses to play defense, expects to be handed top-6 shifts without having to earn them, tries to go coast to coast every game, shows a sour attitude when things don't go his way, and just generally hates structured hockey? Or a guy that spends his unlimited PP minutes playing soft pond hockey while his elite linemates do the heavy lifting, feeding him flawless passes every time?
I don't really buy Yakupov wanting more ice time when he was handed around 12-18 minutes a game, that's enough ice time to to show your worth and he did nothing with them.

Instead he's been a defensive liability giving up the most goals when he's on the ice out of any other Oiler player.

I looked up Yakupov's ice time, he complained about getting 5-9 minutes of ice time a game. There's not a single game where he went under 10 minutes of ice time. His lowest being 10:46 and he's been under 11 minutes of ice time twice this season only.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...32014&view=log

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12-10-2013, 02:12 PM
  #1061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
1.) Defensemen are more valuable than forwards by default.

2.) Forwards peak in their early 20's, defensemen don't peak until their late 20's/early 30's (Eberle will likely never top 76 points again, he was shooting at 19% that year).

3.) Compared to defensemen his age, Adam Larsson is light years ahead of his peers in areas like positioning, outlet passing, gap control, lane disruption, anticipation, poise and calmness.

He certainly has deficiencies in his game but the areas listed above are generally some of the last skills defensemen learn and he has mastery over them at a remarkably young age. He's already learned all the hard stuff there is for a defenseman to learn and is beyond his years defensively.

4.) Eberle and Yakupov are one dimensional and have only shown to produce in specific scenarios where they receive sheltered minutes, they're unlikely to fit on this Devils team as it's currently constructed. Larsson has evolved his game the past few years and has shown he can play nearly any role asked of him.

5.) Experienced defensemen on ELC's/RFA age almost NEVER come on the market unless there's something wrong with them. When they do hit the market they're extraordinarily hot commodities.

6.) Larsson has SHOWN he wants to play here. He took less money on his ELC and forfeited bonuses because he wanted to play on the roster immediately. He's sat through the scratches. He's played ugly PK minutes. He's gotten himself hurt trying to make the plays he was told to make. He's changed his game so that he could be a New Jersey Devils defensemen, and he's done it with the kind of attitude I want players on my team to have.

And now that he's finally starting to blossom into fine young defenseman, you want to trade him for a guy who refuses to play defense, expects to be handed top-6 shifts without having to earn them, tries to go coast to coast every game, shows a sour attitude when things don't go his way, and just generally hates structured hockey? Or a guy that spends his unlimited PP minutes playing soft pond hockey while his elite linemates do the heavy lifting, feeding him flawless passes every time?
This hit all the perfect points, it should be then end of this (IMO) stupid discussion.

Trading Larrson for anything less then a proven NHL forward is just dumb.

Larrson is 21 y/o and as was said above has the D end of his game down very well, much better then most other 21 y/o do.

If we start talking about a proven player someone who will be here long term and Larrson becomes a part of that package i might listen. But not for any of the Oliers players discussed. They are not what we need. We dont need someone who could burn out just as easily as becoming a star. Larrson is a middle pairing Dman NOW!!! Some wouldnt even put Yak on a 2nd line! I would rather have Larrson remain the player he is now then run the risk of losing Larrson and have Yak flame out and be nothing. PROVEN PIECES is what you move a 21 y/o Dman like Larrson not possibilities.

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Old
12-10-2013, 02:15 PM
  #1062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
He has the vision and passing to become a #1 defenseman. His physical play should improve, given he just turned 21 last month. He has exceptional poise, and plays a solid all round game.

His bottom end is Sami Salo. His top end is probably Andre Markov or Kaberle at his best. That's kind of where I'm thinking.
I don't see the offense though. Markov is a premier offensive defenseman. Kaberle was back in the day too. Salo was a damn good player so I don't see that as his low end.

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Old
12-10-2013, 02:18 PM
  #1063
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eberle gets 76 points, isn't a proven nhl player...ooookkkkaaayyy....

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Old
12-10-2013, 02:19 PM
  #1064
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Originally Posted by Devil X View Post
This hit all the perfect points, it should be then end of this (IMO) stupid discussion.

Trading Larrson for anything less then a proven NHL forward is just dumb.

Larrson is 21 y/o and as was said above has the D end of his game down very well, much better then most other 21 y/o do.

If we start talking about a proven player someone who will be here long term and Larrson becomes a part of that package i might listen. But not for any of the Oliers players discussed. They are not what we need. We dont need someone who could burn out just as easily as becoming a star. Larrson is a middle pairing Dman NOW!!! Some wouldnt even put Yak on a 2nd line! I would rather have Larrson remain the player he is now then run the risk of losing Larrson and have Yak flame out and be nothing. PROVEN PIECES is what you move a 21 y/o Dman like Larrson not possibilities.
Posters with the same comment you just made aren't in touch with reality when making a trade at the NHL level.

Name me one sane Gm who would trade a proven stud who isn't about to bolt via free agency for a prospect with some potential? I want you or any other poster that's living in a fantasy world to name me one trade where a team forked forward a stud who isn't about to hit UFA status for a unproven player.

If there's one example that is borderline comparable to what you and several other posters are expecting from such a move, I'll turn the page and acknowledge "defeat" but I don't think you'll be able to find anything.

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