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Steve Mason wants ''Carey Price money''

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Old
12-10-2013, 04:10 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
What you do is wait till after this season then give him a contract that fairly reflects his performances and RFA status.
That's a nice thought but it is easier said than done.

What do you think he would have signed for if they waited? I'd be surprised if he signed the same length for much less money even if he had a bad season.

Sure, maybe he takes less money, but probably at much less term, meaning we risk losing him as a UFA or paying even more down the road. Or what if he goes unsigned and has a great year this year, better or the same as his prior career best, then you are paying more (or someone offer sheets him).

Giroux is your best player and captain. You give him pretty much whatever he wants. If not, someone else will.

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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
He was an RFA. He had no chance to walk.
He was also greatly overperforming and therefore signed to early.
There was literally no pressure at all to get this done from the organizations point of view. Same thing that happened with Kimo's extension, except the overperforming part. He already started to suck back then.
Same as above. What do you think he would have signed for if he still was unsigned? He had one year of RFA eligibility, that's not going to keep him here long term. He'll ask for a shorter deal and then we are in a potentially worse scenario a couple years from now.


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It's too long. It was too long back then.
This organization (I'm not singling out Homer here) hasn't understood that under the new CBA you can't circumvent the cap. You have to pay up for your NHL talent and work in cheap young players on ELC's. There is no other way of building a good team, other than getting lucky with UFA signings that somehow overperform.
How long should it have been? Four years would have been ok with you? Do you think that maybe he would have asked for money if he wanted four years (I'll give you a hint, he would have)? Would you have been ok with Hartnell at $5.5-$6.5 for four years? Three? Two? Do you think he would have signed for $4.75 for three years? Four? Or do you think, maybe, possibly, these things came up in discussions and Hartnell said I'll take less money per year for more job security?

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12-10-2013, 04:18 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
What you do is wait till after this season then give him a contract that fairly reflects his performances and RFA status.
Exactly. There was zero upside to extending him early.

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12-10-2013, 05:20 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Same as above. What do you think he would have signed for if he still was unsigned? He had one year of RFA eligibility, that's not going to keep him here long term. He'll ask for a shorter deal and then we are in a potentially worse scenario a couple years from now.
The best player in the world makes $8.7m per year.
Giroux will make $0.425m less per year.
So really, there wasn't any reason to think this would get a lot higher. The upside for cap savings were far greater than the risks of having to pay even more.
Giroux had no reason to leave, even if negotiations would've started this season.
What do you think we could sign him for right now? I don't think we'd have to go over $7.5m per.


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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
How long should it have been? Four years would have been ok with you? Do you think that maybe he would have asked for money if he wanted four years (I'll give you a hint, he would have)? Would you have been ok with Hartnell at $5.5-$6.5 for four years? Three? Two? Do you think he would have signed for $4.75 for three years? Four? Or do you think, maybe, possibly, these things came up in discussions and Hartnell said I'll take less money per year for more job security?
Thanks for the hint.
You also don't have to explain to me how contracts in this sport work.
Hartnell is signed for $28.5m over six years. Don't really think $25m over 5 years or $22m over four years would've been infisible.
Hartnell is going to be a fourth line in 3 years. His kind of game tends to wear you down quick and he's in the league for a long time already. We are stuck with him. With a four year contract the chance to trade him increases dramatically.

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12-10-2013, 06:59 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
The best player in the world makes $8.7m per year.
Giroux will make $0.425m less per year.
So really, there wasn't any reason to think this would get a lot higher. The upside for cap savings were far greater than the risks of having to pay even more.
Giroux had no reason to leave, even if negotiations would've started this season.
What do you think we could sign him for right now? I don't think we'd have to go over $7.5m per.
So you're mad that Homer might have overpaid the captain and face of the franchise by a couple hundred thousand. There's just no pleasing some people. He avoided having Giroux contract issues surround the team, he avoided having the potential for an offer sheet, he avoided the potential of Giroux having an even better year and have the asking price go higher. But he overpaid in your estimation by $725k for the captain and best player on the team. Fair enough.

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Thanks for the hint.
You also don't have to explain to me how contracts in this sport work.
Hartnell is signed for $28.5m over six years. Don't really think $25m over 5 years or $22m over four years would've been infisible.
Hartnell is going to be a fourth line in 3 years. His kind of game tends to wear you down quick and he's in the league for a long time already. We are stuck with him. With a four year contract the chance to trade him increases dramatically.
I'm sure it would have been feasible to sign him to a higher cap hit for shorter term. I didn't say it wasn't. I'm just saying that you'd have him for potentially $5+ million per year instead of the $4.75 million. You're upset that Giroux got $725k too much, but you'd be ok with Hartnell making roughly the same amount more if it meant one or two year less?

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12-10-2013, 07:01 PM
  #55
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The Flyers should do nothing until the season ends. One reason Mason might be playing well is because he knows his career is on the line. Even then, it shouldn't be more than one or two years, we need to keep flexibility at the position, and guard against regression.

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12-10-2013, 07:39 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
If he keeps playing like he has until now you are looking closer at $6m than at $4m per.
The cap rising won't be lost on his agent.
6 million puts him in the top 6 paid goalies for next year.(not including free agents) That is way too high for Mason.

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12-10-2013, 10:55 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
This hasn't stopped the Rangers to give Lundqvist $8.5m per year until he's a senior citizen. Less recently neither the Canadiens, the Bruins nor the Coyotes were able to turn that argument into a cap benefit.
Oh btw, not only the Oilers but also the Panthers, Islanders, Capitals, Wild, Jets and Flames would probably like to get their hands on Mason.
Let's not pretend that Mason is Lundqvist, Price, Rask or even Smith. He's got a way to go to be considered in that level.

And your list of teams proves my point. I'm not going to look up their contracts, but the Jets, Caps and Wild have goalies as good as Mason now. Is he really going to want to go to Edmonton, FLA, NYI or Calgary? Unlikely.

Offer him 4 years at $4MM, settle a bit higher. Done.

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12-11-2013, 01:49 AM
  #58
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As soon as he signs the reported big deal Mason will start to crap the bed.

He was standing on his head since joining the Flyers because expectations were low and he was signed to a bargain contract. Talent was never an issue with Mason, but pressure and a bloated contract were tearing him down in Columbus.

Homer needs to hold out until the end of the season to increase the sample size and at least see how he recovers after a bad streak and we all know that such a streak of weak goals and odd bounces will happen sooner or later because it's part of the game...

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12-11-2013, 02:11 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So you're mad that Homer might have overpaid the captain and face of the franchise by a couple hundred thousand. There's just no pleasing some people. He avoided having Giroux contract issues surround the team, he avoided having the potential for an offer sheet, he avoided the potential of Giroux having an even better year and have the asking price go higher. But he overpaid in your estimation by $725k for the captain and best player on the team. Fair enough.
$725k is one fourth line player.
More importantly if you add up all overpayments (Streit, Timonen) you end up with a little fortune. Which you could spend on signing older players to shorter contracts (see below).

Oh btw. I said we won't go higher than $7.5m. At this point I'd say Giroux would actually land closer to $7m than to $7.5m.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm sure it would have been feasible to sign him to a higher cap hit for shorter term. I didn't say it wasn't. I'm just saying that you'd have him for potentially $5+ million per year instead of the $4.75 million. You're upset that Giroux got $725k too much, but you'd be ok with Hartnell making roughly the same amount more if it meant one or two year less?
See above.
Older players, which Hartnell definately was when signed (especially considering the milage he already has and the way he plays) hurt you more down the road with longer contract with smaller cap hits than they would with larger cap hits and shorter contracts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
6 million puts him in the top 6 paid goalies for next year.(not including free agents) That is way too high for Mason.
I said closer to.
Mason won't get $6m, but I wouldn't be shocked to see him getting between $5m and $5.5m, which is closer to $6m than to $4m.



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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Let's not pretend that Mason is Lundqvist, Price, Rask or even Smith. He's got a way to go to be considered in that level.

And your list of teams proves my point. I'm not going to look up their contracts, but the Jets, Caps and Wild have goalies as good as Mason now. Is he really going to want to go to Edmonton, FLA, NYI or Calgary? Unlikely.

Offer him 4 years at $4MM, settle a bit higher. Done.
Never have I put him into this class, but on their particular salary level not one team could bargain their recently signed goaltender too much. That was my point.

Pavalec was one of the worst starters in the league the last couple of years. He will give you decent goaltending, but is inconsistent. No where near the level of Mason right now.
Neither Neuvirth nor Holtby are as good as Mason. While a small one, Mason still would be an upgrade.
Ok, I thought Backstrom was a UFA. Wild are nonsense.
I don't know if he wants to go their, but he can use them as leverage. Also the NYI would be an interesting team. He's only 25 years old, so joining a rebuilding team (if they pay him dearly) wouldn't be catastrophic for him.


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12-11-2013, 07:45 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
$725k is one fourth line player.
More importantly if you add up all overpayments (Streit, Timonen) you end up with a little fortune. Which you could spend on signing older players to shorter contracts (see below).
Streit I don't really think is an overpayment, maybe a year too many, but the money is right around where guys of his caliber are going to get paid.

Quote:
Oh btw. I said we won't go higher than $7.5m. At this point I'd say Giroux would actually land closer to $7m than to $7.5m.
And you think he still would have signed for the long term? You don't think he would have wanted a shorter contract at that rate to try to get more money in the next one?


Quote:
See above.
Older players, which Hartnell definately was when signed (especially considering the milage he already has and the way he plays) hurt you more down the road with longer contract with smaller cap hits than they would with larger cap hits and shorter contracts.
To begin, I don't know that I would call a 30 year old an "older player." If anything, the mileage Hartnell has is what is going to get him the extra years/money. The guy has been a lock for 20-30 goals for the last decade or so. He was our leading scorer. If he wants to stay here long term at a discounted rate (which I think we can all agree it was...I think even the NHLPA was upset with him for taking the deal), you jump at it. Otherwise, you are going to be paying a lot more. Isn't that what you are complaining about with Giroux? That the extra million or so is wasted? But its ok to pay that to Hartnell because in that last year he might be overpaid at that point?

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12-11-2013, 08:37 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Exactly. There was zero upside to extending him early.
Unfortunately the Flyers lack patience....

Mason has been doing extremely well but remains to be seen whether it is sustainable. I do think he has extra focus because his career was at a crossroads.

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12-11-2013, 11:08 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Never have I put him into this class, but on their particular salary level not one team could bargain their recently signed goaltender too much. That was my point.

Pavalec was one of the worst starters in the league the last couple of years. He will give you decent goaltending, but is inconsistent. No where near the level of Mason right now.
Neither Neuvirth nor Holtby are as good as Mason. While a small one, Mason still would be an upgrade.
Ok, I thought Backstrom was a UFA. Wild are nonsense.
I don't know if he wants to go their, but he can use them as leverage. Also the NYI would be an interesting team. He's only 25 years old, so joining a rebuilding team (if they pay him dearly) wouldn't be catastrophic for him.
Fair enough, I guesss the leverage thing works both ways. If Mason asks to much, Homer can let him walk and sign someone else for next year.

I think both sides will end up agreeing that the best thing is to keep Steve in Philly with a 4-5 yr deal in the $4.5 - $5.5MM/yr range.

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12-11-2013, 12:27 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Unfortunately the Flyers lack patience....

Mason has been doing extremely well but remains to be seen whether it is sustainable. I do think he has extra focus because his career was at a crossroads.
Hopefully Hextall is keeping an eye on Mason, which I'm sure he is and can add some of his goalie knowledge to Homer when it comes to resigning Mason. I too agree that 6mil a year is way too much for Mason. He should be at 4/4.5mil range for 2 to 3 years, that would be reasonable and at the end of his contract he will be a UFA and can ask for more money if he's worthy.

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12-11-2013, 05:12 PM
  #64
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While "Price money" sounds absurd because of the comparison, Mason is pretty comparable to guys like Smith, Bobrovsky, and Crawford, all of whom got paid.


Realistically we should expect somewhere between 5.5-6m and 4-6 yrs. We're not going to get <5m in this market even if the cap wasn't rising.

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12-11-2013, 06:00 PM
  #65
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The Flyers should do nothing until the season ends. One reason Mason might be playing well is because he knows his career is on the line. Even then, it shouldn't be more than one or two years, we need to keep flexibility at the position, and guard against regression.
That's especially true with goalies in general.

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12-12-2013, 09:38 AM
  #66
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Btw, last 3 games...

DEC 11 '13 PHI @ CHI 1 5 4 .800 0 0 18:55
DEC 09 '13 PHI @ OTT 4 34 30 .882 0 0 65:00
DEC 07 '13 PHI @ DAL 4 26 22 .846 0 0 40:00

Really hope this doesn't continue with him. At least if it does, he won't be getting Carey Price money!

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12-12-2013, 09:43 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
Btw, last 3 games...

DEC 11 '13 PHI @ CHI 1 5 4 .800 0 0 18:55
DEC 09 '13 PHI @ OTT 4 34 30 .882 0 0 65:00
DEC 07 '13 PHI @ DAL 4 26 22 .846 0 0 40:00

Really hope this doesn't continue with him. At least if it does, he won't be getting Carey Price money!
I wouldn't worry too much about it. The Ottawa game he played pretty well, goals are going to get scored no matter who the goalie is sometimes. Last night he was coming off the bench, can't really put too much stock into that.

Of course, I don't necessarily know if his earlier form will hold up, but I also don't expect it to drop off to this being the norm. Just a rough stretch.

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12-12-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
While "Price money" sounds absurd because of the comparison, Mason is pretty comparable to guys like Smith, Bobrovsky, and Crawford, all of whom got paid.


Realistically we should expect somewhere between 5.5-6m and 4-6 yrs. We're not going to get <5m in this market even if the cap wasn't rising.
Let's wait and see what his SV% is at the end of the season. Looks like it won't be over .930.

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12-12-2013, 09:46 AM
  #69
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The team as a whole is fragile, talented players don't get their **** done, Veterans are underwhelming.
If Homer has any brain left he should delay any further contract extension to the latest possible point of time... everything is in jeopardy now.

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12-18-2013, 11:05 AM
  #70
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Mason stands at 2.34 & .924 right now. Good solid numbers from your #1, nothing insane, if these numbers float about here for the majority of the season. I still see a 3yr/12M deal...MAAAAAAAYBE a 4/16M

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12-18-2013, 11:44 AM
  #71
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With the Flyers:

16-11-4 in 33 GP

.929 SV%

2.25 GAA

To end up with Bryz figures after 100 games he would have to rock a ~.892-.893 SV% for the next 67 games.

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12-18-2013, 11:48 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Mason stands at 2.34 & .924 right now. Good solid numbers from your #1, nothing insane, if these numbers float about here for the majority of the season. I still see a 3yr/12M deal...MAAAAAAAYBE a 4/16M
Tbf if he keeps up .924 that will probably be 4th-7th in the league among guys with 40+ games at the end of the year (so starters) looking at the last 5 years.

But yeh, those deals would be about right in my mind... great since he joined the Flyers but inconsistent to bad before.

Schneider got 4mill as a UFA after a .929 and then .937 season... 58 games at ~9.33.


Last edited by Appleyard: 12-18-2013 at 12:03 PM.
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12-18-2013, 12:04 PM
  #73
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That Chicago stat really skews the averages badly. .800 SV%, if he doesn't play that game, I'm thinking his SV% is probably a few points higher

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12-18-2013, 01:12 PM
  #74
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That Chicago stat really skews the averages badly. .800 SV%, if he doesn't play that game, I'm thinking his SV% is probably a few points higher
Mason has made 709 saves on 767 shots for a 0.924 save percentage.

Take out the Chicago game and he's made 705 saves on 762 shots for a 0.925 save percentage.

Not much of a difference, when it's only one goal on five shots.

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12-18-2013, 01:20 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Mason has made 709 saves on 767 shots for a 0.924 save percentage.

Take out the Chicago game and he's made 705 saves on 762 shots for a 0.925 save percentage.

Not much of a difference, when it's only one goal on five shots.
True...I guess when you look at this month, this month looks ugly. Hopefully he can salvage a couple of awesome games

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