HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

curious thinking on a trade......

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-09-2013, 02:55 PM
  #51
DrHamburg
Registered User
 
DrHamburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 1,398
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Maybe he'll never be that good, but he's still very young so I'm not keen on trading him unless it's for an overpayment. Some players don't break out till their mid 20s.

B Schenn - 62 points in his first 139 games

D Sedin - 66 points in first 154 games

H Sedin - 65 points in his first 164 games
Flyers are in a tough spot right now. They are a borderline playoff team and with a Top 6 that actually produced they would be challenging for a top seed. If they were an average scoring team they would have roughly 12-14 more goals this season (Flyers have lost 6 games by 1 goal this season so far). Right now B. Schenn is hurting the team, I personally think its too early to give up on him but I understand why considering how the season has gone so far. The Simmonds-Schenn line has been awful for the Flyers this season.

DrHamburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2013, 02:59 PM
  #52
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
Flyers are in a tough spot right now. They are a borderline playoff team and with a Top 6 that actually produced they would be challenging for a top seed. If they were an average scoring team they would have roughly 12-14 more goals this season (Flyers have lost 6 games by 1 goal this season so far). Right now B. Schenn is hurting the team, I personally think its too early to give up on him but I understand why considering how the season has gone so far. The Simmonds-Schenn line has been awful for the Flyers this season.
Schenn is in a weird spot that's even weirder then JVR's was. Our top six needs Schenn producing whether he's ready for it or not and even though his development isn't done he's getting to the point where people should have doubts. Just kind of wait and see with him I guess.

Garbage Goal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2013, 03:00 PM
  #53
FlyersFanz
aut viam inveniam au
 
FlyersFanz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: BlkVanOutsideUrHouse
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
Flyers are in a tough spot right now. They are a borderline playoff team and with a Top 6 that actually produced they would be challenging for a top seed. If they were an average scoring team they would have roughly 12-14 more goals this season (Flyers have lost 6 games by 1 goal this season so far). Right now B. Schenn is hurting the team, I personally think its too early to give up on him but I understand why considering how the season has gone so far. The Simmonds-Schenn line has been awful for the Flyers this season.
Actually the 2nd line has been better than the 1st line, so do we trade Giroux and Voracek now?
Brayden and Vinny have been decent on that 2nd line, its Simmer that has problems.

FlyersFanz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2013, 03:03 PM
  #54
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Actually the 2nd line has been better than the 1st line, so do we trade Giroux and Voracek now?
Brayden and Vinny have been decent on that 2nd line, its Simmer that has problems.
In terms of offensive production they've been okay when healthy and with both Lecavalier and Schenn on it. Lecavalier has been shifted to Giroux's wing at times before and he's in and out of the lineup this season with injuries. Even when healthy that line as well as our top six in general ranges from bad to mediocre/average defensively.

As it stands right now, the line is going to either be Simmonds-Schenn-Raffl/McGinn until Lecavalier is healthy or something similar to that. That's a horrible second line.

Garbage Goal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2013, 03:19 PM
  #55
DrHamburg
Registered User
 
DrHamburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 1,398
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Schenn is in a weird spot that's even weirder then JVR's was. Our top six needs Schenn producing whether he's ready for it or not and even though his development isn't done he's getting to the point where people should have doubts. Just kind of wait and see with him I guess.
I agree. And yes. Simmer hasn't been good all season but I think B. Schenn has been worse. Points, most advance stats will show you Schenn has been pretty terrible this season. Not saying he has been moved or that Simmonds has been good (he hasn't), I am just saying, if the Flyers top 6 as whole was average in terms of scoring, they might be a top 5 team in the east and I feel like Schenn has been the worst of he the top 6 forwards (even though Couts read and downie seem more like a top line lately)

DrHamburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2013, 03:52 PM
  #56
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 18,376
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
We already have the likes of Streit and Lecavalier with long-term deals in their twilight years and neither one of those contracts is looking impressive right now. I'd rather not go for a third player like that at least not with that type of contract.
VL's is looking fine aside from the injury. Streit's isn't too bad, his play has been decent. For $5.25 mil you would like to see more, but his play hasn't been too far below where his contract would be an issue. $5.25 is the going rate for defenseman of his caliber. The only issue with his contract is the length, which you can't complain about right now because we don't know what he'll be doing three years form now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You can avoid players over 30 just because they're over 30 if they're going to command a high, long-term cap hit for their decline years. This is where it's ideal to have a constant stream of talent coming in via prospects, so your team doesn't have to resort to keeping lots of those guys or signing lots of them.

Edit: We already have Lecavalier and Hartnell. Add Gaborik to the mix and the team is starting to look like something Sather would build.
Well again I am not advocating overpaying for Gaborik. If he wants a seven year deal at the level he is at now, I would have no interest. I thought he was signed for a couple more years, at which point I would have been interested. I don't think adding Gabo to this mix would be a bad thing. He's 31. There is nothing wrong with adding an over 30 year old player, even if you have a couple already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
No, I think you are not understanding what I am saying. I am saying I don't want to trade younger roster players for older players, never anything about prospects. If the trade is Hartnell, then sure. Simmonds fits better with the core than Gaborik and Hartnell in terms of age.
Gaborik brings more offense to this team. This team needs offense. But Simmonds is 25 so he is a better fit, even the though the Flyers need more scoring? Come on. Yes, Simmonds fits better with the core in terms of age, but if you have a choice between a 31 year old who can score 30+ goals and a 25 who can't, I'd take the 31 year old who can.

Quote:
I never said younger is better. I said the Flyers should look to acquire younger players, as in younger than Gaborik. It isn't like swapping Simmonds for Gaborik is gonna make this team a lot better than they are currently, so what is the point in that trade? I disagree in Simmonds not having a lot of value.
So at what point would you trade a player? Only if they younger? If they are within a year? Two years? If you can get a better player you do it. Losing Simmonds in favor of Gabbo would make this team a lot better. End of story. I'm not sure how adding a perennial 30+ goal scorer would not. You slot him on a line with either Giroux or VL (when he comes back) and you have a very good offensive threat, something this team desperately needs.

Hartnell-G-Gabbo
Schenn-VL-Voracek
Downie-Coots-Read

That is a pretty formidable top nine, despite the fact that three players (OMG) are over 30. And yes that is a lot better than with Simmonds in there.

What do you think Simmonds would command on the trade market just out of curiosity? At best I think you could probably get a first rounder maybe a little more at the deadline. I'd take Gabbo over that any day of the week.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2013, 03:55 PM
  #57
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 30,178
vCash: 50
Sign him as a FA then.

Curufinwe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2013, 04:14 PM
  #58
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Oh God What's This
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 74,590
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
VL's is looking fine aside from the injury. Streit's isn't too bad, his play has been decent. For $5.25 mil you would like to see more, but his play hasn't been too far below where his contract would be an issue. $5.25 is the going rate for defenseman of his caliber. The only issue with his contract is the length, which you can't complain about right now because we don't know what he'll be doing three years form now.



Well again I am not advocating overpaying for Gaborik. If he wants a seven year deal at the level he is at now, I would have no interest. I thought he was signed for a couple more years, at which point I would have been interested. I don't think adding Gabo to this mix would be a bad thing. He's 31. There is nothing wrong with adding an over 30 year old player, even if you have a couple already.



Gaborik brings more offense to this team. This team needs offense. But Simmonds is 25 so he is a better fit, even the though the Flyers need more scoring? Come on. Yes, Simmonds fits better with the core in terms of age, but if you have a choice between a 31 year old who can score 30+ goals and a 25 who can't, I'd take the 31 year old who can.



So at what point would you trade a player? Only if they younger? If they are within a year? Two years? If you can get a better player you do it. Losing Simmonds in favor of Gabbo would make this team a lot better. End of story. I'm not sure how adding a perennial 30+ goal scorer would not. You slot him on a line with either Giroux or VL (when he comes back) and you have a very good offensive threat, something this team desperately needs.

Hartnell-G-Gabbo
Schenn-VL-Voracek
Downie-Coots-Read

That is a pretty formidable top nine, despite the fact that three players (OMG) are over 30. And yes that is a lot better than with Simmonds in there.

What do you think Simmonds would command on the trade market just out of curiosity? At best I think you could probably get a first rounder maybe a little more at the deadline. I'd take Gabbo over that any day of the week.
Yeah, if Gaborik had like 3-4 years left on his contract I wouldn't mind grabbing him, depending on the price. But going into UFA...not so much.

__________________
Saturday night, I like to raise a little harm. I'll sleep when I'm dead.
Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2013, 04:40 PM
  #59
ILoveStephanieBrown
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 6,056
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Luke has the better offensive game even if it hasn't been shown this year. Just look at their career numbers. Schenn has 30 more points in 30 less NHL games. That may not sound like a lot but if you consider Grosmmann's NHL total points at 57 points, 30 points is over a 50% increase.

Also I'm pretty sure B Schenn's streaky-ness will change with experience. People forget but he has the equivalence of less then 2 NHL seasons under his belt, substantially less actually. Also being a ~45 point winger (while getting 3rd line minutes) is a top line winger not second line if you go by the numbers. Even though I think he'll be closer to being a consistent 50+ pt player when all is said and done.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your assessment of the proposed trade just that I don't agree with your assessment of the Schenns.
Also on B. Schenn, he's been switched from center to wing, and back again more times than one can count.

ILoveStephanieBrown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2013, 06:19 PM
  #60
FlyingPhilly
Flyers Win 201x Cup
 
FlyingPhilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Philly
Country: United States
Posts: 1,634
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Well again I am not advocating overpaying for Gaborik. If he wants a seven year deal at the level he is at now, I would have no interest. I thought he was signed for a couple more years, at which point I would have been interested. I don't think adding Gabo to this mix would be a bad thing. He's 31. There is nothing wrong with adding an over 30 year old player, even if you have a couple already.

Gaborik brings more offense to this team. This team needs offense. But Simmonds is 25 so he is a better fit, even the though the Flyers need more scoring? Come on. Yes, Simmonds fits better with the core in terms of age, but if you have a choice between a 31 year old who can score 30+ goals and a 25 who can't, I'd take the 31 year old who can.

So at what point would you trade a player? Only if they younger? If they are within a year? Two years? If you can get a better player you do it. Losing Simmonds in favor of Gabbo would make this team a lot better. End of story. I'm not sure how adding a perennial 30+ goal scorer would not. You slot him on a line with either Giroux or VL (when he comes back) and you have a very good offensive threat, something this team desperately needs.

Hartnell-G-Gabbo
Schenn-VL-Voracek
Downie-Coots-Read

That is a pretty formidable top nine, despite the fact that three players (OMG) are over 30. And yes that is a lot better than with Simmonds in there.

What do you think Simmonds would command on the trade market just out of curiosity? At best I think you could probably get a first rounder maybe a little more at the deadline. I'd take Gabbo over that any day of the week.
You seem like a person who prefers instant gratification/sure thing over development and long term planning. I don't give a crap how much better the offense will get with Gaborik because the Flyers still aren't winning anything even with him on the team for a few years. Why trade Simmonds+ more or whatever for him? If you want him so much then sign him as a FA. Wasting assets like that for a UFA to be is not good management. Sure you can sign him to an extension, but then you will have another large cap hit for a player heading towards his decline. The Flyers surely can add more to that stable already.

FlyingPhilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2013, 08:26 AM
  #61
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 18,376
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
You seem like a person who prefers instant gratification/sure thing over development and long term planning. I don't give a crap how much better the offense will get with Gaborik because the Flyers still aren't winning anything even with him on the team for a few years. Why trade Simmonds+ more or whatever for him? If you want him so much then sign him as a FA. Wasting assets like that for a UFA to be is not good management. Sure you can sign him to an extension, but then you will have another large cap hit for a player heading towards his decline. The Flyers surely can add more to that stable already.
As I stated earlier, I didn't know that Gabbo was a UFA when I made my first statement. I thought he had a couple years left on his deal. With that in mind, I took back what I said and stated that I would not trade for Gabbo as a rental unless this team made some kind of run where it looked like they could contend. I also would not be opposed to going after him as a UFA, but I also stated that I am not advocating overpaying for him in any way. Gabbo is not finished by any means, and there is nothing wrong with adding a player in his 30s to a team where the majority of players are under 30.

If Giroux, Couturier, the Schenns, Grossmann, Mason, Laughton, Voracek, Read, Raffl, Gus, Coburn, Rinaldo, and Downie were over 30, then ok I'd agree with you, adding another over 30 player is a bit much. But next year it will be VL, Streit, and Hartnell who are 30 or over. Only Mark Streit will be 35 or over. No need to panic about adding another 32 year old to the mix.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2013, 07:43 PM
  #62
FlyingPhilly
Flyers Win 201x Cup
 
FlyingPhilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Philly
Country: United States
Posts: 1,634
vCash: 500
Vinny, Streit, Hartnell, and Kimmo are all in decline. Granted some players in decline are still better than other players, but really Hartnell has been brutal ever since the latest lockout. Streit has been okay, but the past few games have been really bad. The point is older players regress and I am sure Gaborik is no exception. I am fine with getting him at no cost like signing him as a FA (reasonable contract) or trading Hartnell for him. However, trading a younger, more cost controlled asset like Simmonds or Voracek for older players heading toward decline like Gaborik, even non-upcoming FAs, is a no from me.

FlyingPhilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:12 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.