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Sather - AV Disconnect

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Old
12-11-2013, 05:35 AM
  #51
mullichicken25
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Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
Wait what, the '11-12 roster was definitely not mediocre.

The bolded describes last year too!
The 11-12 roster was the very definition of mediocre.

You're 100% right about last years team... And it got torts canned

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12-11-2013, 06:14 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by rdhstlr23 View Post
In AV's press conference he said he wants to play a more offensive style of hockey, but he doesn't have the personnel.

How much more damning to Sather can that be?

We hire an offensive style coach but we don't have the players to run the system. Or we can't bring in players that fit the system.

Clearly there is an issue of accountability here and it sounds like AV fired the first shots at Sather.
There's no Sather-AV disconnect. There is, however, a pretty substantial Sather-Sather disconnect.

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12-11-2013, 06:22 AM
  #53
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AV hasn't got much to work with.

This roster is flawed.

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12-11-2013, 06:38 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
I actually don't think there is a disconnect at all folks. I think Sather knew exactly what he was getting out of AV. I think Sather is probably taken a bit off guard that some of the guys are struggling in the system. But I can't imagine Sather Brian Boyle and Taylor Pyatt were going to be quality guys in a puck possession system.

My point is this season was probably always intended to be a work in progress.
I think you hit it on the head. what better way to turn over your roster when 75% of your forwards are FA

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12-11-2013, 06:41 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
Torts took an equally mediocre roster, playing what is unanimously considered a crappy style in the post lockout nhl, to the eastern conference finals.

Coaching is about far more that X's and O's on a marker board.

My beef with "AV's system" is that not everyone appears to be on it and team effort is hit or miss. The team doesn't appear to be all in and working as a cohesive unit. That falls on the coach, and subsequently on the veteran team leaders.
Bull. Torts had a far more balanced roster than AV.

Swap Nash for Gaborik.

Take away Dubinsky, Prust, Anisimov, and Fedetenko and replace them with Dorsett, Brassard, Pyatt, and Pouilout and see how well they play for Torts

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12-11-2013, 07:11 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Bull. Torts had a far more balanced roster than AV.

Swap Nash for Gaborik.

Take away Dubinsky, Prust, Anisimov, and Fedetenko and replace them with Dorsett, Brassard, Pyatt, and Pouilout and see how well they play for Torts
take a bunch of incredibly average players that performed very well under torteralla and swap them for a bunch of guys who have been statistically equal or better since they've been in the league?

I don't know why it's so hard for people to admit the 11-12 team was incredibly well coached. I wanted Torts replaced too, but it doesn't change the fact that he did a fantastic job that year.

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12-11-2013, 07:13 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
take a bunch of incredibly average players that performed very well under torteralla and swap them for a bunch of guys who have been statistically equal or better since they've been in the league?
Statistically equal or better?

You didn't actually look did you.

Dubi and Anisimov were both 40 point a year guys.

Prust and Feds were getting 20 points a year

They haven't replaced any of that.

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12-11-2013, 07:20 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Statistically equal or better?

You didn't actually look did you.

Dubi and Anisimov were both 40 point a year guys.

Prust and Feds were getting 20 points a year

They haven't replaced any of that.
I did look, and its very close

a handful of points here or there was not the difference between the '11 team and this one

The differnece was consistency and comitment in the execution of the team system. Credit for that falls on the coach and verteran leadership, and likewise, blame for its current absence falls on the same parties.

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Old
12-11-2013, 07:26 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by StaalWars View Post
Agreed, I think Sather has always taken the easiest road in front of him which leads to the interesting question: What does he do now? Just firing AV would be an admission that he screwed up, so I don't see that happening. He has to make some moves to bring in some AV suited personnel but that's easier said than done.
Sather thought he had the players for an AV system. That's why he hired AV. The man is just about as lost as a GM could possibly be. It's sickening. Lets see what the next silver bullet is

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12-11-2013, 07:53 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SwedishBullet62 View Post
well regardless of what we do roster wise, at least we have a goalie who will keep us away from a top 5 pick, thats something to be happy about....or......
He is not playing at a high level this year. I doubt he would keep them from having a top pick.



There is no "disconnect" with Sather & AV. Sather knew the type of coach/style he was bringing in. The problem is, he thought that this roster was more talented than what it showed under Tortorella.

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Old
12-11-2013, 08:04 AM
  #61
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Please....please...please.... AV only had 2 offers to coach this season... 5 year offer Dallas... 5 year offer rangers.... Not a difficult hockey decision to make

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12-11-2013, 08:14 AM
  #62
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Theres blame to go all around, but Im glad most people are FINALLY coming around on the notion that this is/has been primarily a roster and personnel issue. AV is a competitor at heart. He wants to win games. Hes not going to let the grandiose sweet talking from the executive suite hinder roster realities for too much longer. Like Tortorella before him, and Renney before him, this team will need to clamp down because offense isn't exactly the rosters' strong suit.

Theres 3 main on the ice issues as I see it:

1. Lacking offensively dynamic players. Theres Nash, thats it. And Ive got serious problems with his compete level on a nightly basis.

2. Compete level - the entire team is dormant. They are caught between systems and philosophies. Ive never seen a system where taking the body and playing a gritty game was a bad thing, however.

3. Man to man defense - sheesh, this has been a real issue. Its a constant stream of turnovers, stick checks, and missed assignments in the defensive zone. Lundqvist hasn't played well, but hes also been subjected to many more high quality scoring chances because of a defensive system meant to spring the rush - A RUSH THAT NEVER LEADS TO ANY OFFENSE ANYWAY!

Im most concerned about #2. That isn't a switch you just turn on or off, although Sather did his best to turn it off.

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12-11-2013, 08:29 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traderalways View Post
Please....please...please.... AV only had 2 offers to coach this season... 5 year offer Dallas... 5 year offer rangers.... Not a difficult hockey decision to make
Not sure what you're trying to say.

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12-11-2013, 08:34 AM
  #64
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I think the very fact that he hired AV shows you how far out of touch Sather is with his job/team/league. Can't make moves in a vacuum, Mr Sather.

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12-11-2013, 08:35 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Sather actually thought this team was skilled enough to play in AV's system, which is part of the reason why he hired him. He failed to recognize the deficiencies in the roster he constructed. If Sather can't even properly assess the talent level on this team, how can he be trusted to go about fixing the roster?
This exactly!!!

Players like Stepan, Brassard, Callahan, Del Zotto or not nearly as good/skilled/consistent as Sather thinks they are.

AV said as much "I was told Del Zotto is pretty a pretty good player".
I guarantee Sather told AV that Stepan was a #1 center ready to break out and be a star. That is simply not the case.

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12-11-2013, 08:47 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Theres blame to go all around, but Im glad most people are FINALLY coming around on the notion that this is/has been primarily a roster and personnel issue. AV is a competitor at heart. He wants to win games. Hes not going to let the grandiose sweet talking from the executive suite hinder roster realities for too much longer. Like Tortorella before him, and Renney before him, this team will need to clamp down because offense isn't exactly the rosters' strong suit.

Theres 3 main on the ice issues as I see it:

1. Lacking offensively dynamic players. Theres Nash, thats it. And Ive got serious problems with his compete level on a nightly basis.

2. Compete level - the entire team is dormant. They are caught between systems and philosophies. Ive never seen a system where taking the body and playing a gritty game was a bad thing, however.

3. Man to man defense - sheesh, this has been a real issue. Its a constant stream of turnovers, stick checks, and missed assignments in the defensive zone. Lundqvist hasn't played well, but hes also been subjected to many more high quality scoring chances because of a defensive system meant to spring the rush - A RUSH THAT NEVER LEADS TO ANY OFFENSE ANYWAY!

Im most concerned about #2. That isn't a switch you just turn on or off, although Sather did his best to turn it off.
How are 2 and 3 not the coaches fault?

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12-11-2013, 08:49 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
This exactly!!!

Players like Stepan, Brassard, Callahan, Del Zotto or not nearly as good/skilled/consistent as Sather thinks they are.

AV said as much "I was told Del Zotto is pretty a pretty good player".
I guarantee Sather told AV that Stepan was a #1 center ready to break out and be a star. That is simply not the case.
There was zero indication otherwise going into the season

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12-11-2013, 08:51 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
How are 2 and 3 not the coaches fault?
His job to get the most out of his players.

His job to implement the system that give the team the best chance to win.

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12-11-2013, 08:53 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
I guarantee Sather told AV that Stepan was a #1 center ready to break out and be a star.
To be fair, the majority of this board was saying the same thing.

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12-11-2013, 08:53 AM
  #70
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Coaches don't know the makeup of every team like they do the one they're currently coaching. I'm sure that when AV interviewed for the position, he explained his system, and Sather pitched it as "We have Richards and Nash, a plethora of young offensive talent waiting to break out, an elite goalie, and one of the top defensive groups in the league. We need you to come in and make the team more potent offensively."

Torts took the Rangers job initially in the same manner. The team was terrible in so many aspects during his first 80-ish games here. To expect AV to throw up his hands in the first 6 months of a 4 year contract and take it back to barebones defense is just crazy. I'm happy he spoke out and said what has seemingly been completely lost on Glen Sather.

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Old
12-11-2013, 08:57 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
How are 2 and 3 not the coaches fault?
Give me a break. Its been 32 games. The guy was going to come in and try what hes comfortable with. Hes finally realizing this team stinks.

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12-11-2013, 09:01 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Give me a break. Its been 32 games. The guy was going to come in and try what hes comfortable with. Hes finally realizing this team stinks.
We saw warning signs in the pre-season games. But, you know, that don't matter and mean nothing.


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Old
12-11-2013, 09:01 AM
  #73
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AV last night:

Quote:
I don't have the personnel I need to play my system.
Wtf?

Then maybe he shouldn't sign here in the first place, but I got a feeling we're gonna see a major roster renovation...

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Old
12-11-2013, 09:03 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
AV last night:



Wtf?

Then maybe he shouldn't sign here in the first place, but I got a feeling we're gonna see a major roster renovation...
It probably seemed like a good fit when the GM was blowing smoke up AV's ass about how good this roster was.

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Old
12-11-2013, 09:06 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
This exactly!!!

Players like Stepan, Brassard, Callahan, Del Zotto or not nearly as good/skilled/consistent as Sather thinks they are.

AV said as much "I was told Del Zotto is pretty a pretty good player".
I guarantee Sather told AV that Stepan was a #1 center ready to break out and be a star. That is simply not the case.
I knew we were in trouble once AV said that about Del Zotto. Not one word was mentioned about his inconsistency, which has been a major issue for him since he entered the league. If Sather is going to misrepresent the abilities of these players, then AV will not be able to coach them properly. Seems like he finally figured out on his own that this roster is not nearly good as the organization said it was.

And the players definitely overvalued themselves as well, thinking that they will "break out" in a more offensive system. Sometimes you are what you are regardless of the coach or the system. And they haven't put in much effort this season, almost as if they expect AV to wave a magic wand and turn them into better players.

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