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Did Losing Dubinsky and Prust Crush the Rangers

View Poll Results: How significant was the loss of Dubinsky and Prust
Humongous. Losing them is why we have never been able to get the pieces of 2012 back. 43 26.22%
Missed, but not that major issue. 80 48.78%
Not really. 41 25.00%
Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-10-2013, 10:31 PM
  #51
slipknottin
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Lets do some simple math.

Anisimov was about a 40 point guy.
Dubinsky was about a 45 point guy.

Trade them for Nash, who averages about 65 points a season.

Thats a net loss of 20 points a season.


Same thing with Gaborik

Gaborik was roughly a 75 point player for the rangers.

They moved him for

J Moore - maybe a 10 point player
Brassard - 40 point player
Dorsett - maybe 20 points, probably more like 15.

Thats moving 75 points for 65-70 points

A net loss of 5-10.

Thats 25-30 points per season the team lost with those two trades.


Now if you want to say Gaborik was breaking down and had to be moved, fine, I understand that, players age. But they have not adequately replaced the point scoring that they shipped out with those trades.

And I havent even brought up guys like Fedetenko and Prust. But were ~20 point a season guys for the rangers. They have replaced them with who? Pyatt and Pouilout?

Pyatt had 11 points last year, has 1 this year. Pouliot might be able to manage 20 points, but hes been so bad defensively he doesnt even play.

In my opinion it has nothing, or very little, to do with their fighting.

It has a ton to do with the bottom half (maybe the 3 bottom lines) not being able to hold their own on the boards, not hitting, not being solid defensively, and not contributing offensively.



But overall, the fascination with adding top pieces is KILLING this team. They have spent virtually all their resources in both cap, and trades to acquire top forwards who can never replace the guys or cap space they gave up for them.

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Old
12-10-2013, 11:05 PM
  #52
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Lost Heart & Soul. "Intangibles"

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Old
12-10-2013, 11:08 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Lets do some simple math.

Anisimov was about a 40 point guy.
Dubinsky was about a 45 point guy.

Trade them for Nash, who averages about 65 points a season.

Thats a net loss of 20 points a season.


Same thing with Gaborik

Gaborik was roughly a 75 point player for the rangers.

They moved him for

J Moore - maybe a 10 point player
Brassard - 40 point player
Dorsett - maybe 20 points, probably more like 15.

Thats moving 75 points for 65-70 points

A net loss of 5-10.

Thats 25-30 points per season the team lost with those two trades.


Now if you want to say Gaborik was breaking down and had to be moved, fine, I understand that, players age. But they have not adequately replaced the point scoring that they shipped out with those trades.

And I havent even brought up guys like Fedetenko and Prust. But were ~20 point a season guys for the rangers. They have replaced them with who? Pyatt and Pouilout?

Pyatt had 11 points last year, has 1 this year. Pouliot might be able to manage 20 points, but hes been so bad defensively he doesnt even play.

In my opinion it has nothing, or very little, to do with their fighting.

It has a ton to do with the bottom half (maybe the 3 bottom lines) not being able to hold their own on the boards, not hitting, not being solid defensively, and not contributing offensively.



But overall, the fascination with adding top pieces is KILLING this team. They have spent virtually all their resources in both cap, and trades to acquire top forwards who can never replace the guys or cap space they gave up for them.
The point stuff is ********. Dubinsky and AA were two guys who can play anywhere in the lineup and do a decent job, they put themselves on the line to make a play. Give me Dubinskys 10 goals for 4 mil over Callahans 25 goals for 5 mil. Dubinsky brings more to the table and is healthy

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Old
12-10-2013, 11:08 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
But overall, the fascination with adding top pieces is KILLING this team. They have spent virtually all their resources in both cap, and trades to acquire top forwards who can never replace the guys or cap space they gave up for them.

This. We went with the strategy of acquiring top pieces for 8 years and that got us nowhere. We build our team with home-grown, heart and soul players, supplement them with gritty veterans and one offensive star (Gaborik) and we have the best two-season stretch of hockey since the mid 1990s. And then we go back to the strategy of acquiring shiny toys?

I know that's an oversimplification of what happened, but to some degree that's the truth. And it's just baffling.

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12-10-2013, 11:12 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
This. We went with the strategy of acquiring top pieces for 8 years and that got us nowhere. We build our team with home-grown, heart and soul players, supplement them with gritty veterans and one offensive star (Gaborik) and we have the best two-season stretch of hockey since the mid 1990s. And then we go back to the strategy of acquiring shiny toys?

I know that's an oversimplification of what happened, but to some degree that's the truth. And it's just baffling.
Ultimately. All they accomplished was swapping Gaborik for Nash, and in the process lost Dubinsky, Anisimov, and never replaced Prust or Fedetenko.

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12-10-2013, 11:13 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RangersHank View Post
The point stuff is ********. Dubinsky and AA were two guys who can play anywhere in the lineup and do a decent job, they put themselves on the line to make a play. Give me Dubinskys 10 goals for 4 mil over Callahans 25 goals for 5 mil. Dubinsky brings more to the table and is healthy
I'm not sure what it is you are arguing.

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12-11-2013, 12:03 AM
  #57
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having 3 guys that held the team's character made a big difference because if one guy was off one night (IE cally) then somebody else took over. those 3 bought in together. what we got was lateral, but we haven't replaced them as we have needed to

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12-11-2013, 10:00 AM
  #58
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Take this for what it's worth.

Because of where I work, I am privy to certain events. I got a chance to attend a luncheon with Dave Maloney. Off the record, he said that the loss of Dubinksy, took lots of the identity out of the room. As did Prust not coming back. He further compared it to when he went to the finals and then in a way to improve the team, much of that core was traded away.

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12-11-2013, 10:04 AM
  #59
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I'm not voting... there aren't any options that make sense.

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12-11-2013, 10:06 AM
  #60
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I posted this in the Brooks thread, but it might be more relevant here:

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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Buffalo doesn't give us a 1st and a prospect for Callahan. They're rebuilding. He's a veteran rental. If they see the Rangers are shopping Cally, they wait 'til FA thinking they have a good shot at signing the hometown kid. My $0.02

Agree with all the posters talking about the Prust contract. It was ridiculous at the time, and is still ridiculous.

Also agree with the posters who say Haley is a similar player, because he is. Prust was a nobody in the NHL (he was beast in the OHL, shut down Crosby, etc...) until the Rangers gave him a legit shot. When Haley had his shot with the Isles, he was a force and a quick fan-favorite for his antics against the Pens. He hasn't had that same shot with the Rangers yet. Understand he's injured, would love to call him up when he's healthy.

Until then, I'm okay with Ash as our fourth liner.

It wasn't losing Prust that was the big problem in this team completely destroying it's identity. It was losing Prust, and THEN Dubinsky and Anisimov. Then we had an identity that didn't fit the coach with two pure scoring talents in Gaborik and Nash. So we blew that up and brought over Brassard, DD, Moore. Guys who are good, but haven't done anything to mean as much to the NYR blue as AA and Dubi did - and then we replaced the coach with a guy who would have excelled with Gabby and Nash on his roster. Slats going in circles, chasing his tail and never catching it.

Here's an idea... stop blowing it up?

Or blow it up productively, one more time, and stick with it. ie - trade Callahan, Girardi, and DZ. Get productive pieces back that fit with AV since we're bought into him. Build an identity.

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Old
12-11-2013, 10:53 AM
  #61
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The love affair with former home-grown players is so ridiculous.

"The identity build with AA..." Really? Really?

A 35 point 2nd/3rd line center who while had some intelligence on the defensive side of the puck, was a complete pushover otherwise?

This guy was part of the "identity" of this team? My memory might be a little foggy, but off the top of my head I can think of more times of him getting utterly destroyed skating with his head down than any other big impact play he made.

And Dubinsky as this provider of poise, being able to step up when other guys didn't? LOL. Guy was the single most inconsistent player this team has had since Kovalev. Is he a player that can score ~50 points playing 1st line minutes and PP1? Yes, but so can a lot of people that have left this team with far less remembrance (PA Parenteu, for one).


The problem with this team still lies with the two main problems of the Sather era: Inability to build a true 1st line, and inability to identify low cost 4th liners that don't end up hurting the team, either with low skill or high contract. It's not letting this mid line tweeners go.

Making the trade for Nash was the right move, because 40 goal potential doesn't grow on trees. Cheap depth is obtainable in this league. The problem lies in the fact that Richards has been an utter bust, and this team has not developed another winger with first line skill since Kovalev.

Letting Prust leave was the right move also, regardless of the "chemistry" impact, because it's asinine to give that contract to that type of player. The issue isn't letting him leave though, it's thinking guys like Pyatt, Asham, Brashear, etc, etc can fill a similar role.


The generation of Callahan/Girardi/Staal/Dubinsky/etc had some good moments, but it's time to move on.

The entire current captain staff should be cleared out this offseason, C given to McD and an A to Stepan, let the team decide the other.

Good teams stay good by knowing when it's smart to still fold their hands, not wait for the bust at the river to tell them that.

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12-11-2013, 11:08 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
The love affair with former home-grown players is so ridiculous.
See my above post

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12-11-2013, 11:25 AM
  #63
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Dubinsky and Prust played with a swagger that was a huge boost to this team. Everyone layed with swagger when they were here. Even thought it was the days of the black and blueshirts, they had swagger that they were tougher than you. They would hustle their ass off to get into your lane and drop in front of any shot, then try and put you through the boards, and if you didn't like it, there were plenty of players on the roster interested in answering the bell if your team decided to ring it.

On the blueline we had Staal being hard to play against opposing steamroller stars: AO, Lucic, Malkin,
Tavares, etc. McD was most physical when matched against: Parise, Kovalchuk, Giroux, Crosby etc. where he could shut them down through his skating and talent as much as his physical play, allowing him to be very physical.


Now, we have Dorsett. I think Kreider and Miller are tough kids that can bring swagger to this roster, through never being intimidated to play a physical game, and Dorsett is willing to drop'em, but the team needs a serious heavy that can play hockey. Doesn't have to be a Lucic, maybe a Kassian or a Tom Wilson. Preferably a youngin'. Staal is in the Twilight ZOne this season. Maybe it's his eye. Maybe it's Ulfie. Maybe it's Stralman as a partner. Maybe it's AV not having 5 in the picture as often. WHatever it is, he's not crushing top players. Hell he's playing sheltered minutes.

If McIlrath is ready, he fills a lot of the swagger, and physical defensman requirements. Bringing him up could be the one player in the system that can be a catalyst to help turn the season around. That's only if he's ready obviously. This is his time. If he's not ready right now, then I think he'll never be the player that we wanted him to be.

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Old
12-11-2013, 11:27 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
The love affair with former home-grown players is so ridiculous.

"The identity build with AA..." Really? Really?

A 35 point 2nd/3rd line center who while had some intelligence on the defensive side of the puck, was a complete pushover otherwise?

This guy was part of the "identity" of this team? My memory might be a little foggy, but off the top of my head I can think of more times of him getting utterly destroyed skating with his head down than any other big impact play he made.

And Dubinsky as this provider of poise, being able to step up when other guys didn't? LOL. Guy was the single most inconsistent player this team has had since Kovalev. Is he a player that can score ~50 points playing 1st line minutes and PP1? Yes, but so can a lot of people that have left this team with far less remembrance (PA Parenteu, for one).


The problem with this team still lies with the two main problems of the Sather era: Inability to build a true 1st line, and inability to identify low cost 4th liners that don't end up hurting the team, either with low skill or high contract. It's not letting this mid line tweeners go.

Making the trade for Nash was the right move, because 40 goal potential doesn't grow on trees. Cheap depth is obtainable in this league. The problem lies in the fact that Richards has been an utter bust, and this team has not developed another winger with first line skill since Kovalev.

Letting Prust leave was the right move also, regardless of the "chemistry" impact, because it's asinine to give that contract to that type of player. The issue isn't letting him leave though, it's thinking guys like Pyatt, Asham, Brashear, etc, etc can fill a similar role.


The generation of Callahan/Girardi/Staal/Dubinsky/etc had some good moments, but it's time to move on.

The entire current captain staff should be cleared out this offseason, C given to McD and an A to Stepan, let the team decide the other.

Good teams stay good by knowing when it's smart to still fold their hands, not wait for the bust at the river to tell them that.
You're discrediting the benefits of having a team grow up together/play together for years. Theres something to be said from that - it benefits the team both on and off the ice.

This isn't baseball.

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12-11-2013, 11:37 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You're discrediting the benefits of having a team grow up together/play together for years. Theres something to be said from that - it benefits the team both on and off the ice.

This isn't baseball.
Well said. See the Cup winning Devils for more details.

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12-11-2013, 11:42 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You're discrediting the benefits of having a team grow up together/play together for years. Theres something to be said from that - it benefits the team both on and off the ice.

This isn't baseball.
I totally agree. We were headed towards the summit of the mountain and then made moves that caused everyone to go rolling back down to base camp.

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12-11-2013, 11:45 AM
  #67
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I don't think some of you realize how ****** Anisimov and Dubinsky were their last seasons in NY.

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12-11-2013, 11:59 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
I don't think some of you realize how ****** Anisimov and Dubinsky were their last seasons in NY.
Depending where you slot them (let's go with 3C for AA and 3 line winger for BD) this is the players who've replaced them in those positions on this roster:

(Hags was already on the team, and Dorsett in this scenario is replacing Prust)

therefore -

D. Moore, Brassard, Pyatt, Pouliot.

I don't think you realize just how useless those guys are. Dubi was never as useless as any of those guys. He played with an edge, dropped'em quite a few times, especially against Philly and NJD, and even when his offense was trash, he was physical as hell, a solid defensive player, always stuck up for his teammates, and was well liked in the locker room. Which one of those dopes above do any of that?

AA could be more enigmatic at times, but he was always a 2 way three zone player. He put up points perfectly consistent with a 3C and he was paid as a 3C. There was nothing wrong with that. Brassard and D. Moore right now are 0 zone players. Boyle is a 1 zone center at his best as the 4C.

When you're trying to be 1% better in all areas, this is a huge difference.

AA, Dubi, and Prust together played legitimate roles, that successful teams need. People wanted AA to produce like a 2C, but we needed a 3C, and keeping his production at 3C makes him affordable and consistent.

You lose 3 players that make your bottom 6 far better than it currently is. Now Prust got paid way too much. ANd Dubi was beng paid as a 2nd line winger then. But with this go'round of contracts Dubi's price tag is going to be consistent with a lot of 3rd liner wingers. Brassard, Moore, Pyatt, and Pouliot would need to play for free for them to have any net positive impact on this team. Making yourself shades worse in 3 bottom six positions is a major issue on a team with ABSOLUTELY 0 secondary scoring support. Those happen to be three guys that all chipped in their share.


Last edited by SlingshotVv: 12-11-2013 at 12:08 PM.
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Old
12-11-2013, 12:10 PM
  #69
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plain and simple, sather screwed up the core of this team letting prust leave ( i get it, he got a contract that was about 3/4 of a million too much for us to afford ), trading Dubinky and Anisimov for Nash and then trying to plug the holes of Dubi and AA by trading Gaborik for Brassard, Dorsett and Moore.

The core has gone rotten and they are not playing for each other....end of story. Point only mean so much.....i hate the word "intangables"......but in this case, its very very true. The old core had it, this one does not.

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12-11-2013, 12:12 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noupf View Post
plain and simple, sather screwed up the core of this team letting prust leave ( i get it, he got a contract that was about 3/4 of a million too much for us to afford ), trading Dubinky and Anisimov for Nash and then trying to plug the holes of Dubi and AA by trading Gaborik for Brassard, Dorsett and Moore.

The core has gone rotten and they are not playing for each other....end of story.
The problem was not letting Prust leave of dealing Dubinsky and Anisimov. The problem is Sather made those moves without having the players to fill those holes in-house. And when you insist on signing UFAs to fill your bottom six, you get what we've seen old, flawed players that other teams have no need for.

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12-11-2013, 12:15 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The problem was not letting Prust leave of dealing Dubinsky and Anisimov. The problem is Sather made those moves without having the players to fill those holes in-house. And when you insist on signing UFAs to fill your bottom six, you get what we've seen — old, flawed players that other teams have no need for.
agreed, but its all linked to the same......letting those core guys go elsewhere, via trade or free agency. It just goes to show, you dont know what you have until its gone. Obvioulsy, like ou said, we had nothing on the farm to plug those holes and we did a crap job filling them via free agency.

So, heres the question, with the salary cap going from 65m to 71.5 m next year and the buy out of richards.......what gets done in july?


Columbus is in town thursday.......anybody think dolan calls JD and asks what his plans are for next year? Big $$ thrown at JD to come in and kick sather out of town, convince messier to come back as coach and kick AV out too?? I can only dream......

more over priced crap signed by sather?

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12-11-2013, 12:18 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
I'm not sure what it is you are arguing.
You do realize when you say Dubinsky was a 45 points guy and Anisimov a 40 point guy, and Nash is only a 65 point guy, there is about 15-20 minutes of icetime available to make up the extra 20 points, right?

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12-11-2013, 12:47 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
The love affair with former home-grown players is so ridiculous.
Among other things, it caused the players to play for each other and the front of the jersey, as opposed to the name on back of jersey.

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12-11-2013, 12:58 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You're discrediting the benefits of having a team grow up together/play together for years. Theres something to be said from that - it benefits the team both on and off the ice.

This isn't baseball.
It's amazing how some fans on this board, who supposedly have followed this team through the dark ages, don't understand this. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's impossible for someone to not value the benefits of having a team grow up together if they were actually were a Rangers fan from 98-04.

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12-11-2013, 12:59 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You're discrediting the benefits of having a team grow up together/play together for years. Theres something to be said from that - it benefits the team both on and off the ice.

This isn't baseball.
I've been saying that for a long time. Home grown talent is not only more affordable, generally speaking, but it brings an element of camaraderie that you simply cannot attain by bringing in outside talent. You get more out of marginal players who developed within your organization than you do with free agents who play similar roles. That's often the element that can put a team over the top.

That being said, Dubinsky was a headcase when he left here. I won't argue that his departure disrupted the room, because that much is clear, but he had an abysmal season before he was traded, and until then was plagued by very inconsistent offensive play.

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