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Did Losing Dubinsky and Prust Crush the Rangers

View Poll Results: How significant was the loss of Dubinsky and Prust
Humongous. Losing them is why we have never been able to get the pieces of 2012 back. 43 26.22%
Missed, but not that major issue. 80 48.78%
Not really. 41 25.00%
Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-11-2013, 01:06 PM
  #76
mrhockey193195
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I've been saying that for a long time. Home grown talent is not only more affordable, generally speaking, but it brings an element of camaraderie that you simply cannot attain by bringing in outside talent. You get more out of marginal players who developed within your organization than you do with free agents who play similar roles. That's often the element that can put a team over the top.

That being said, Dubinsky was a headcase when he left here. I won't argue that his departure disrupted the room, because that much is clear, but he had an abysmal season before he was traded, and until then was plagued by very inconsistent offensive play.
Agreed with the bolded part, Dubi was always streaky throughout his career. He was never going to be a superstar or a sure-fire 1st liner, even though you could argue he has the ability and can play like one at times.

But the thing that bugs me is that he literally had ONE bad (offensive) season in his career, and then we ship him off. No patience, no "see if he turns it around next year", even though every single season of his up to that point was an improvement on the prior season.

Every player has a bad season here or there, especially when they are younger. The lack of patience with Dubi was really disturbing. I think it also sent a message to the entire team that "one bad season and you're out of here"...some fans on this board think that's the way it should be and that's what the players should be thinking, but I'm not one of them. I think that puts unnecessary pressure on the players, and makes them feel like the organization does not have their back.

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Old
12-11-2013, 01:19 PM
  #77
Ian
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You're discrediting the benefits of having a team grow up together/play together for years. Theres something to be said from that - it benefits the team both on and off the ice.

This isn't baseball.
And you're overstating the affect the opposite way.

Of course, there's something to be said for having guys who "grew up together" lead a team and what that means for overall team chemistry.

But if we're going to throw out this "for anyone who followed the team through the dark ages" mantra, then they should also be able to see the significance of identifying the players that lead a room, and their importance (IE 94 cup run).

Just because you have a core of players of essentially the same acquisition era (whether by draft/FA/etc), doesn't mean they all have to stick with the team forever. Intelligent trading and asset management is the key here, as most recently seen in Chicago and now San Jose.

Clearly Sather & co. identified Callahan/Girardi/Staal/Henrik/etc as the room leaders over guys like Dubi/AA/Prust/Mara/Tyutin/Betts/etc over the last decade or so.

Now the missing piece here is using those guys listed as non-essential to build up a stream of incoming players that will just add on to that team mentality, as well as open spots up to guys who have bubbled their way up.

Chicago has done it for years now, San Jose is in the process of doing it. While not necessarily as successful, both Detroit and Boston have done this as well.

Sather has been (and is) unable to identify that next tier of players that should be acquired, and most assets the Rangers have are ridden to the point where they essentially are worth nothing in trades, although they still may provide value to other teams (PA Parenteu, Dupuis, Mitchell, Korp, Valentenko, etc, etc). The lone exception is Gomez, but that was just pure stupidity by MTL.

Now, the question is was the assessment of who ran the room wrong? Was Torts really the room leader? Was it actually Dubi? No one really knows outside of that room, so it's hard to speculate.

Regardless, the biggest issue remains that this team has been unable to have minor turnovers within its team without having extreme major setbacks, a problem that's run now for nearly 20 years.

Just letting Prust go or the Nash trade didn't end what was a good thing - even those teams were brutal to watch, regardless of record (There was just as many people then who were arguing a different style of play even if it meant less wins, as there are others arguing the other side of that no).

The problem begins and ends with Sather's inability to function as a progressive GM in this league. No amount of locker room cohesion or single acquisition will change this.

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Old
12-11-2013, 01:21 PM
  #78
WhipNash27
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Not having any elite offensive players on ELC or RFA contracts is what is crushing the Rangers. Kreider is the closest thing we have right now.

Having bottom tier players who aren't all that good is crushing the Rangers.

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12-11-2013, 01:21 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
I don't think some of you realize how ****** Anisimov and Dubinsky were their last seasons in NY.
They were lousy, but the Rangers made three key mistakes:

1) They failed to identify the emotional impact the loss of those two players would have on the locker room.

2) They failed to replace those players after trading for Nash.

3) They appear to have had a very poor read on Dubinsky, who has been putting up very respectable numbers since he left.

It's a bit of pot & kettle on the last bit, as I was pretty unimpressed by Dubinsky as well, but at the same time I'm just a fan. I'm not neck-deep in the Rangers day-to-day activities like our front office is supposed to be. They're not supposed to be making these kind of mistakes, and yet they keep happening. Bad read on Wolski. Bad read on Lisin. Bad read on Dubinsky. Bad read on Zherdev. That's before you even touch the free agency disasters.

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12-11-2013, 01:25 PM
  #80
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Bring back Avery!!!!












Their presence is definitely missed. Beginning to think that Prust was worth the $2.50 after all. Especially with the cap going up.

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12-11-2013, 01:25 PM
  #81
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Losing depth was crushing. It was a luxury bouncing Anisimov between the first and fourth line.

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12-11-2013, 01:28 PM
  #82
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I think something like this can be best explained by the whole "miracle team" mentality. That team didn't have the best players, it had the right players.

AA, Dubi, and Prust were by no means superstars on their own, that much is completely true. However, the culture of this team changed when they departed. Virtually no one stands up for each other. I mean my god, how often does hank get bumped without even so much as a word said to the offending player?

They may not have been grade A talent, but their strengths, when combined with the whole, made this a much more cohesive team.

Now keep in mind I say that only in the context of the Torts system. I'm not sure we'd be fairing any better right now, even with those guys, in AV's system.

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12-11-2013, 01:34 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by ReverbAndDelay View Post
I think something like this can be best explained by the whole "miracle team" mentality. That team didn't have the best players, it had the right players.
What Sather effectively did is unglue the locker room and then pretend that putty will put it back together.

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12-11-2013, 01:35 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
They were lousy, but the Rangers made three key mistakes:

1) They failed to identify the emotional impact the loss of those two players would have on the locker room.

2) They failed to replace those players after trading for Nash.

3) They appear to have had a very poor read on Dubinsky, who has been putting up very respectable numbers since he left.

It's a bit of pot & kettle on the last bit, as I was pretty unimpressed by Dubinsky as well, but at the same time I'm just a fan. I'm not neck-deep in the Rangers day-to-day activities like our front office is supposed to be. They're not supposed to be making these kind of mistakes, and yet they keep happening. Bad read on Wolski. Bad read on Lisin. Bad read on Dubinsky. Bad read on Zherdev. That's before you even touch the free agency disasters.
I agree with the first two for the most part, but I don't think they had that bad of a reading on Dubi.

Obviously he's better than he was in his last year for NYR, but IMO he has no further upside than he already showed with this team. Yes, he's a 40-50 point player, but he's never going to develop into a more consistent asset that than.

AA is basically what he is, a high end 3C on a contract now (3.3) that the Rangers probably didn't want to give him. Erixon, while still young, has shown nothing to think he's more than a bottom pairing D in the NHL. Obviously the late first is what it is, that draft looked to have some upside in the late first but nothing historical.

They made many mistakes in the past few years, but I don't think misjudging Dubi's talent was one of them. Could they sold him higher? Probably, but I don't think the return in terms of quality of player would have differed much, maybe just slightly lessened the package they'd have to give.

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12-11-2013, 01:43 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
They were lousy, but the Rangers made three key mistakes:

1) They failed to identify the emotional impact the loss of those two players would have on the locker room.

2) They failed to replace those players after trading for Nash.

3) They appear to have had a very poor read on Dubinsky, who has been putting up very respectable numbers since he left.

It's a bit of pot & kettle on the last bit, as I was pretty unimpressed by Dubinsky as well, but at the same time I'm just a fan. I'm not neck-deep in the Rangers day-to-day activities like our front office is supposed to be. They're not supposed to be making these kind of mistakes, and yet they keep happening. Bad read on Wolski. Bad read on Lisin. Bad read on Dubinsky. Bad read on Zherdev. That's before you even touch the free agency disasters.
I thought Tortorella was going to mold Dubinsky? You know, like Lecavileir?

Dubinsky is an overrated underachieving 4.5m third liner

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12-11-2013, 01:46 PM
  #86
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I thought Tortorella was going to mold Dubinsky? You know, like Lecavileir?

Dubinsky is an overrated underachieving 4.5m third liner
...who averages 45 points and close to 20 goals a year? And is on pace for more points this season?

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12-11-2013, 01:54 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
...who averages 45 points and close to 20 goals a year? And is on pace for more points this season?
This season. ... so far...

Pretty awful last 2 seasons...

He played himself into a trade and off this team.

Just started watching?

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Old
12-11-2013, 02:08 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
Their presence is definitely missed. Beginning to think that Prust was worth the $2.50 after all. Especially with the cap going up.
Especially when Pyatt, Pouliot, and Asham are making $3.5M combined and, collectively, don't come close to the positive impact Prust made here.

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12-11-2013, 02:10 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Especially when Pyatt, Pouliot, and Asham are making $3.5M combined and, collectively, don't come close to the positive impact Prust made here.
stupid decisions by Sather. and people will somehow find a way to say he is a smart person

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12-11-2013, 02:26 PM
  #90
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It's clear our chemistry has lacked the past 2 seasons. Prust is our biggest loss. His chemistry with Boyle was fantastic and energized the team. I recall more than a few games where they started off with a few big checks on home ice and the Garden would go crazy.

This team needs an energizer bunny. Some type of positive energy would do this team good. Prust was exactly that along with other players during 11-12

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12-11-2013, 02:53 PM
  #91
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Dubinsky said it best.
He has no hate toward the Rangers. However he does not understand why an organization would want to completely change its identity and its roster so much after such a successful season.

We got rid of our toughness, our chemistry, our depth, our way of life. We got rid of the song "ooooo i got a good feeling". Dam I got a good feeling everytime we fought hard for a win.

Now I feel like the wins are eh and the losses are embarrassing.

Nash is a good player. However he is not the type of guy I want to lead my team. He is not worth 7 million to me. Dont attack me for that, I dont think a lot of guys are worth their price tag. He is very predictable and he does little for us in the defensive zone. Our offense doesnt even look that much better with him or without him. In fact, havnt we been winning more games without him in the line up. Seemed so.

No one will attack the trade because its "Nash". He scores 30 goals a season so we gotta respect. But i dont think that way.

I liked Dubinsky. A cheaper, role player. A guy who can lead a team. Who will fight if he has to. Who can make plays as he is showing to do so in Columbus. He can play bottom 6, top 6, PK, PP, late minutes whatever.

Reliable.

I liked the way we were going. We had good young team, and a great prospect pool. I would have probably kept our team, our coach and gotten rid of Gaborik and try to make the same trade anyway. If it didnt work out, Kreider and Miller were on the horizon who could replace the top 6 predictable Slovak winger. But we didnt.

We changed our entire identity into something idk about anymore.

I lost a lot of interest because of it. Fans look like they did too to be honest.

Anyway. We have what we have.
If i could make changes now. We need to get rid of Pyatt and Poiulet. Terrible. Get rid of them

I believe we need another top 4 Defender. With or without the return of Staal. I was saying this since DZ has been terrible defensively. Out of position. We need someone who can be reliable in the top 4. Even if its a rental I think that will make a world of a difference.

Idk who yet,. Havent research yet

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12-11-2013, 03:06 PM
  #92
WhipNash27
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People need to also realize that after this team being an overly defensive team for 7 or so years, that the transition to being a bit more offensive minded isn't going to happen overnight. There will be growing pains.

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12-11-2013, 03:09 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by WhipNash27 View Post
People need to also realize that after this team being an overly defensive team for 7 or so years, that the transition to being a bit more offensive minded isn't going to happen overnight.
Especially when you lack the personnel and talent to play that way.

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12-11-2013, 03:10 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by WhipNash27 View Post
People need to also realize that after this team being an overly defensive team for 7 or so years, that the transition to being a bit more offensive minded isn't going to happen overnight. There will be growing pains.
Having to revamp about half the roster to get better players isn't exactly growing pains.

Sather tried to sell that foundation as being in place already. I don't know whats worse, falling for it then, or continuing to fall for it.

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12-11-2013, 03:10 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by WhipNash27 View Post
People need to also realize that after this team being an overly defensive team for 7 or so years, that the transition to being a bit more offensive minded isn't going to happen overnight. There will be growing pains.
How does that address the lack of effort?

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12-11-2013, 03:12 PM
  #96
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Especially when you lack the personnel and talent to play that way.
and where do you propose we get that personnel? Trades that haven't exactly worked out? UFAs that haven't exactly worked out? From our middle round draft picks?

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12-11-2013, 03:13 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by WhipNash27 View Post
and where do you propose we get that personnel? Trades that haven't exactly worked out? UFAs that haven't exactly worked out? From our middle round draft picks?
I dont know, but I do now its a better conversation to have than hoping a system is going to change this bunch.

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12-11-2013, 03:14 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by WhipNash27 View Post
and where do you propose we get that personnel? Trades that haven't exactly worked out? UFAs that haven't exactly worked out? From our middle round draft picks?
I don't know. I'm not the one who decided to turn into an offensive team. But hey, evidently that's what you need to be when your "goal is to win the Stanley Cup."

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12-11-2013, 03:15 PM
  #99
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This season. ... so far...

Pretty awful last 2 seasons...

He played himself into a trade and off this team.

Just started watching?
His first four seasons in the NHL, before his down year (offensively) in 2011-12:

2007-08 21 NYR NHL 82 14 26 40
2008-09 22 NYR NHL 82 13 28 41
2009-10 23 NYR NHL 69 20 24 44
2010-11 24 NYR NHL 77 24 30 54

Did you just start watching? (See, I can do it too!)


And as per the bolded...like I always say, he had ONE bad season in his career. Ask any Blue Jackets fan, Dubi was great when he was playing last year, and has been fantastic for them this year. He literally had one bad season (offensively - he was still very effective as a forechecker/PKer in 2011-12). If the Rangers consider one off-year to be "playing yourself into a trade", then it's no surprise why this team has had little team success in the last 75 years.

Every single player in the history of the NHL, not named Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe, and the other all time greats, has had an off year. How many of you fans were calling for Mike Richter to be dumped after 1992-93? Even though he was an all-star the year before?

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12-11-2013, 03:16 PM
  #100
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Besides the fact that Sather needs to just go... the team needs an overhaul and a few good drafts. Unfortunately, even if Sather is gone it will never happen because of the two players we have signed to huge contracts.

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