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Has Adam Oates Been Fired Yet????

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12-09-2013, 03:26 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by g00n View Post
Orlov obviously forced the Caps hand with the trade demand through his agent. Whether it came from GMGM or Oates shouldn't matter much because the fact is neither could work together to manage this asset properly.

GMGM clearly wanted to keep Orlov, hence his call-up yo-yo act, but Oates would not or could not play him. Given what we know about the d-men on the roster and how many have played (an NHL high 12) I think it's unlikely that Oates COULD NOT find a spot. He probably chose not to, and GMGM scrambled to legally keep Orlov in the Caps system.

As I have said I think GMGM is stuck trying to make this handedness nightmare work. Orlov was almost a casualty of it.

If we want to look big picture then ultimately GMGM is to blame for hiring one inexperienced coach after another and allowing them to walk in with their experimental systems and theories while we waste the careers of some great players.
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
He's not meddlesome. Particular circumstances made him feel it was necessary to force Orlov into the lineup. Yeah, we don't have a way of knowing, but it absolutely does appear to be the case. Look at any of his public comments about Orlov, especially recently and during training camp. There has historically been a clear difference of opinion between him and Oates about Orlov. McPhee said he was done with Hershey three months ago. Now there's a risk of losing a player of whom he probably thinks highly; either he's going to cut his losses and trade Orlov, or make sure he gets into the lineup. If fedfed is right and he's traded soon, then it's the first option (but still McPhee's call to play him). If he isn't, then the promotion last night is probably a sign of Oates coming around. It's unclear if Oates doesn't like him in particular or just didn't like that he preferred the right side. If it's the latter, Orlov playing well on the left should settle the issue.
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Originally Posted by strungout View Post
I want to agree...but the timing of the call up doesn't jive. He's playing because there was tension with the player and agent...along with a time frame for days on the active roster to assure he didn't bolt for the KHL.
You guys all do seem to have a point. GMGM comments I totally forgot about and the agent bringing it up with the article in the post drew attention to the horse and pony show of yo yo ing him.

I do agree GMGM should be railed for consistently hiring inexperienced coaches and I think we know the reason why as it will increase his job security not having to deal with a strong figure who could go above the chain of command or to otherwise make him look bad.

Either way I'm glad he is playing and playing well. He was clearly rusty in the preseason coming off a concussion filled year but in his brief stint he reminds me of why I was so excited about him back a couple years ago.

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12-09-2013, 04:02 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
I'm pretty sure Orlov playing is a strict directive from McPhee.
Meh. Orlov's contract language got him on the roster but Urbom sucking gave Orlov a chance to supplant him as a regular.

I don't think Orlov is getting traded unless it's part of a package deal. Straight up he's unlikely to net strong value and as long as he's getting a legit shot then Gandler can chill.

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12-11-2013, 08:52 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Langway View Post
Meh. Orlov's contract language got him on the roster but Urbom sucking gave Orlov a chance to supplant him as a regular.

I don't think Orlov is getting traded unless it's part of a package deal. Straight up he's unlikely to net strong value and as long as he's getting a legit shot then Gandler can chill.
With him getting promoted to the top 4 and playing well I see no way in hell the Caps trade him.

Gandler is a blowhard anyhow so he can just be ignored.

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12-11-2013, 09:17 AM
  #379
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Gandler is a blowhard. Orlov playing on the 2nd pair means no more than Urbom, Schmidt or Strachan playing that role. I think we all would like a veteran in that role. Orlov being in that role may well have been the plan all along. I think we need to see him there in February still before we can conclude a whole lot.

I think the only keeper of the others is Schmidt

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12-11-2013, 10:30 AM
  #380
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I don't know how to feel about Oates. I like his system. I like the fact that he can get through to the players. But I do not like the fact that he can't seem to motivate the players to play with energy.

Last night's game was prime example of this. They come out flat in the 1st (as they always do) and rev up once they're down. They tie the game, and get complacent again. He needs to figure out how to get them to play at a high energy level from the start. If he can do that, this team can be quite good.

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12-11-2013, 10:41 AM
  #381
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I honestly don't know what to think of Oates. I can't tell if he's riding the coattails of Ovechkin or actually making sound coaching decisions. I think the former at this point until I'm astounded by a solid playoff run with a Stanley Cup.

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12-12-2013, 08:09 AM
  #382
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Oates is not the coach Bruce was but he is a vast improvement over Hunter in my eyes.

Yes under Hunter we made it to the 2nd round but thats what coin-flip hockey will do for you.

Oates has brought some semblence of life back to this team after a couple years of playing trap hockey. In terms of style (not the level of play) we are closer to the Blackhawks/Penguins than we are to the Blues/Kings and I prefer that personally.

Either style can win if you execute it correctly and get the right guys on a roll at the right time.

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12-12-2013, 08:17 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Oates is not the coach Bruce was but he is a vast improvement over Hunter in my eyes.

Yes under Hunter we made it to the 2nd round but thats what coin-flip hockey will do for you.

Oates has brought some semblence of life back to this team after a couple years of playing trap hockey. In terms of style (not the level of play) we are closer to the Blackhawks/Penguins than we are to the Blues/Kings and I prefer that personally.

Either style can win if you execute it correctly and get the right guys on a roll at the right time.
if people here think Erat and Orlov asking for trades is a distraction, just imagine the distraction that Ovechkin playing 16:00 or less a game and scoring 20 goals would be like.

I don't think there is anyway that Ovechkin and Hunter hockey could coexist.

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12-12-2013, 08:30 AM
  #384
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We can bash Hunter Hockey all we want because it neutered our stars and was generally boring, but it did get us out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Hunter at least addressed the defensive issues this team faces though his methods were drastic and a compensation for NOT HAVING TRUE TOP PAIR DEFENSEMEN.

If you have solid defensive defensemen you don't need to enlist your forwards to do nearly as much defensively. Players can play their positions and you have more options.

This goes back to GMGM. There's a reason the goalies under BB and Oates, who open the system back up, get peppered every night. And there's a reason Hunter Hockey's band aid improved the team's playoff fortunes.

If GMGM is serious about this team he has to cut some of the dead weight and shore up the defense, even if it means spending market value or better on some top pair d-men. Until then it will be the same story every year no matter how many goals Ovechkin scores, because you can't rely on systems or hot goalies or young defensemen of the week to bail you out every night.

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12-12-2013, 08:39 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
if people here think Erat and Orlov asking for trades is a distraction, just imagine the distraction that Ovechkin playing 16:00 or less a game and scoring 20 goals would be like.

I don't think there is anyway that Ovechkin and Hunter hockey could coexist.
Also people think this Erat and Orlov this is a huge black eye for Oates but we forget Hunter's massive issues with communication and his extensive doghouse that included Ward, Halpern, Erskine, Knuble, Ovechkin, Semin, MP, Green, Hamrlik etc. We forget Keith Aucoin on PP #1 along with Wideman.

I loved Hunter as a player but HATED him as a coach. But to me the end does not justify the means in regards to the playoff "success" we had.

Oates has made it at least fun to watch Caps hockey again to some level when we were pre-trap.

Oates may have a doghouse but he is reasonable enough to let bygones be bygones.

Oates preaches finishing checks, playing physical etc...Hunter tells Erskine he "lunges for hits" and that he plays with too much energy. Then doesn't talk to him for 6 months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g00n View Post
We can bash Hunter Hockey all we want because it neutered our stars and was generally boring, but it did get us out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Hunter at least addressed the defensive issues this team faces though his methods were drastic and a compensation for NOT HAVING TRUE TOP PAIR DEFENSEMEN.

If you have solid defensive defensemen you don't need to enlist your forwards to do nearly as much defensively. Players can play their positions and you have more options.

This goes back to GMGM. There's a reason the goalies under BB and Oates, who open the system back up, get peppered every night. And there's a reason Hunter Hockey's band aid improved the team's playoff fortunes.

If GMGM is serious about this team he has to cut some of the dead weight and shore up the defense, even if it means spending market value or better on some top pair d-men. Until then it will be the same story every year no matter how many goals Ovechkin scores, because you can't rely on systems or hot goalies or young defensemen of the week to bail you out every night.
People go back to this all the time in regards to Hunter's playoff success but I will say this. Holtby outplayed Thomas and thats why we won.

We got outchanced, outshot and out Corsi'd/Fenwicked that whole series but Holtby was strong in net.

We played better against the Rangers the next round I will give him that but we didn't have a 2:1 PP disparity either like Oates faced.

We do need an experienced top 4 dman to maximize our chances and hopefully we will obtain one before the TDL.

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12-12-2013, 08:44 AM
  #386
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Hunter's system might have been awful, but Hunter the coach wasn't too bad. That was the only time I've seen our players give full effort for 60 minutes. Right now they start off ever game flat and they get complacent if they have the lead. This was an issue under Bruce as well. Not so much under Hunter. And the reason they gave full effort was because, IMO, they were scared ****less of Dale. These guys need a coach who they're afraid of, not someone that befriends them and coddles them.

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12-12-2013, 08:48 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by tycoonheart View Post
Hunter's system might have been awful, but Hunter the coach wasn't too bad. That was the only time I've seen our players give full effort for 60 minutes. Right now they start off ever game flat and they get complacent if they have the lead. This was an issue under Bruce as well. Not so much under Hunter. And the reason they gave full effort was because, IMO, they were scared ****less of Dale. These guys need a coach who they're afraid of, not someone that befriends them and coddles them.
This is also deceiving...the reason why this "effort" thing appeared to be the case was b/c Hunter would play our "effort/lack of skill" players (Hendricks and Beagle became household names) 20 minutes a game.

We would get dominated territorially under Hunter unless we fell behind and then we actually tried to score.

If Oates played Beagle, Ward, etc 20 minutes and gave Ovechkin 13 minutes it would appear we would be playing with more effort now too.

I think it had more to do with who they played.

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12-12-2013, 01:05 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
This is also deceiving...the reason why this "effort" thing appeared to be the case was b/c Hunter would play our "effort/lack of skill" players (Hendricks and Beagle became household names) 20 minutes a game.

We would get dominated territorially under Hunter unless we fell behind and then we actually tried to score.

If Oates played Beagle, Ward, etc 20 minutes and gave Ovechkin 13 minutes it would appear we would be playing with more effort now too.

I think it had more to do with who they played.
Hunter vs Oates Playoff TOI

Source: NHL.com

#hunterhockey

Ovechkin TOI/game: 19:51



#oateshandedness

Ovechkin TOI/game: 20:44


Beagle played a lot in the #hunterhockey era because there was no Ribeiro at center like there was for Oates.

I think there was more effort and less lackadaisical under #hunterhockey. I really, really do.

Holtby played for both. LOL

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12-12-2013, 01:39 PM
  #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Hunter vs Oates Playoff TOI

Source: NHL.com

#hunterhockey

Ovechkin TOI/game: 19:51



#oateshandedness

Ovechkin TOI/game: 20:44


Beagle played a lot in the #hunterhockey era because there was no Ribeiro at center like there was for Oates.

I think there was more effort and less lackadaisical under #hunterhockey. I really, really do.

Holtby played for both. LOL
Don't try and tell me Hunter didn't love Beagle and Hendricks. I swear those guys had more consistent ice time than Semin and Ovie.

Also I wonder how TOI per game was affected by OT. It seemed like an awful lot of games under Hunter went to OT or 2 OT. Is that stat per 60 minutes? Or just per game?

Under Hunter:

Beagle 18:25
Hendricks 16:05

Under Oates:

Beagle 9:38
Hendricks 10:31

I think there is little doubt Hunter preferred his grinders at least to my eyes.

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12-12-2013, 01:55 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by g00n View Post
We can bash Hunter Hockey all we want because it neutered our stars and was generally boring, but it did get us out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Hunter at least addressed the defensive issues this team faces though his methods were drastic and a compensation for NOT HAVING TRUE TOP PAIR DEFENSEMEN.

If you have solid defensive defensemen you don't need to enlist your forwards to do nearly as much defensively. Players can play their positions and you have more options.

This goes back to GMGM. There's a reason the goalies under BB and Oates, who open the system back up, get peppered every night. And there's a reason Hunter Hockey's band aid improved the team's playoff fortunes.

If GMGM is serious about this team he has to cut some of the dead weight and shore up the defense, even if it means spending market value or better on some top pair d-men. Until then it will be the same story every year no matter how many goals Ovechkin scores, because you can't rely on systems or hot goalies or young defensemen of the week to bail you out every night.
both carlson and green are talked about as possibly bubbling world championship or olympics team every year. that's a top pair defensemen on most teams.


Last edited by newfr4u: 12-12-2013 at 02:01 PM.
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12-12-2013, 01:56 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Don't try and tell me Hunter didn't love Beagle and Hendricks. I swear those guys had more consistent ice time than Semin and Ovie.

Also I wonder how TOI per game was affected by OT. It seemed like an awful lot of games under Hunter went to OT or 2 OT. Is that stat per 60 minutes? Or just per game?

Under Hunter:

Beagle 18:25
Hendricks 16:05

Under Oates:

Beagle 9:38
Hendricks 10:31

I think there is little doubt Hunter preferred his grinders at least to my eyes.
Never said Hunter didn't. In fact I posted that Beagle played more under Hunter and offered a reason why. You insinuated Hunter gave Ovechkin 13 minutes (which I bolded). When I read that my mindset was.......geez maybe BR is right but when I looked Ovechkin TOI average per game was about the same under either coach during the playoffs.

That is all.

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12-12-2013, 02:02 PM
  #392
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both carlson and green are talked about as possibly bubbling world championship or olympics team every year. that's a top pair defensemen on most teams.
Olympics are not the NHL and talk is not performance.

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12-12-2013, 02:05 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Never said Hunter didn't. In fact I posted that Beagle played more under Hunter and offered a reason why. You insinuated Hunter gave Ovechkin 13 minutes (which I bolded). When I read that my mindset was.......geez maybe BR is right but when I looked Ovechkin TOI average per game was about the same under either coach during the playoffs.

That is all.
Gotcha.

The 13 minute game was the one that immediately stuck out in my mind.

But I do think that the team playing harder under hunter thing is a bit misleading b/c Hunter did play "harder workers" more often than Oates did.

It does seem more and more teams are reverting to playing a trapping style of hockey this year however and that worries me. I even notice we are a bit more conservative now too as are teams like the Penguins.

The only team that seems immune to trapping is the Blackhawks. They have enough talent and experience to beat that trap by playing an up tempo game.

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12-12-2013, 02:06 PM
  #394
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Carlson has most definitely been top pairing quality this season. Easily.

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12-12-2013, 02:51 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Gotcha.

The 13 minute game was the one that immediately stuck out in my mind.

But I do think that the team playing harder under hunter thing is a bit misleading b/c Hunter did play "harder workers" more often than Oates did.

It does seem more and more teams are reverting to playing a trapping style of hockey this year however and that worries me. I even notice we are a bit more conservative now too as are teams like the Penguins.

The only team that seems immune to trapping is the Blackhawks. They have enough talent and experience to beat that trap by playing an up tempo game.
The ice time disparity if I remember correctly was pretty game to game. When the caps would be up early, Hunter would ride his defensive stoppers. When the Caps were down a goal he would ride OV. If they were tied. Well you get the idea.

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12-12-2013, 02:56 PM
  #396
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Carlson has most definitely been top pairing quality this season. Easily.
That's one. This season only. Through December 12th. Anyone else? How solid were the d-lines under BB and Hunter? Was there ever a true 1-2 pairing?

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12-12-2013, 03:03 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Don't try and tell me Hunter didn't love Beagle and Hendricks. I swear those guys had more consistent ice time than Semin and Ovie.

Also I wonder how TOI per game was affected by OT. It seemed like an awful lot of games under Hunter went to OT or 2 OT. Is that stat per 60 minutes? Or just per game?

Under Hunter:

Beagle 18:25
Hendricks 16:05

Under Oates:

Beagle 9:38
Hendricks 10:31

I think there is little doubt Hunter preferred his grinders at least to my eyes.
Remember when Hendricks was on the top line for a bit?

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12-12-2013, 03:23 PM
  #398
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Remember when Hendricks was on the top line for a bit?
Yeah, under Oates....

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12-12-2013, 03:28 PM
  #399
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RE: Hunter vs Oates

Another difference I want to stress again is Hunter's doghouse and for everyone bashing on Oates for playing Laich and Brouwer too much or Not Orlov over Orlov (including me) we have to remember Hunter...

Ward on the 4th line for little reason. Aucoin getting prime PP time. Schultz over Erskine. Wideman on PP #1. Knuble banished. Hamrlik was at a total loss as were most of us. MP made 1 mistake and never saw the ice again. Halpern had a turnover in a regular season game vs the Jets that we were up 3-0 and then lost in OT...he didn't see the ice again until Beagle broke his ankle in game 6 vs the Rangers. Semin in and out of the doghouse.

It was maddening! On top of it all the doghouse gang didn't really ever get an explanation. Maybe Erskine but then Hunter banished him and didn't say a word to him for the remainder of his tenure.

I think we tend to forget how frustrated we all were over that back then since we are a couple years removed.

Oates on the other hand (and this is just one example) last year ...I remember we were on a tear to climb back into playoff position with Holtby riding a hot streak and playing every game. We had a crucial game ahead and Oates started Neuvirth out of nowhere.

When asked about why he didn't go with Holtby Oates replied something like "Neuvy needs to feel as if part of the team"

I don't agree with everything Oates does but then again I never agreed with everything any coach has ever done. But I do respect that he tries not to alienate players if he can for the most part.

He could have easily held a grudge against Erat.

When Green had a tough game last year (islander game that cost us with horrible turnover) if Hunter was coach I suspect Green would be demoted and benched. Oates put him right back out there.

Oates is like the QB who throws to a receiver. If the receiver drops the ball Oates will go right back to him next play. Hunter would not look his way the rest of the game.

I think thats a crucial difference and I like that. Oates realizes he will need these players later on and they will need to know he has confidence in them.

In this sense I think Oates has made a lot of progress and has restored some joy back into the game for most of these guys.

I would think most people would prefer that their boss has faith in them and displays it. Ovechkins turn around is a prime example. "He have belief in me"

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12-12-2013, 03:35 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by g00n View Post
We can bash Hunter Hockey all we want because it neutered our stars and was generally boring, but it did get us out of the 1st round of the playoffs..
so did boudreau. hunter hockey was not sustainable. if you want to return to team konowalchuk and play that kind of game, ok. you just cant keep players like ovechkin and backstrom and green happy doing that. trade them off and replace them with players like Callahan and Kesler.

us old timers remember what happens when you have a thouroughbred like say....hall of fame quarterback sonny jurgensen and bring in a coach that wants to run the ball 3 times and punt and play a field position game waiting for a turnover. its not sustainable.

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