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Carlson on the PP

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Old
12-13-2013, 07:39 AM
  #101
BobRouse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Well, I get your point, but I think there's a big qualitative difference there. That Detroit core consisted of individually well-rounded players; at the very least Fedorov and Lidstrom definitely were, I'm not sure when exactly Yzerman came around.

On the other hand, Caps' core players have had major flaws from the get go, well maybe except Backstrom, more or less. So I think it's a lot more relevant to question whether they have the right skillset to get it done.

You know what's interesting about that Detroit comparison? One guy you don't mention is Paul Coffey. Won the Norris with Detroit, scored like a maniac, amazing offensive D but flawed. They got to the finals with him but the Devils just strangled them. Well, in the end they traded him, and the rest is history (didn't mean it as a pun, lol).
You can mention Coffey. But you can also mention Larry Murphy. Both played for Pitt and Detroit and were offensive D. But Coffey is a poor example in all honesty as he is a 4 time Stanley Cup winner. He wasnt the reason Detroit didn't win.

Murphy had a less stellar offensive AND defensive career here. He was a Norris candidate in 86-87 but Green was twice and also had 2 1st team all stars.

Throw Gonchar in for good measure. Its important to have a mix of ingredients and Green is important.

Murphy, Coffey and Gonchar had similar games (O minded D) to Green and won 10 cups between them. 2 are HOFs. All had deficincies in their D that got better over time. Green at the same age has already accomplished more than Murphy and Gonchar.

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01-03-2014, 02:10 PM
  #102
Darth Yoda
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John Carlson and the PP

He is playing the most PP of his career but his scoring has fallen of the face of the earth the last month or so. Why is he still there?


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 01-03-2014 at 02:31 PM.
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01-03-2014, 02:12 PM
  #103
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Because Mike "Odd man break" Green hasn't provide much either.

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01-03-2014, 03:04 PM
  #104
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Because Green is not going to stay here after his current contract expires. There will be teams offering him similar contracts and Capitals propably aren't willing to do that.

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01-03-2014, 03:27 PM
  #105
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Green has 11 powerplay points in Carlson's 6, with almost identical time on the powerplay. There's no real justification for Carlson at this point, especially given that Green has started to put the puck in the back of the net and Carlson's hot streak is over.

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Originally Posted by trick9 View Post
Because Green is not going to stay here after his current contract expires. There will be teams offering him similar contracts and Capitals propably aren't willing to do that.
That's so incredibly dumb that it might actually be the logic they're using.

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01-04-2014, 10:43 PM
  #106
Darth Yoda
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After Greens two goals tonight, not on the PP mind you, what is the power balance between him and Carlson at now? Does the latter play allright there but just dont get the points to show for it?

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01-04-2014, 11:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
After Greens two goals tonight, not on the PP mind you, what is the power balance between him and Carlson at now? Does the latter play allright there but just dont get the points to show for it?
It would take 20 goals to even be in the ballpark to balance out Mike Greens play this year.

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03-09-2014, 11:18 AM
  #108
Dream Big
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Looking at John Carlson's power play points. 14 and noticed that without PPP his point production would be the same as Alzner's.

John Carlson 205:39 Minutes of power play time 14 points
GP G A PTS +/- PIM SOG % PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG TOI/G PROD
65 10 18 28 -5 18 175 5.7 5 9 0 1 0 24:39 57:13

Karl Alzner 4:33 Minutes of power play time 1 point
GP G A PTS +/- PIM SOG % PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG TOI/G PROD
65 2 12 14 -7 26 78 2.6 0 1 0 2 1 20:48 96:33

Not sure why the columns don't copy and paste in alignment? They look right in preview.

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Old
03-09-2014, 11:39 AM
  #109
RandyHolt
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Alzner's keeping up that offensive push we saw late in the playoffs last year

Take away all players PPPs and I bet its ugly. Ovi went half the year with 1 ES assist, possibly less than Alzner.

To Carlson, I don't see him jumping up in the play and maybe he is asked to just be a steady eddie type. Our teams offensive strength is on the right side but man oh man is our offense just ugly at ES, Ward and Chimera aside.

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03-09-2014, 11:56 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Big View Post
Looking at John Carlson's power play points. 14 and noticed that without PPP his point production would be the same as Alzner's.

John Carlson 205:39 Minutes of power play time 14 points
GP G A PTS +/- PIM SOG % PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG TOI/G PROD
65 10 18 28 -5 18 175 5.7 5 9 0 1 0 24:39 57:13

Karl Alzner 4:33 Minutes of power play time 1 point
GP G A PTS +/- PIM SOG % PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG TOI/G PROD
65 2 12 14 -7 26 78 2.6 0 1 0 2 1 20:48 96:33

Not sure why the columns don't copy and paste in alignment? They look right in preview.
Yeah, Carlson's ES production has fallen off horribly this year. His possession stats are also pretty rough.

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03-09-2014, 12:00 PM
  #111
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A defenseman's ES production is going to be very highly dependent on the forwards' production. Given how much the forwards suck at ES this season, it's no surprise his numbers are down.

I think on a solid ES team, Carlson is a 10/40 player.

I'm also a fan of him on PP1 over Green. While Green is more skilled on the puck and a more creative passer, Carlson is less prone to brain farts, has a heavier and more accurate shot, and his usage lessens the team's dependency on Green, making a potential trade more palatable.

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03-09-2014, 12:05 PM
  #112
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So are people still not up in arms about Carlson on the top PP unit?

As I said at the time, give him some time in that role....to me, he has gotten better and looks a bit more relaxed there....

Things I like about it and to repeat myself (in some cases)...

The PP does not run through the point position with this team. People often refereed to 52 as the QB but to me, that is Backstrom. The play is setup from the left handed player on the right wing half-boards, generally 19. The point is just an option for that player.

I am of the opinion that Carlson is better than 52 at making himself available for that option. He seems to be in a good spot where his teammates can use him and he generally makes very quick decisions when he gets it. That unit doesnt "need" a slick stick-handle or guy holding it to pick a corner....they want quick pass (likely to 8) or a hard shot that generates rebounds, etc. Not that 52 cant do these things but he has also shown he likes to hold the puck and look for plays too...and again, I think they want more meat/potatoes in that role

Carlson makes very sharp and quick passes when they regroup and have the full length of the ice to skate (on the PP to be clear). He often makes that first pass just a few strides from behind is own net and still kind of deep in his own circles, catching a guy in stride...often still in the D zone or just entering neutral ice. 52 generally makes that pass a little later and to me, it often breaks the flow. How often have we seen 52 skate from behind his net...not pass as he is around his own blueline....then circle back to regroup, and how often do we see Carlson do that.

Given some space Carlson can lug the puck too but with space he isnt 52, thats for sure. That said....how often do teams give 52 space, especially in the playoffs. 52 is an effective player with space, which is exactly the reason teams play him how they do....it works. He is much less effective with a body on him, even when on his game. Add the fact that it seems to take his out of his game...and it is no secret teams do this...and will continue

52 has much softer hands than Carlson, no question...but he has softer hands than almost any blueliner. Carlson has good enough hands for a PP player, especially when combined with the rest of his game. I find it interesting that his overall hands are probably just "good" while his hand/eye is actually very good....if that makes sense. I actually wish he wouldnt knock down so many elevated puck in the D zone or on the dump in....too much risk of unwelcomed bounces

I also think that having 52 with the 2nd unit is a nice fit. Ive mentioned this several times but just as the top unit doesnt "need" his softer hands and play making....the 2nd unit benefits from it. That unit seems to really force the play low and often get into a corner battle with 2 defenders....getting the puck to 52 in those situations usually creates a good chance as he has a little time to do his thing.

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Old
03-09-2014, 12:09 PM
  #113
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I barely watch the games lately, but I haven't seen any notable improvement from him on the PP. Green is clearly the better option. However, I'm fine with sticking with Carlson because he's the franchise #1RD at this point, and Green is out with injuries half the time anyway.

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03-09-2014, 12:14 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
I barely watch the games lately, but I haven't seen any notable improvement from him on the PP. Green is clearly the better option. However, I'm fine with sticking with Carlson because he's the franchise #1RD at this point, and Green is out with injuries half the time anyway.
so....you barely watch games lately but....

52 is "clearly" the better option and you havent seen any notable improvement form Carlson...interesting how that works

Caps unit is what, 23%....only thing clear to me is, thats good and Carlson is a under appreciated part of that

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03-09-2014, 12:15 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
I barely watch the games lately, but I haven't seen any notable improvement from him on the PP. Green is clearly the better option. However, I'm fine with sticking with Carlson because he's the franchise #1RD at this point, and Green is out with injuries half the time anyway.
Carlson's gotten much more decisive with the puck, and moves it a lot quicker than he did earlier in the season. There's been a very visible improvement by him.

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03-09-2014, 12:15 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
so....you barely watch games lately but....

52 is "clearly" the better option and you havent seen any notable improvement form Carlson...interesting how that works

Caps unit is what, 23%....only thing clear to me is, thats good and Carlson is a under appreciated part of that
I usually watch when I hear a PP is starting. It's the only entertaining part of their game.

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03-09-2014, 12:51 PM
  #117
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I think where Carlson > Green, is in his passes. One touch, moves it quick to Ovi; but more importantly perhaps, in the wheel house; less thinking more doing. Green just seems indecisive and slow to do the obvious. He has to get the puck back Nick, or over to Ovi quickly. That's it. But he seems to overthink it and plays slow. I wish a reporter would ask Oates about it.

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03-12-2014, 03:36 AM
  #118
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Still like Green more on the PP.

+Green creates more space for Backstrom with his movements. Everything is a little more clogged on Backstrom's side when Carlson is on the PP.

+Green's passes are better, specifically the ones to Ovi. Carlson occasionally gives him a great pass, but puts it in his feet more often than not.

+Green's shot finds its way through traffic far more often, and for whatever reason, gets deflected in far more often. Probably because he doesn't wind up for huge slapshots 100% of the time, like Carlson does.

-Green is slightly more susceptible to SHG's... but only slightly, as we still give them up at an incredible rate.



Carlson is, no doubt, our #1 defenseman... but I still don't agree with him on the PP over Green and I never will. With Oates' system de-emphasizing defenseman jumping up in the play, and taking Green off the PP... he's essentially a $900k defenseman making $6m.

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03-12-2014, 06:16 AM
  #119
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if the caps, not just oates, thinks that Carlson is better on the PP than Green, the caps need to move Green. when they get a late pp down one goal and Green isn't on the ice, I just shake my head.

It just seems odd. Green has 6 more points in 8 fewer games while not getting much pp time for a while now. Who doesn't use their top scoring defenseman on their 1st pp unit?

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03-12-2014, 10:50 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
if the caps, not just oates, thinks that Carlson is better on the PP than Green, the caps need to move Green. when they get a late pp down one goal and Green isn't on the ice, I just shake my head.

It just seems odd. Green has 6 more points in 8 fewer games while not getting much pp time for a while now. Who doesn't use their top scoring defenseman on their 1st pp unit?
Oates, that's who. Suuuuperrrr genius.

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03-12-2014, 11:34 AM
  #121
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I'm not sure what the justification is now since the TDL has passed and Green was not moved (however unlikely that may have been due to $$$). If they weren't grooming Carlson to take over that spot because Green was leaving, then they see some massive deficit in Green's PP performance. His passing is OK, but for a rationale I would guess the micromanaging Oates coaching squad probably timed Carlson and Green in recovering dumped pucks and found that X amount of seconds of PP time per game were being lost because Greenloaf dogged it, or didn't keep the puck in, etc.

What other explanation is there short of lead in the HC office water fountain?

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03-12-2014, 11:58 AM
  #122
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Voted Most likely to think the puck is on their blade, and isn't - leading to shorties.....

Chicken Dinner Mike Green

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03-12-2014, 02:35 PM
  #123
Mothra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaCap View Post
Still like Green more on the PP.

+Green creates more space for Backstrom with his movements. Everything is a little more clogged on Backstrom's side when Carlson is on the PP.
i really dont know what youre seeing there...if anything 52 is stationary without the puck, far more than Carlson. With the puck 52 moves more, but not without it....at least when the zone is established.

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03-12-2014, 06:39 PM
  #124
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Green needs to be back on the powerplay, Carlson is our best dman, but Green adds such a bigger threat than Carlson for the powerplay imo. I'd also like to see Carlson not play the entire powerplay like he seems to have been as of late, Ovechkin for sure, Carlson, no, Green is better. I'd also like to see Orlov on the powerplay more, but that won't happen. :/

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03-12-2014, 06:52 PM
  #125
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Green IS a better option on PP. That's kind of obvious for any non-biased observer.

It seems that Oates views PP time as some sort of reward for ES play, and Carlson is staying on PP1 as "more deserving". At least , that's the only explanation I can come up with.

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