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Study on feasability of return of MLB to MTL (UPD Post #70)

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Old
12-12-2013, 04:18 PM
  #101
DJ Breadman
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
No one is/was a more die-hard Expo fan than me, but the realist in me sees so many cracks in this report. Many on here have already pointed out the trouble with getting public funding and the incompetence surrounding infrastructure projects in the province.

But for me, the synopsis has far too many key points that surround Montreal being a poor cousin and relying on a revenue sharing to survive. I can't see MLB jumping at the chance to return to a failed market whose sales pitch is that other profitable teams should be able to prop them up enough.

MLBs economic structure is off the rails and isn't conducive to markets like Montreal as it currently stands. Start talking cap and maybe.
Actually baseball is doing great right now, I watched a show recently and there was a suggestion the tv rights regional and otherwise may pass football in 10 - 15 years time, look at the dogers sale, all about regional tv rights. The stations love baseball becaucse it's so much content 162 games, also ratings are up as a whole

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12-12-2013, 04:43 PM
  #102
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Project is viable. Private sector assumes cost of buying team in full, but gov' would need to pay for 66% of the stadium. Private sector would run the stadium, but gov would own it. Gov investement would be made up in full in 8 years via taxes and fiscality, and then would be profitable. Full project costs: roughly 1B. Team costs 525M, stadium 500M.
This sounds like private sector wants to put the biggest risks on the population as usual.

If the team does not work, owners can sell/move the franchise elsewhere and recoup their investment while the city will be stuck with another elephant stadium. This also puts a ton of bargaining power in the hands of private sector - govt don't want to lower taxes? We move the team. Don't want to build a new stadium in a few years? We move the team.

I want private sector to assume all risks which means buy team and stadium - not a single public dollar for this madness. I'm willing to give them some tax relief in the short term as jobs will be created but otherwise good luck, you are on your own.

Saput got an MLS team and built the stadium, Habs same thing. Find an owner willing to do both or no deal.

If they are so confident Baseball can work in Montreal, then take the risk.

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12-12-2013, 05:02 PM
  #103
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so MTL should get a baseball team as soon as we find someone with a few billions to spend and then MTL must find the money for a new stadium, then MTL must buy a team. That is like saying I should be a millionaire just as soon as I make a million dollars.
ALL of this today is all BS.

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12-12-2013, 05:03 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
No one is/was a more die-hard Expo fan than me, but the realist in me sees so many cracks in this report. Many on here have already pointed out the trouble with getting public funding and the incompetence surrounding infrastructure projects in the province.

But for me, the synopsis has far too many key points that surround Montreal being a poor cousin and relying on a revenue sharing to survive. I can't see MLB jumping at the chance to return to a failed market whose sales pitch is that other profitable teams should be able to prop them up enough.

MLBs economic structure is off the rails and isn't conducive to markets like Montreal as it currently stands. Start talking cap and maybe.
They did it with Washington and it's a success. After Montreal, there aren't a lot bigger markets available for a sport team. The idea is to move a team from let's say Tampa to a bigger market like Montreal. As for the study it isn't half as bad as I thought it would be. They're comparing what a new stadium did to Minny and it's pretty good.

With all that said, I don't want a single cent of public funding going to billionaires while there are so many cuts in education, health care, pensions, etc.

Also, the idea to play in the same division as Boston, NY and even TO is ludicrous... talk about small markets not being able to survive against titans.

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12-12-2013, 05:12 PM
  #105
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http://articles.latimes.com/2000/aug/06/sports/sp-65447

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12-12-2013, 06:27 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by persh View Post
This sounds like private sector wants to put the biggest risks on the population as usual.

If the team does not work, owners can sell/move the franchise elsewhere and recoup their investment while the city will be stuck with another elephant stadium. This also puts a ton of bargaining power in the hands of private sector - govt don't want to lower taxes? We move the team. Don't want to build a new stadium in a few years? We move the team.

I want private sector to assume all risks which means buy team and stadium - not a single public dollar for this madness. I'm willing to give them some tax relief in the short term as jobs will be created but otherwise good luck, you are on your own.

Saput got an MLS team and built the stadium, Habs same thing. Find an owner willing to do both or no deal.

If they are so confident Baseball can work in Montreal, then take the risk.
lol, no he didn't. The Quebec provincial gov't paid the entire cost of the expansion to MLS size, which cost more money than the original building of the stadium.

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12-12-2013, 06:33 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
They did it with Washington and it's a success. After Montreal, there aren't a lot bigger markets available for a sport team. The idea is to move a team from let's say Tampa to a bigger market like Montreal. As for the study it isn't half as bad as I thought it would be. They're comparing what a new stadium did to Minny and it's pretty good.

With all that said, I don't want a single cent of public funding going to billionaires while there are so many cuts in education, health care, pensions, etc.

Also, the idea to play in the same division as Boston, NY and even TO is ludicrous... talk about small markets not being able to survive against titans.
lol wut

The Tampa Bay Rays get 16,000 people a game. Wins since 2008: 97 (won the pennant, 84, 96, 91, 90, 92. Two division titles and two wild card appearances.

This small market stuff is crap. Baseball is LOADED. The Seattle ****ing Mariners got a $3billion cable deal and they haven't made the playoffs since 2001. 42% of revenues goes to player salaries. Gary Bettman would kill his children's puppies for that kind of split.

Every single team in baseball can afford a $100 million contract.

RDS has jack to show in the next couple of years, TSN even less. Think they're going to pass up the fortune Rogers is making on a below .500 Jays team?

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12-12-2013, 06:41 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
No one is/was a more die-hard Expo fan than me, but the realist in me sees so many cracks in this report. Many on here have already pointed out the trouble with getting public funding and the incompetence surrounding infrastructure projects in the province.

But for me, the synopsis has far too many key points that surround Montreal being a poor cousin and relying on a revenue sharing to survive. I can't see MLB jumping at the chance to return to a failed market whose sales pitch is that other profitable teams should be able to prop them up enough.

MLBs economic structure is off the rails and isn't conducive to markets like Montreal as it currently stands. Start talking cap and maybe.
that's not the sales pitch. they intentionally made the business case to be as conservative as possible to show what a slam dunk it is - do you REALLY think a team in a pretty, open-air downtown ballpark can only draw 2.3 million? The Expos drew that in a *****ing track stadium in the ghetto in 1983, when the only team drawing 3 million was the Dodgers.

Montreal is the only market, and it's not even close, that may actually pay money into the revenue sharing pot. Oakland and Tampa are revenue sharing teams forever. No other US city has a chance of being as good as those two.

I think public funding is BS, but there's an argument to be made that giving Quebec City a hockey arena for free entitles the city that paid for that to something, and they are definitely better off throwing $200 million on a new ballpark than on a new roof for the world's biggest toilet bowl/track stadium.

I've also posted above how I think you're wrong regarding the economic model. The only other thing I can think you don't like is the idea of putting the expos in the AL East to capitalize on rivalries (and therefore travelling fans) from NY, Boston and Toronto. That's just common sense.

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12-12-2013, 06:47 PM
  #109
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If the government has 600 million to throw away, I'd rather they invest on something more interesting, like an extension of the Montreal metro, hiring more professors at the big three research universities, etc.

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12-12-2013, 07:05 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If the government has 600 million to throw away, I'd rather they invest on something more interesting, like an extension of the Montreal metro, hiring more professors at the big three research universities, etc.
So throw away the chance at building infrastructure, increasing economic activity, putting Montreal on the map and bringing back a team that was once fairly profitable?

Also this city needs a new 50k+ stadium. Big O still the most notable landmark in this city as per study's done outside Montreal recently. Impact can play big games there, so can the allouetes and just imagine a 50k+ outdoor concert or rave in the stadium.

No you rather give the funding to our corrupted universities or garbage public transport to pay more workers alot of money so that they wont let us ride buses if we don't speak french. Why not just use the money on roads and split it right away amongst the scammers being questioned in the commission carbonneau?


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12-12-2013, 07:07 PM
  #111
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A cool dream but really I don't think the audience would be there.

1. Nobody plays baseball in Quebec anymore. All the new arrivals play soccer and parents would rather send kids to a soccer field than a baseball field.

2. The truth of the matter is, even when the Expos had a great team in 94, they had trouble filling the place. Even in the 80s attendances were not great.

3. The glout of the new citizen of Montreal love soccer and they are the ones making the MLS a success. There's no passion from them for Baseball.

4. The people just spent 400 million on a new arena in QC. We could say "yea but Montreal can get some $$$ too!" but it would be painful giving away another 600 million with less chance of success given the state of baseball in this province. With hockey, it's a frantic passion, people will say yes regardless.

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12-12-2013, 07:36 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
A cool dream but really I don't think the audience would be there.

1. Nobody plays baseball in Quebec anymore. All the new arrivals play soccer and parents would rather send kids to a soccer field than a baseball field.

2. The truth of the matter is, even when the Expos had a great team in 94, they had trouble filling the place. Even in the 80s attendances were not great.

3. The glout of the new citizen of Montreal love soccer and they are the ones making the MLS a success. There's no passion from them for Baseball.

4. The people just spent 400 million on a new arena in QC. We could say "yea but Montreal can get some $$$ too!" but it would be painful giving away another 600 million with less chance of success given the state of baseball in this province. With hockey, it's a frantic passion, people will say yes regardless.
1. Not true. Baseball has experienced a ressurgence in membership over the last 5 years, strangely enough. And while it is true that soccer in the most played sport in this province, it doesn't mean that it's translating into soccer fans. Case and point Impact.

2. Agree 100%. People have a short memory

3. False. The Impact is not a 'great success'. The organisstion can't find more than 8000 season ticket holders. It is a relative success, and to me, still too much of a novelty to be so assertive.

4. Govt should not have financed the arena in Quebec. I'm appalled that the Habs never got that help, and are still paying mucho taxes to the city, while a regional arena will get all the breaks. In the baseball case, I say no to the financial help.

Bell is a good idea now that it's left hung to dry. And also to get even with Rogers.

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Old
12-12-2013, 08:09 PM
  #113
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Saw this. Not sure where they will put the parking other than 20 floors underground, but access to this area would be a nightmare given the proposed road reconfig.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3214073...7638610938065/

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12-12-2013, 10:43 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ScottFC View Post
So throw away the chance at building infrastructure, increasing economic activity, putting Montreal on the map and bringing back a team that was once fairly profitable?

Also this city needs a new 50k+ stadium. Big O still the most notable landmark in this city as per study's done outside Montreal recently. Impact can play big games there, so can the allouetes and just imagine a 50k+ outdoor concert or rave in the stadium.

No you rather give the funding to our corrupted universities or garbage public transport to pay more workers alot of money so that they wont let us ride buses if we don't speak french. Why not just use the money on roads and split it right away amongst the scammers being questioned in the commission carbonneau?
OK --- universities and infrastructure are corrupt, so we should fund professional sports !!!

There's no corruption in major league baseball, and not one person is overpaid or speaks a language other than English.

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12-13-2013, 05:07 AM
  #115
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The Expos were one of the best drawing teams in baseball from 79-83, I don't get where this notion that they didn't draw well comes from.

They also drew well in a track stadium in a crappy neighborhood, so you know, if they had that downtown ballpark they always should have had they're probably still in Montreal.

Quote:
1. Not true. Baseball has experienced a ressurgence in membership over the last 5 years, strangely enough. And while it is true that soccer in the most played sport in this province, it doesn't mean that it's translating into soccer fans. Case and point Impact.
Soccer is easy for women and kids to play. It's been the most played sport in America since the 1970s, you think it's even half as popular as football or baseball? Or even basketball?

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12-13-2013, 08:11 AM
  #116
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The Rays will not be staying in Tampa...a very good team and cannot draw fans...interesting...

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12-13-2013, 09:54 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
The Expos were one of the best drawing teams in baseball from 79-83, I don't get where this notion that they didn't draw well comes from.

They also drew well in a track stadium in a crappy neighborhood, so you know, if they had that downtown ballpark they always should have had they're probably still in Montreal.
It's not 1978-1983 anymore. That was thirty years ago, when the city of Montreal had a very different population. In particular, a lot of WASP and Jewish people have since left the city.

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12-13-2013, 05:41 PM
  #118
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It's not 1978-1983 anymore. That was thirty years ago, when the city of Montreal had a very different population. In particular, a lot of WASP and Jewish people have since left the city.
Well, for one, that's not what Kimota said. Kimota said they didn't draw well. That's false, they were one of the best drawing teams in the National League.

Also, francophones support baseball. The overwhelming majority of MLB players from Quebec are francophones, baseball has been played in the francophone community since the 1850s. I totally reject the idea francos don't care about baseball. If they didn't care then Expos baseball would never have been successful at all, since even in the 60s francos were no less than 60% of the population.

That being said, the anglo community in Quebec is larger now than it was in 1981. As a % of the population it has dropped, but there are 60,000 more Quebecers who speak it as a home language than in 1981. There's really no correlation between Quebec bleeding English speakers and the team's fortunes, it has much more to do with stadium and on field issues. Probably the most painful effect language has had on the team was the difficulty in selling two packages of broadcast rights in Quebec (which also hurt the Habs - they had half as many games on TV as the Leafs did in the 70s). That's probably not a problem in today's market and even if it was, then just don't sell English rights like the Habs did for years. It's not the 70s, everybody can watch a game in French now.

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12-13-2013, 06:20 PM
  #119
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lol, no he didn't. The Quebec provincial gov't paid the entire cost of the expansion to MLS size, which cost more money than the original building of the stadium.
You are right, my mistake. Initial build was done by Saputo but seats expansion financed with tax payer money.

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12-13-2013, 07:37 PM
  #120
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lol, no he didn't. The Quebec provincial gov't paid the entire cost of the expansion to MLS size, which cost more money than the original building of the stadium.
No. They paid the stadium renovations (30M). Okay, it was the same amount as the expansion fee but still. And yes, originally, the stadium cost 15 M$. Second part was evaluated at 23M$ and finally cost 30M$.

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12-13-2013, 08:12 PM
  #121
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American League East 2013 Payroll...

Yankees $228,995,945
Boston $158,967,286
Toronto $118,244,039
Baltimore $91,793,333
Tampa $57,030,272

Yeah that seems like a really level playing field Montreal would probably be a bottom-dwelling team 80% of the time.

Until there is a salary cap, I don't want a MLB team - sucks good money out of the city and its citizens to give to uber-millionaire players and billionaire owners.

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12-14-2013, 05:06 AM
  #122
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You are right, my mistake. Initial build was done by Saputo but seats expansion financed with tax payer money.
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American League East 2013 Payroll...

Yankees $228,995,945
Boston $158,967,286
Toronto $118,244,039
Baltimore $91,793,333
Tampa $57,030,272

Yeah that seems like a really level playing field Montreal would probably be a bottom-dwelling team 80% of the time.

Until there is a salary cap, I don't want a MLB team - sucks good money out of the city and its citizens to give to uber-millionaire players and billionaire owners.
You realize that Tampa makes the playoffs every year, right? Sounds like you don't understand economics, baseball, and tourism either.

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12-14-2013, 06:50 AM
  #123
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As long as some owners are willing to take the risk we should not worry about the economic side of things. We should just hope they will come back for us to enjoy. I miss having a home ball club to root for !

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12-14-2013, 09:35 AM
  #124
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saw this. Not sure where they will put the parking other than 20 floors underground, but access to this area would be a nightmare given the proposed road reconfig.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3214073...7638610938065/
stop coq teasing me

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12-14-2013, 10:31 AM
  #125
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1. Not true. Baseball has experienced a ressurgence in membership over the last 5 years, strangely enough. And while it is true that soccer in the most played sport in this province, it doesn't mean that it's translating into soccer fans. Case and point Impact.
Well I find that strange considering I don't know one soul that has their kids play Baseball. Bear in mind, I'm more in an hockey environment over here and parents that have kids that play hockey in the winter usualy have them either play other hockey in the summer or soccer. And girls too.

The only link to Baseball in this province I can see is the dads in their 40s and 50s playing softball. But these are people that grew in the 70s and 80s when Baseball was big and everybody was playing it? It's just not in the culture now.

Quote:
3. False. The Impact is not a 'great success'. The organisstion can't find more than 8000 season ticket holders. It is a relative success, and to me, still too much of a novelty to be so assertive.
Maybe it's the way it is sold on the news and tv show but Impact seem to be successful considering Montreal have just entered the MLS. But the new arrivals in MTL are more attracted to Soccer than Baseball, wouldn't you say?

Quote:
4. Govt should not have financed the arena in Quebec. I'm appalled that the Habs never got that help, and are still paying mucho taxes to the city, while a regional arena will get all the breaks. In the baseball case, I say no to the financial help.
I don't mind how it happened really in QC cause they were asking the province only 200 million compared to a Baseball field where the part of the Province would be 600. It's the city in Quebec that paid the other 200 million and people in the city have no problem with that. Plus you have Peladeau paying 60 for the name and to manage it.

Quote:
Bell is a good idea now that it's left hung to dry. And also to get even with Rogers.
We can only dream but even conglomerates with money like Bell have not become rich by throwing their money away. They have been playing safe and I don't see them going into this gung ho unless it's a sure bet.

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