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MLB Discussion Thread Part III: Jeter announces retirement after 2014

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Old
12-14-2013, 03:49 AM
  #301
Zil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Two things about Cano:

1) Nobody went to Yankees games to see Robinson Cano. Baseball fans are the smartest out of the four major sports. They never liked or were drawn to guys who are nonchalant. Cano could hit .400 with 50 HR every year and it still wouldnt make a difference. Ask any Yankees fan -- MVP voting or not, he was never a leader. He was an add-on. People went to see Don Mattingly win or lose. I'd be shocked if there was a Yankeed fan over 16 years old who told somebody "Hey, let's go to a Yankee game. I just want to see Cano play"

2) Cano has NO October legacy. Nothing. None. Zilch. The 2009 title was ALL A-Rod. His legacy as a Yankee will ALWAYS be 2009, ans some Yankees fans (not me) are willing to overlook the other nine failed seasons/postseasons simply because of 2009.

Again, the guy is an immense talent. But he's also a turd. He was Manny Ramirez lite without the postseason clutch, which is kind of a big thing.
Is it fair to say that you'd rather lose without him than win with him? He's far scarier than any bat left in the Yankee lineup. It'll probably stay that way until they inevitably land Stanton, Trout, and Harper in 2017, '18, and '19.

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12-14-2013, 04:25 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
IHe's far scarier than any bat left in the Yankee lineup.

Since 2011, Cano's wRC+ is 142. Beltran's is 137. Cano is way more valuable but it's because the position he plays. 2nd baseman don't bat like that but there are a handful of outfielders that hit that well. Tex is capable of batting as well as Cano has, though I wouldn't predict that big of a resurgence just like I wouldn't predict Soriano matching his Yankee production from last season, where he was the team's best bat.

Cano would still be the Yankee's best bat if he were on the team but he's nowhere as good as Migs, Trout, or Votto himself (even if he might be more valuable than Votto).

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12-14-2013, 04:37 AM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Two things about Cano:

1) Nobody went to Yankees games to see Robinson Cano. Baseball fans are the smartest out of the four major sports. They never liked or were drawn to guys who are nonchalant. Cano could hit .400 with 50 HR every year and it still wouldnt make a difference. Ask any Yankees fan -- MVP voting or not, he was never a leader. He was an add-on. People went to see Don Mattingly win or lose. I'd be shocked if there was a Yankeed fan over 16 years old who told somebody "Hey, let's go to a Yankee game. I just want to see Cano play"

2) Cano has NO October legacy. Nothing. None. Zilch. The 2009 title was ALL A-Rod. His legacy as a Yankee will ALWAYS be 2009, ans some Yankees fans (not me) are willing to overlook the other nine failed seasons/postseasons simply because of 2009.

Again, the guy is an immense talent. But he's also a turd. He was Manny Ramirez lite without the postseason clutch, which is kind of a big thing.



He was also good in his first postseason appearance with us (04) but yeah your point still stands.

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12-14-2013, 04:43 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
Is it fair to say that you'd rather lose without him than win with him? He's far scarier than any bat left in the Yankee lineup. It'll probably stay that way until they inevitably land Stanton, Trout, and Harper in 2017, '18, and '19.
It's a culture change. The Dynasty Yankees played National League baseball - speed, defense, hustle, plate discipline and fundamentals.

Cano was never the reason why the Yankees won the division. It was never up to him and only him to carry the team. He was like Jeff Kent. The stats are eye-popping but neither were leaders and go-to guys like Sandberg and Pedroia.

I still think Cano is the best 2b in baseball. I'd love to have him back but the money was just ridiculous.

The Yankees need to recreate their bullpen and add a starter. Even if they kept Cano they wouldn't win anything with their current bullpen and rotation.

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12-14-2013, 05:53 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Callahan Auto View Post
Since 2011, Cano's wRC+ is 142. Beltran's is 137. Cano is way more valuable but it's because the position he plays. 2nd baseman don't bat like that but there are a handful of outfielders that hit that well. Tex is capable of batting as well as Cano has, though I wouldn't predict that big of a resurgence just like I wouldn't predict Soriano matching his Yankee production from last season, where he was the team's best bat.
You went back just far enough to grab Beltran's massive 2011, when he posted a .385 OBP. He's dropped 40 points off that in the last two years and is headed into his age 37-39 seasons. Teixeira's numbers have gone steadily downward in every year after 2009, he's heading into his age 34 season, and is coming off an entire year missed due to injuries. Soriano is OBP challenged and like you said, not likely to repeat his second half performance from last year. I don't think any of those guys come close to being the force that Cano is and likely will be for the next few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Callahan Auto View Post
Cano would still be the Yankee's best bat if he were on the team but he's nowhere as good as Migs, Trout, or Votto himself (even if he might be more valuable than Votto).
Agreed, but Cano's still a superstar and a great hitter no matter where he plays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
He was also good in his first postseason appearance with us (04) but yeah your point still stands.
Edit: Nevermind, I'm an idiot.


Last edited by Zil: 12-14-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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12-14-2013, 07:43 AM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil View Post
You went back just far enough to grab Beltran's massive 2011, when he posted a .385 OBP. He's dropped 40 points off that in the last two years and is headed into his age 37-39 seasons. Teixeira's numbers have gone steadily downward in every year after 2009, he's heading into his age 34 season, and is coming off an entire year missed due to injuries. Soriano is OBP challenged and like you said, not likely to repeat his second half performance from last year. I don't think any of those guys come close to being the force that Cano is and likely will be for the next few years.



Agreed, but Cano's still a superstar and a great hitter no matter where he plays.



Baseball Reference tells me that Cano was not in the majors in 2004. It looks like his first strong postseason came in 2007.
He was talking about A-Rod, but his 2004 postseason is notorious for the hand slap more than his production. He was a nobody the last three games of the BoSos series but most Yankees were.

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12-14-2013, 08:19 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
He was talking about A-Rod, but his 2004 postseason is notorious for the hand slap more than his production. He was a nobody the last three games of the BoSos series but most Yankees were.
Ah, my mistake. Yeah, I remember A-Rod's '04 antics.

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12-14-2013, 08:25 AM
  #308
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You win with Cano, not because of him. Have a good career.

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Old
12-14-2013, 09:00 AM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil View Post
You went back just far enough to grab Beltran's massive 2011, when he posted a .385 OBP. He's dropped 40 points off that in the last two years and is headed into his age 37-39 seasons. Teixeira's numbers have gone steadily downward in every year after 2009, he's heading into his age 34 season, and is coming off an entire year missed due to injuries. Soriano is OBP challenged and like you said, not likely to repeat his second half performance from last year. I don't think any of those guys come close to being the force that Cano is and likely will be for the next few years.
I'd expect Beltran's homeruns/slugging to improve since YS is a cakewalk compared to Busch in RF for lefty batters. According to katron.org, he hit around 8 balls that would have been home runs if he were a Yankee playing at home as opposed to a Cardinal. I'm expecting a line like:

.280/.345/.530 with 30 homeruns. That's a little worse than what Cano will put up (.310/.370/.510) but it's not an insane drop.

Tex was definitely dropping off but I could see a resurgence. His BABIP just flat out doesn't make sense past 2010 compared to years before it. Considering his batting average tends to mirror his BABIP, if that goes up to .280 (which is pretty low in general), he could theoretically hit .270/.355/.480. For someone who does a lot of analysis around the numbers, Tex is a really strange case. It seems that he has had some bad luck but there could have been a fundamental change somewhere along the line that affected him.

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12-14-2013, 09:10 AM
  #310
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Actually, now that I think of it. It could totally be the shift that's been destroying Tex. It seemed to be more of a thing with him as he went on and that probably took away a lot of his left field singles.

Hopefully he'll have Ellsbury or Gardner on second more often to keep teams honest.

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12-14-2013, 11:03 AM
  #311
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The Yankees need to stick with the formula that made them a Dynasty -- trade for and sign versatile, disciplined spray hitters who make pitchers work, strong bullpen and a shut down set-up and closer.

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12-14-2013, 04:07 PM
  #312
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What the Yankees did this off season so far is remind me of the glory years, players u might not consider superstars but Vertu good players who will do what it takes to win, good OBP guys, good batting average, dont K.a ton, guys who get on base, mccann, beltran, and ellsbury all scream Cashman guys. the problem though is their is no great starting rotation or dominant bp.

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12-14-2013, 04:37 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
What the Yankees did this off season so far is remind me of the glory years, players u might not consider superstars but Vertu good players who will do what it takes to win, good OBP guys, good batting average, dont K.a ton, guys who get on base, mccann, beltran, and ellsbury all scream Cashman guys. the problem though is their is no great starting rotation or dominant bp.
Hopefully Tanaka gets posted and we can nab him. Also, hopefully Pineda comes back and flashes the dominance he showed in 2011 with the Mariners.

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12-14-2013, 04:51 PM
  #314
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Hopefully Tanaka gets posted and we can nab him. Also, hopefully Pineda comes back and flashes the dominance he showed in 2011 with the Mariners.
I still have high hopes for Pineda, and if the Yankees can land Tanaka, they could be ok going forward as well.. Nova/Pineda/Tanaka are all young.

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12-14-2013, 07:53 PM
  #315
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Twins sign Pelfrey from 11M per over 2 years

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12-14-2013, 09:52 PM
  #316
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Boone Logan to Rockies on a 3 year deal. 16.5 mill.

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12-14-2013, 10:01 PM
  #317
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Boone Logan to Rockies on a 3 year deal. 16.5 mill.
oof, awful lot of money for a loogy

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12-14-2013, 10:18 PM
  #318
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oof, awful lot of money for a loogy

Definitely lot of money.

I'll miss Logan.

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12-15-2013, 02:08 PM
  #319
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Boone Logan to Rockies on a 3 year deal. 16.5 mill.
That's ridiculous. Wow.

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12-15-2013, 02:12 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
oof, awful lot of money for a loogy
Is he really a LOOGY though? 302 ABs against lefties, 208 against righties over the past three years. Not really LOOGY territory, especially considering he held righties to an OPS of .753.

It's still a lot of money for him though.

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12-16-2013, 04:13 PM
  #321
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Sanspo: Rakuten owner Hiroshi Mikitani will allow Masahiro Tanaka to come to the major leagues this winterbit.ly/1gCfwfz

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12-16-2013, 05:01 PM
  #322
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Sanspo: Rakuten owner Hiroshi Mikitani will allow Masahiro Tanaka to come to the major leagues this winterbit.ly/1gCfwfz
That's huge for the yankees. Need pitching.

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12-16-2013, 05:05 PM
  #323
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@AndrewMarchand.. If Tanaka posts, Yankees will be major players for him

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12-16-2013, 05:38 PM
  #324
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@AndrewMarchand.. If Tanaka posts, Yankees will be major players for him
shocking development from marchand

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12-16-2013, 11:38 PM
  #325
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Yankees likely to sign Brian Roberts

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/new_york_yankees/

I was going to post something about brian roberts a couple of days ago except i was caught up with work and my masters work. IF he can stay healthy he is a perfect fit for this ball club. Slide him at 2nd base for 100 games. Kelly Johnson for the other 62 if ARod's suspension is lifted. Great move. Roberts fits in with that team dynamic the yankees wanted to move towards and thats flexibility with speed, good defense, and small ball ability on offense.

Still think they need one more move for the infield if they have room. Looking at Reynolds, Young, or Youkilis.

Tanaka and bullpen help. Would love to get in on Balfour

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