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Old
01-08-2007, 02:28 AM
  #51
Pizza
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Thanks Ola.

I'm not sure which is worse: reading these threads when I'm tired and not being able to respond or reading them when I'm wide awake and wasting my time responding.

I'll try the former.

Any kid in our system right now that belongs in New York is there. Callahan is playing well, but the smart thing to do is keep him where he is.

The simple fact is that waiting for kids to develop takes time and patience. It's frustrating but there it is. The big shocker for me is that the Rangers are doing just that - staying patient.

Everybody wants a different result from the last ten years, but many seem to be advocating the things that did not work in the past: Trade youth, sign every FA, rush kids, etc.

...and a new one: fire a coach that is winning.

Renney may seem like a bit of an odd ball sometimes, but he's winning. And he's doing that with as Ola points out a far from perfect line up. Care to tell us who should replace him?

If anything kills this rebuild, it will be the impatience of Ranger fans.

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01-08-2007, 02:32 AM
  #52
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Anyone know how much longer Malik is signed for? I think he is a waste of space and everytime I see him on the ice standing around, looking for penalties while someone like Pock has to sit I get sick to my stomach. I haven't really had a problem with him until this season and it is just progressing with each game.

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01-08-2007, 04:08 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Oh boy, oh boy, am I glad I missed this thread when I was gone. Why on earth would anyone bump this up?
Haven't you seen "Rocky Balboa"?

This is only round 2 of 10.

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01-08-2007, 11:49 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
Of course some of it's tongue-in-cheek but it's the first time in over a decade that we've had a good coach. Just think of Ron Lowlife and John ****ler.
This is what gets me about all this, is how quickly some forget.

All I can say is be cafeful what you wish for.

Sure Renney has his faults, but I still wouldn't want to see us mess about right now and change things. He's still the man for this job.

And can I say I love Ola He's the most sensible poster on here.

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01-08-2007, 12:00 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by VEGASRANGERFAN View Post
Anyone know how much longer Malik is signed for? I think he is a waste of space and everytime I see him on the ice standing around, looking for penalties while someone like Pock has to sit I get sick to my stomach. I haven't really had a problem with him until this season and it is just progressing with each game.

Don't know, but Pock is better. I'll take his mistakes over Maliks, for sure. Malik I doubt will be back next season, same with Kasper.

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01-08-2007, 12:13 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
If anything kills this rebuild, it will be the impatience of Ranger fans.
See, here's the thing, I don't even know why I posted in this thread in the first place, becasue now I feel like people think I'm upset with Renney simply because of how he has handled his youth. That's just not the case at all.

When we had our fire sale a couple of years ago, I was anxious to see how we would rebuild. I was looking forward to a Tampa Bay-style rebuild, where we sucked for years, waiting for our youth to develop together until they had the chemistry and talent to succeed, and then add veterans as necessary. Instead, I got a little bit of a youth infusion, coupled with the likes of Straka, Malik, Shanahan et al. It's not really what I was hoping for, or what I consider to be a rebuild. Too often the members of this board, myself obviously included, fall into a semantical argument about the word "rebuild." For the people like me, who never really saw a rebuild, we're not convinced that the current team will bring us a Cup within the next three years, and want to sell off our most valuable, older parts for what we consider a true rebuild. In my mind, and the mind of many others, Renney is not the coach and Sather not the GM to lead us through a transition of that degree. So while my viewpoint is often misconstrued as "impatient," for wanting to push the youth now, in reality I'm fully committed to patience, with the understanding that such a rebuild would lead to years of struggles before it paid off.

However, I recognize that this scenario isn't at all realistic. But I'm an idealist, and that's what I hope for. I try not to get into the "rebuild" thing too much, because obviously no one is changing the mind of anyone else.

My problems with Renney are largely separate from any youth-related issue. I do disapprove of how he has handled Prucha this season, and think he should have given Dawes a longer look. But there is not a team out there who hasn't had similar perceived slights against the players from the perspective of the fan base, so I'm absolutely willing to give him a pass in that aspect.

When I look at the Rangers, I see a poorly coached team. I see a lack of discipline, both in terms of players staying in position and taking silly penalties. I see a team that often plays as if they've never skated a game together (top line excluded) because of the overly frequent and often nonsensical lineup changes. I see a team that hold certain players accountable for poor games and mental mistakes (Nylander, Prucha) while letting other go largely unpunished (Malik, Hall). The team is often a walking contradiction. The things that I fail to see- discipline, accountability- are things that I feel the coach is responsible for. Many times in my life I've been in some ways involved with an unruly group who hates playing by the rules of anyone else, only to have a strong leader come in and coax everyone onto the same page. I'm not seeing that with Tom Renney.

And yet, at the end of the day, as you and Ola astutely note, we're winning. But then I ask myself, how much better could we be with a stronger coach? Could we have avoided the seven game skid? Would we be winning the Atlantic, rather than trailing the Devils? Would we know how to play with a lead? Would Malik still be a joke on skates getting 20:00 a night? And the answer is: who knows? But I'm not content with the way the team has performed under Tom, because I honestly feel they are capable of much better.

That being said, while I want Renney gone, I certainly think he deserves to finish out the season and show us what he can do. I think mid-season coaching changes, meant to "shake things up," often do more harm than help. But come next season, unless we've (in my opinion) miraculously made it out of the first round and won a Cup, I'd like to see more of a disciplinarian installed as head coach. If we're not going to rebuild in the truest sense, then we need to get this kicked into high gear within the next two seasons, while we still have Jagr, Straka and Shanny. I simply see too many flaws in Renney the coach to believe that he can take us all the way.


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01-08-2007, 12:24 PM
  #57
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Thou we had the fire sale a couple years ago, we still had Jagr, and really, the kind of rebuild you're talking about won't happen until Jagr and co. is gone. But once Jagr leaves we probably won't have to rebuild that drastically, because we do have a decent core of youth. Unless Sather sees the cup in sight, (in his dreams) and decides to make a run and trade all our youth.

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01-08-2007, 02:34 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by kickice View Post
And can I say I love Ola He's the most sensible poster on here.
I wonder if I have Asberger when I read my post at times.

Though its the web and its hockey -- I think its okey to be a little agitating/exagerate. Its never any personal.

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01-08-2007, 02:50 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
When we had our fire sale a couple of years ago, I was anxious to see how we would rebuild. I was looking forward to a Tampa Bay-style rebuild, where we sucked for years, waiting for our youth to develop together until they had the chemistry and talent to succeed, and then add veterans as necessary. Instead, I got a little bit of a youth infusion, coupled with the likes of Straka, Malik, Shanahan et al. It's not really what I was hoping for, or what I consider to be a rebuild. Too often the members of this board, myself obviously included, fall into a semantical argument about the word "rebuild." For the people like me, who never really saw a rebuild, we're not convinced that the current team will bring us a Cup within the next three years, and want to sell off our most valuable, older parts for what we consider a true rebuild. In my mind, and the mind of many others, Renney is not the coach and Sather not the GM to lead us through a transition of that degree. So while my viewpoint is often misconstrued as "impatient," for wanting to push the youth now, in reality I'm fully committed to patience, with the understanding that such a rebuild would lead to years of struggles before it paid off
TB wasn't a traditional rebuild.They were just putrid and all of the stars were aligned.Vinny Lacavalier was the only high draft pick on that team.Their management made bad trades and bad picks.Look at that roster from 2004.A handful of home grown players

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01-08-2007, 02:51 PM
  #60
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NYR2K2-

I think the biggest reason for why we didn't have a throughout rebuild is because there are never any gaurantees.

If we did that, and lost a lottery, got a 1st overall the wrong year, lost a high draft pick to injurys and stuff like that, it easily goes on 6/7/8 years. If we look some at the the "worst" teams over the years a majority of em didn't suck for 3 years, Atlanta have yet to make a PO's for example, the same with Columbus, and a few others.

The harm that could have been made, at the best maybe 10 straight years without a PO's, and maybe up to 14-15 straight season without the PO's, could potentially be extremely big. We never really became that much of a laughing stock with 7, there were still some excitement with the big UFA's ect to keep the fans exciteted a few month per season atleast...

On Renney and coaching in general, I defenitly belives that Renney have allot of things to prove as a coach. But I don't agree with the timming.

There is a time you stock pile, and there is a time you squeze out everything.

I look at it like we are building on so many levels. We are building a identity in the organization, on all levels. We are creating a system and establishing it. We are building a enviorment were kids can come in and get a fair chance with decent support. We have to bring in the kids at the right time, and make sure that we pay attention to them before they get to the NHL.

I like Renney in that enviorment. And I expect the work we started last season to go on for atleast 3 more years, which is a very reasonable timeframe.

But I can defenitly understand the wishes for a kickass coach at times too, its just that I think we are too fragile as a team for it to payoff, and I also think the timming is wrong.

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01-09-2007, 12:02 AM
  #61
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Much as I would love to see a bunch of hungry young kids flying all over the ice and hitting anything that moves, it's just not realistic.

Especially in New York.

The Rangers as an organization have an obligation to both ice the best team possible while rebuilding at the same time. I know that sounds like a dichotomy but there you have it.

I have many problems with how the Rangers have been run right up till the purge in spring '04. But starting with the trade of Leetch they have done a pretty decent job.

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01-09-2007, 09:56 AM
  #62
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I think Renney is doing a decent job but I wouldn't shed a tear if he was reassigned to assistant coach or somewhere else in the organization. I'm not convinced he's the guy that will bring us over the top. At times it looks like he's learning on the job when it comes to line matching, holding stars accountable, line combos, etc. In fairness though the roster he has is limited especially on the blue line.

I think the problem starts at the top with Dolan. I don't know how involved he is with the Knicks and Rangers these days but I did hear Neil Smith say he was pressured to acquire superstars. He has to let his GMs do their jobs and, better yet, hire the right one to begin with. Sather hasn't accomplished a thing since the Gretzky/Messier days, Scott Layden was a disaster and Isiah Thomas is a joke. The organization (msg) needs a shakeup from the top down.

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01-09-2007, 11:30 AM
  #63
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Only Ranger fans can jump on the coach, players and management with no apparent reason. Could someone more or less clearly formulate what makes him/ her think that the team should be any better than it is now? Is this team worse than in 2004? No. Was last year team much better? Well, may be, but if you get last year Jagr and Lundqvist on this year team it would be better that last year team. What does that have to do with Renney? Is that his fault that Henke is a subpar goalie this season and Jagr is MIA? Is that Renney fault that Shanahan has became what I predicted he would - an aged superstar? What are exactly a blockbuster deals that Slats failed to make? Any examples? Is that Sather fault that Cullen screwed up in NY, Immonen failed to arrive and Prucha disappeared? Is that management fault that Ortmeyer got ill and Ozo got injured over again? Hall was a bust to begin with, but everyone loved him here, is he another Renney fault? Is Orr a real problem? Oh, please...


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01-09-2007, 11:35 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Only Ranger fans can jump on the coach, players and management with no apparent reason. Could someone more or less clearly formulate what makes him/ her think that the team should be any better than it is now? Is this team worse than in 2004? No. Was last year team much better? Well, may be, but if you get last year Jagr and Lundqvist on this year team it would be better that last year team. What does that have to do with Renney? Is that his fault that Henke is a subpar goalie this season and Jagr is MIA? Is that Renney fault that Shanahan has became what I predicted he would - an aged superstar? What are exactly a blockbuster deals that Slats failed to make? Any examples? Is that Sather fault that Cullen screwed up in NY, Immonen failed to arrive and Prucha disappeared? Is that management fault that Ortmeyer got ill and Ozo got injured over again? Hall was a bust to begin with, but everyone loved him here, is he another Renney fault? Is Orr a real problem? Oh, please...


Is voicing our opinions on why things are not going the way we imagined not one of the purposes of this board?


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01-09-2007, 02:40 PM
  #65
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No one questions the voicing of opinion, but what was it that was expected?

I expected the Rangers to flat out suck for at least two years. Right now they are mediocre, but clearly they no longer suck.

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01-09-2007, 02:52 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Only Ranger fans can jump on the coach, players and management with no apparent reason. Could someone more or less clearly formulate what makes him/ her think that the team should be any better than it is now? Is this team worse than in 2004? No. Was last year team much better? Well, may be, but if you get last year Jagr and Lundqvist on this year team it would be better that last year team. What does that have to do with Renney? Is that his fault that Henke is a subpar goalie this season and Jagr is MIA? Is that Renney fault that Shanahan has became what I predicted he would - an aged superstar? What are exactly a blockbuster deals that Slats failed to make? Any examples? Is that Sather fault that Cullen screwed up in NY, Immonen failed to arrive and Prucha disappeared? Is that management fault that Ortmeyer got ill and Ozo got injured over again? Hall was a bust to begin with, but everyone loved him here, is he another Renney fault? Is Orr a real problem? Oh, please...
1. If you want to know what makes many on this board so disapproving of Renney, read the 6586578 million posts on the subject. Inability to match lines, arbitrary line pairings, refusing to bench certain poor performers, asking players to perform in roles they aren't able to do, etc... It's all there man, and it's nothing new.

2. Is it Sather's fault Cullen and Hall suck? No. But he's the GM, he signed them and it goes back to him. Fair or not, that's how it works.

Different people on this board expect different things out of their head coach. For me, a good head coach will help raise the level of play team-wide, will instill discipline and accountability, and make smart decisions on a nightly basis. I DON'T SEE THAT FROM RENNEY! It's not like I think Renney has failed miserably, either. I recognize that he has done some nice things here. But that doesn't mean he gets a pass on his glaring inabilities as a coach! Why is that so hard for some on here to understand? I expect more out my head coach. I'm not seeing with Renney the things I like to see in a head coach, so at the end of the year, I want him gone.


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01-09-2007, 03:26 PM
  #67
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For me, a good head coach will help raise the level of play team-wide, will instill discipline and accountability, and make smart decisions on a nightly basis. I DON'T SEE THAT FROM RENNEY! Why is that so hard for some on here to understand? I expect more out my head coach. I'm not seeing with Renney the things I like to see in a head coach.
I highly doubt that particular ability of yours. There's simply no way to tell for anybody whether the team is UNDER PERFORMING.

If you just take a short look at NHL leading goalie chart, you'd find the striking correlation between the team results and goalie numbers. Our goaltender is not present on top 15 list. That means he is below average (out of 30). That in turns calls for team to play WAAAY above average to simply maintain its average results (because it is not quite proportionate). Given the current NYR standing I'd say that the team played better that it should. That was because Renney was able to build 3rd line in addition to existing 1st (also his product). Can you blame Betts, Hollweg for being indifferent? Or Hossa of late? They play up to 100% to their talent, there's nothing else to ask for. 4th line with Ort return would be finished at some point, but it was non-existent all season long as well as 2nd. Is that players fault? Is that coach fault? Both, IMO, but it is not because of lack of motivation, discipline, accountability, etc. Building the line and the team for that matter is a process. It takes time. Yes, talented coaches can do it faster, but Renney abilities are adequate in that regard and his replacement with more capable guy will not speed up the process by much.

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01-09-2007, 03:42 PM
  #68
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I highly doubt that particular ability of yours. There's simply no way to tell for anybody whether the team is UNDER PERFORMING.
Seven game losing streaks, 81.1% PK and a 9-7-3 mark at home are underperfoming. I think we have more than enough talent to lead the division. It's no special ability, it's pretty apparent to me.

Quote:
If you just take a short look at NHL leading goalie chart, you'd find the striking correlation between the team results and goalie numbers. Our goaltender is not present on top 15 list. That means he is below average (out of 30). That in turns calls for team to play WAAAY above average to simply maintain its average results (because it is not quite proportionate).
Well, if you want to pin all of Henrik's struggles solely on his shoulders, then that's fine. But it seems to me that the TERRIBLE defense we have played in many games this season has had a lot to do with his poor numbers. Look, he's given up more softies this year than last, but he's also had his fair share of amazing games. Give him a half-way decent defense, and his numbers would be far better.

Quote:
Yes, talented coaches can do it faster, but Renney abilities are adequate in that regard and his replacement with more capable guy will not speed up the process by much.
I guess that's the disconnect between the two of us. I'm not content with a coach who is just adequate. I want a talented coach. Is that too much to ask for? I really don't think it is. I'm sure there will be some good candidates for the job this offseason, and I'd hope the Rangers jump on them. If you're content with an adequate coach, then you're going to have to get used to mediocrity.


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01-09-2007, 06:13 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post

I guess that's the disconnect between the two of us. I'm not content with a coach who is just adequate. I want a talented coach. Is that too much to ask for? I really don't think it is. I'm sure there will be some good candidates for the job this offseason, and I'd hope the Rangers jump on them. If you're content with an adequate coach, then you're going to have to get used to mediocrity.
The real disconnect is that you believe this team is a Cup contender. I don't. Therefore, you do not need a Bowman type to re-build the team. Loosing sticks a typical for the team in progress, re-building team it is. Just stay patient. Let Tyutin grow into #1 D, let bottom 6 to settle, than Stall might be coming... Nothing will happen before 2009 anyway...

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01-09-2007, 06:20 PM
  #70
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The real disconnect is that you believe this team is a Cup contender. I don't. Therefore, you do not need a Bowman type to re-build the team. Loosing sticks a typical for the team in progress, re-building team it is. Just stay patient. Let Tyutin grow into #1 D, let bottom 6 to settle, than Stall might be coming... Nothing will happen before 2009 anyway...
Wow, have you read any of my other posts? I'm the guy that always says how this team is NOT a Cup Contender, and that with the organization in the state that it is, we won't be for a few years. I'm well aware of that. I'm also the guy who always wishes aloud for a true rebuild.

At the same time, we can be better than we are. I think we have the talent to take our weak division, and play better than .500 hockey. I'm full of patience for Tyutin and Prucha and Lundqvist, but that has nothing to do with anything. I've stated sooooo many times the problems I have with Renney: tactical errors such as failure to match lines, a failure to instill discipline and accountability, questionable lines, etc... That's got nothing to do with patience!

The team as it is is not capable of winning a Cup- I'm well aware! But we also shouldn't be having prolonged losing streaks, an off-and-on PP and PK, and totally undisciplined play. That, TO ME (to me!) falls on the coach. If not for those problems, we're winning the division, IMO. That's my problem!

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01-09-2007, 08:22 PM
  #71
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Get an enforcer...stop bashing Orr (appreciate what he does as the teams enforcer)...and play tough, physical hockey
I agree!!!

Teams are taking shots at Jagr and while Orr steps up, fact is nobody is really afraid of him. We need a LaRoque and not Shanahan getting fed up and having to fight.

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01-10-2007, 01:56 AM
  #72
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many can complain that there might not be a rebuild...or anything like that...and u can complain about renney...but its not renney that signed malik, kept kasparaitis, or any of the other players that arent playing that great...if you look at this team compared to some of the better teams in the league...we are just a very slow paced team, yea you can say straka nylander and jagr work at a quick pace...but what about the other lines? and what about our defense...we take some of the stupidest penalties because we have a slow defense....we have a slow transition game, we cant turn the puck over and go the other way as soon as it happens, they instead have to play around with it to get it to go the other way.

this is the team we have for this season so theres no reason to cry about it...ok yes we can make some trades that might improve the team for this season, but what about next season and the season after that?..why dont we just keep the team the way it is and see how it goes...i wouldnt mind making the playoffs at a lower spot and getting kicked out again earlier then we should and getting a decent draft pick to build up the system a little more....i mean look at some of the guys we have for the future of the team

weve got defenseman like Marc Staal, Michael Sauer, Ivan Baranka, Bobby Sanguinetti...given not all four of them are guaranteed to make it...but what if 2 out of the 4 do...if even one of them make it and show the promise that they all do contain id call it a success....
weve got forwards such as Nigel Dawes, Brandon Dubinsky, Jarkko Immonen, Ryan Callahan, Greg Moore, Artem Anisimov, Lauri Korpikoski, Dave Kveton(who with his talent could be a steal)...of course there are more guys like Hugh Jessiman...but how much longer is it gonna take for Hugh to get his head on straight and have the drive and determination to realize what his future could hold if he actually tried and was successful....
In net we still have Henrik...but remember we still also have Al Montoya...i wouldnt mind seeing Montoya and Henrik platooning the way Dwayne Roloson and Manny Fernandez did in Minnesota during their playoff run a few years ago...or even the Hurricanes last year with Cam Ward and Martin Gerber...how about Giguere and Bryzgalov, and also Ryan Miller and Martin Biron...some successful teams who platooned two goalies....difference between them is that our two goalies are still very very young...MOST of the other teams had platoons that included a young goalie and a goalie whos had some experience in the league...(miller/biron, bryzgalov/giguere, ward/gerber)

so i think id rather cheer this team on and hope to god that they can play the best they can and hope to see more of the young guys we have in our system be put into our lineup as time went on...i wouldnt mind seeing staal, baranka, dubinsky, dawes and callahan in our lineup with montoya backing up lundqvist next season....is it a reality all of them will be in the lineup...probably not...not with the way this team is run...but is it realistic to believe that atleast 3 of those players will be in our lineup next season...id believe so...

LETS GO RANGERS!

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01-10-2007, 10:15 AM
  #73
nyr2k2
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Originally Posted by Hockey2000nyr View Post
many can complain that there might not be a rebuild...or anything like that...and u can complain about renney...but its not renney that signed malik, kept kasparaitis, or any of the other players that arent playing that great...
Really? You mean it's not the coach who signs FAs? Fascinating .

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this is the team we have for this season so theres no reason to cry about it...ok yes we can make some trades that might improve the team for this season, but what about next season and the season after that?..why dont we just keep the team the way it is and see how it goes...
Or, we could make trades that HURT us further this season, but benefit us greatly down the road, as many in this thread advocated... I don't see anyone clamoring to trade the future for the benefit of the present.

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01-10-2007, 10:48 AM
  #74
Avery316
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Renney acted like a baby and reminds of a coach I cannot stand that I had to deal with in college, if your team isn't performing don't look to blame everybody but youself. I don't recall him ever sayin he was wrong, what he should have done is said I'll have it under control and then taken it out on his team behind closed doors. Renney's rant pretty much showed me as well as others that he has lost complete control over this team and it's only a matter of time before he writes his own ticket out of there.

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01-10-2007, 11:11 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by mikerichy35 View Post
Renney acted like a baby and reminds of a coach I cannot stand that I had to deal with in college, if your team isn't performing don't look to blame everybody but youself. I don't recall him ever sayin he was wrong, what he should have done is said I'll have it under control and then taken it out on his team behind closed doors. Renney's rant pretty much showed me as well as others that he has lost complete control over this team and it's only a matter of time before he writes his own ticket out of there.
Hmm, I never thought about it in that way but I think you have a point. Though I feel like embarrassing his players in the media MIGHT help light a fire under some *****, at the same time it very well could signal the beginning of the end of his control of the players. It really isn't wise to take clubhouse matters and transform them into media spectacles, regardless of how poorly the team played and how upset everyone was. It's just setting the team up for a constant barrage of speculation and questioning from the media in the future.

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