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LA Angels of Anaheim Baseball Discussion (continued)

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Old
12-13-2013, 01:21 PM
  #201
DarthYenik
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I read that, and I just hope Butcher doesn't ruin him.

As for Trumbo, I feel to this trade the same way I feel toward the Bobby Ryan trade. He's a good player that has the potential to be more than good, but for some reason or another he just couldn't get it going in Anaheim. On top of that the Angels need pitching desperately. They need pitchers more than they need a big bat.

I think this trade and the Bourjos/Freese trade were very prudent.

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12-13-2013, 08:12 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Duckie View Post
RBI is meaningless if you're a table setter. For power hitters, like Trumbo, it matters. SLG has him third on the team, but his OBP lowers his overall offensive production (OPS). Using 200 plate appearances as a qualified starting point, Trumbo is fourth in OPS (which is OBP + SLG), behind Trout, Kendrick, and Pujols. Rookie Calhoun had 195 plate appearances, but if included would rank 2nd between Trout and Kendrick - which made Trumbo expendable.

Two seasons ago (2012) was Trumbo's second year in the MLB's and his best with a slash line of .268/.317/.491/.808 (Avg/OBP/SLG/OPS). This year it's .238/.294/.453/.747. Despite the dip, he brought home five more runs this past season compared to 2012. As a power hitter, his job is to slug in runs. After Trumbo, there are a bunch of slap single happy hitters. If Trumbo were a more disciplined hitter, then there's no way in hell we trade him nor would we had to go and sign Hamilton last season.

Trumbo's young to the MLB's. This is his third season in the MLB's as a power hitter. If Trumbo is able to reach his 2012 stats with his power of last season, then Arizona's got an above average power producing bat. And considering that Trumbo's walk rate has improved for the past three years, says at least he's improving. But his one good trait, raw power, is quite a valuable trait and quantifiable with SLG and OPS.

Which would you rather have? Trumbo and his contract or Hamilton and his contract? They're virtually similar players, but Trumbo produced better last year. No one's going to take on Hamilton's contract. Hambone was usually placed in front of Trumbo as a power hitter, but drove in 30 less runs than Trumbo. And yet Hambone's OBP was .307.

From an OBP persepective, he sucked. Good thing he's not a leadoff hitter. From a SLG perspective, he's good there. Combine them, then he's just average for production for this year. That doesn't constitute as suck.

Funny, though, other GM's like chicks, dig the long ball. Hell, we did too with signing Hamilton. Instead of signing Hambone, we could have just signed Greinke and still see the development of Calhoun. But we have two potential south paw starters. eh? I'd rather have one proven Ace and still have money to go after another proven starter like Garza.
RBI is a meaningless stat period because its based importance relies on what players have done ahead of the hitter. If some garbage player was batting second last year instead of Trout then Trumbo doesn't approach 100 RBIs. Does that mean he had a worse year? No, it means the guys ahead of him did.

I couldn't care less where he ranked on the angels in OPS. How is that a measurement of his skill level? Most of the hitters had bad seasons to begin with, so sure, if you want to set the bar that low then Trumbo was awesome.

As far as age and him 'being young in the majors'. He's regressing. He's missing on more pitches in the strike zone according to fangraphs. Pitchers have figured out his holes and are exploiting him more than ever. Worse yet, players like Trumbo with poor at bat plans can't make adjustments. His pitch recognition is atrocious.

The Hamilton comparison is jibberish, I don't know what that has to do with anything. Sure Hamilton sucked too and is paid more. That doesn't change what Trumbo is. Whether he hits first fifth or ninth his objective remains the same: Don't make an out. Trumbo is a prolific out maker, and thus, a terrible hitter.

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Old
12-15-2013, 05:47 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Static View Post
RBI is a meaningless stat period because its based importance relies on what players have done ahead of the hitter. If some garbage player was batting second last year instead of Trout then Trumbo doesn't approach 100 RBIs. Does that mean he had a worse year? No, it means the guys ahead of him did.
Eh? RBI matters when you're batting in the middle of the line-up such as the third, fourth, and fifth hitters. This is their metric of "driving in runs". These guys aren't you're best runners and in the AL are usually your DH's. Hence, the SLG stat. That means how many bases you accrue. This metric combined with personnel to get on base equates to higher RBI's. Conversely, if Trout gets on base and we didn't have someone driving in runs, then Trout doesn't score.

It's great to have a high OBP, but 3 out of 10 chances that you get on is great. Then you have to add in the fact the guy(s) behind you also have that similar ratio, then the percentage gets smaller. RBI's matter for power hitters/sluggers because that's their job. Just like Trout's job two years ago was to get on base and get steals. RBI's don't matter to him because the bottom of the line-up hits before him, often not getting on base.

Trumbo had 95 RBI's two years ago and 100 RBI's this past season. This metric means he can drive in runs.


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I couldn't care less where he ranked on the angels in OPS. How is that a measurement of his skill level? Most of the hitters had bad seasons to begin with, so sure, if you want to set the bar that low then Trumbo was awesome.
OPS = production. You need skill to produce. Basically, this is what OBP + SLG. Calhoun's OPS rated higher than Trumbo's, but it's a small sample. But Dipoto is thinking Calhoun + Freese would be somewhat similar to Trumbo's OPS. OPS is an individual metric as opposed to RBI's. Trumbo's big bat makes for a high SLG, but it's OBP brings it down. As you've mentioned before, someone who has a higher OBP can help increase scoring chances, but if you've got no power, then you have a slap (singles) hitter. A low SLG percent will bring down a player's OPS even though the OPB is high.

Trumbo ranked 4th best in OPS (Production) for the team who had 200 or more plate appearances. yeah... that sucks. (note sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by Static View Post
As far as age and him 'being young in the majors'. He's regressing. He's missing on more pitches in the strike zone according to fangraphs. Pitchers have figured out his holes and are exploiting him more than ever. Worse yet, players like Trumbo with poor at bat plans can't make adjustments. His pitch recognition is atrocious.

The Hamilton comparison is jibberish, I don't know what that has to do with anything. Sure Hamilton sucked too and is paid more. That doesn't change what Trumbo is. Whether he hits first fifth or ninth his objective remains the same: Don't make an out. Trumbo is a prolific out maker, and thus, a terrible hitter.
Trumbo did take a dip last year. And yet for three consecutive years, his walk rate is slowly increasing. Is three years enough to develop such a concrete finality on someone's skill (growth)? So who knows if he can or can't improve. And yet, despite the dip last year, his RBI's did increase. Although, his OPS decreased, which reflects his production is going down despite his increase in RBI's.

Hamilton is Trumbo and vice versa. We paid Bert Burtuzzi money for Hamilton when we already had Trumbo, but Trumbo's better and younger. A numbers game would reflect that it was our defense (pitching) that was a cause for a lot of our losses. From a lot of reading, the GM wanted to re-sign Greinke (pitcher), but the owner wanted the big bat of Hamilton. Guess who won that argument?

Now, the constraint for this winter is you have no real money to play with because of the previous two winters (Pujols and Wilson two winters ago; Hambone last winter). No one will take Hambone's contract. Thus Trumbo or Kendrick become trade assets. We got two potential starting pitchers. It was needed. But I'd rather trade Hambone over Trumbo, but no one will take his contract. See how a connection is made; not in a vacuum.

It seems odd, though, to berate on RBI's. That stat is similar to total points for hockey. Without a goal scorer on your line, you won't get as many assists. Without a competent center, a goal scorer will have a more difficult time scoring goals. But even then, you have to take into context of which line you're placed upon because a first line should have more points than a shutdown third or energy fourth line. Power hitters are your first line. Table setters (leadoff hitters), won't get those RBIs, but they will get runs.

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Old
12-15-2013, 07:40 PM
  #204
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You lost me when you said RBI is a 'production metric' and a .300 OBP is 'great'. I can tell we're speaking two different languages here.

I'd suggest visiting fangraphs and reading articles by Jonah Keri, Dan szymborski, and kieth law. Also David schoenfield.

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Old
12-15-2013, 07:46 PM
  #205
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By the way, mark Trumbo's .294 OBP was ninth worst in the MLB. 132nd out of 140. Maybe your definition of great is a little different than mine.

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12-15-2013, 07:50 PM
  #206
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Also in future conversations, I know what OPS is. I asked you why ranking fourth on the team in OPS is relative in analyzing his skill level of a hitter.

If you want to truly get to the core of a hitter's skill level you'll have to remove any stat or perception that is based on outside influence.

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12-17-2013, 01:49 AM
  #207
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Quote:
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Also in future conversations, I know what OPS is. I asked you why ranking fourth on the team in OPS is relative in analyzing his skill level of a hitter.

If you want to truly get to the core of a hitter's skill level you'll have to remove any stat or perception that is based on outside influence.
OBP is getting on base. It doesn't count how many bases you collect. SLG is counting how many bases you collect. Example: 4.000 means you collected all four bases, either by long ball or inside the park homer. 1.000 means a single. Basically, it adds up your singles, doubles, triples and homers divided by the number of at-bats. SLG is an individual stat. The higher the rating means the player is a power hitter. Hence, this player increases his chances of driving in runs - he can drive himself in.

OPS is the combination of both individual stats, OBP and SLG. A high OBP would make you a great leadoff hitter, provided you have the wheels. A high SLG would make the manager want to place you near the top of the line up between 2 - 5. This individual stat (OPS) is considered production.

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12-17-2013, 01:49 AM
  #208
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By the way, mark Trumbo's .294 OBP was ninth worst in the MLB. 132nd out of 140. Maybe your definition of great is a little different than mine.
I'm just saying Trumbo doesn't suck.

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12-17-2013, 07:42 AM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Duckie View Post
OBP is getting on base. It doesn't count how many bases you collect. SLG is counting how many bases you collect. Example: 4.000 means you collected all four bases, either by long ball or inside the park homer. 1.000 means a single. Basically, it adds up your singles, doubles, triples and homers divided by the number of at-bats. SLG is an individual stat. The higher the rating means the player is a power hitter. Hence, this player increases his chances of driving in runs - he can drive himself in.

OPS is the combination of both individual stats, OBP and SLG. A high OBP would make you a great leadoff hitter, provided you have the wheels. A high SLG would make the manager want to place you near the top of the line up between 2 - 5. This individual stat (OPS) is considered production.
Why are you defining statistics that I already know? I asked you why listing his OPS ranking on the team is relative to analyzing his skill level as a hitter.

If I were to say a guy that hit .240 on a terrible team has a great batting average because he had the third highest average on his team that would be ridiculous, right?

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12-17-2013, 08:59 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Duckie View Post
OBP is getting on base. It doesn't count how many bases you collect. SLG is counting how many bases you collect. Example: 4.000 means you collected all four bases, either by long ball or inside the park homer. 1.000 means a single. Basically, it adds up your singles, doubles, triples and homers divided by the number of at-bats. SLG is an individual stat. The higher the rating means the player is a power hitter. Hence, this player increases his chances of driving in runs - he can drive himself in.

OPS is the combination of both individual stats, OBP and SLG. A high OBP would make you a great leadoff hitter, provided you have the wheels. A high SLG would make the manager want to place you near the top of the line up between 2 - 5. This individual stat (OPS) is considered production.


He knew what OPS is.

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12-20-2013, 11:59 AM
  #211
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Why are you defining statistics that I already know? I asked you why listing his OPS ranking on the team is relative to analyzing his skill level as a hitter.
SLG is an individual skill with no outside influence. It measures the player's power at the plate. It's not a relative stat, it's a direct stat to a player, granted you have to take it into context like everything else. Hitting a HR with no one on base drives himself in. Getting into scoring position by hitting a double or a triple is a huge factor. That doesn't necessarily say he's going to score, but it increases the chances of scoring.

Anyhow, just in case you still think OPS has nothing to do with a player's overall hitting skills...

Quote:
On-base plus slugging (OPS) is a Sabremetric baseball statistic calculated as the sum of a player's on-base percentage and slugging average.[1] The ability of a player to both get on base and to hit for power, two important hitting skills, are represented. An OPS of .900 or higher in Major League Baseball puts the player in the upper echelon of hitters. Typically, the league leader in OPS will score near, and sometimes above, the 1.000 mark.

CategoryClassificationOPS Range
AGreat.9000 and higher
BVery Good .8333 to .8999
CAbove Average .7667 to .8333
DAverage.7000 to .7666
EBelow Average .6334 to .6999
FPoor.5667 to .6333
G Atrocious .5666 and Lower
Trumbo's three years in the MLB in order, OPS: .768, .808, .747

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If I were to say a guy that hit .240 on a terrible team has a great batting average because he had the third highest average on his team that would be ridiculous, right?

Then I'd say it's idiocy for presenting the idea this way. But I'll counter this way... Chris Iannetta's BA is .225. That's a far, far worse average than you've presented. Now, his OPB is .358. Wait... that means he's getting on base at a very high rate, which means he doesn't account for an out. And yet he'd be considered a good bat. Actually, in the whole AL, Iannetta would be ranked in the top 20 for OBP.

But following your premise... yeah Iannetta sucks.

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12-20-2013, 02:38 PM
  #212
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So, basically, you missed the entire point. Again.

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02-28-2014, 06:17 PM
  #213
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Mike Trout!!

Edit: Is it cool with you all if I rename this the Mike Trout thread? He's about the only thing worth getting excited about right now when it comes to the Halos

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03-26-2014, 11:07 AM
  #214
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Once again, sorry to raid your guys board, but with the Angels playing their last spring game today, and opening night on Monday I wanted to speculate about the pitching rotation and lineup.

My pitching rotation would be:

Weaver
Wilson
Richards
Skaggs
Santiago

Not much to work with, there's some potential there, but keeping Blanton out of the rotation is good enough for me

My lineup would look something like:

Calhoun
Trout
Ibanez
Pujols
Hamilton
Freese
Kendrick
Ianetta
Aybar

I'm not expecting much out of Hamilton or Pujols, but I'll be interested to see what Calhoun will do in a full season, and what Ibanez and Freese can do for us.

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03-26-2014, 12:09 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nose of Sutter View Post
Once again, sorry to raid your guys board, but with the Angels playing their last spring game today, and opening night on Monday I wanted to speculate about the pitching rotation and lineup.

My pitching rotation would be:

Weaver
Wilson
Richards
Skaggs
Santiago

Not much to work with, there's some potential there, but keeping Blanton out of the rotation is good enough for me

My lineup would look something like:

Calhoun
Trout
Ibanez
Pujols
Hamilton
Freese
Kendrick
Ianetta
Aybar

I'm not expecting much out of Hamilton or Pujols, but I'll be interested to see what Calhoun will do in a full season, and what Ibanez and Freese can do for us.
I hope Ibanez is nowhere near the 3 hole.

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03-26-2014, 01:27 PM
  #216
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Blanton was finally released by the team.

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03-26-2014, 01:38 PM
  #217
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Finally can get that goatee and 6+ era out of here. Bad signing, bad pitcher, sorry Blanton but it was time.

And yeah idk about Ibanez in the 3 hole, but who knows, I'm unsure of a lot of the decisions the Angels have made in the last few years.

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03-26-2014, 01:44 PM
  #218
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Blanton sounds like a classic "NL --> AL transition" failure; not a lot of NL pitchers make it to the AL unscathed.

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03-26-2014, 01:53 PM
  #219
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Blanton sounds like a classic "NL --> AL transition" failure; not a lot of NL pitchers make it to the AL unscathed.
Blanton started his career as an Athletic and for a time was a decent to good pitcher. He just can't hack it much anymore, which the AL will expose more easily as you point out.

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03-26-2014, 03:01 PM
  #220
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Yeah, thinking about it now, Ibanez probably won't be in the 3 hole, I was just basing that off where they had him in Spring and the fact that I forgot we signed him until I finished everything

Good to see we finally cut Blanton, I'm serious in saying he was the worst pitcher in baseball last year

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03-26-2014, 07:05 PM
  #221
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Long overdue that they let Blanton go.

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03-28-2014, 08:14 PM
  #222
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Good luck to you Angels fans this season. Still trying to score Opening day tickets for Monday against the Phillies here.

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03-28-2014, 09:34 PM
  #223
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Angels twitter announce Trouty has signed a 6 year extension, official announcement coming tomorrow. Great news!

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03-28-2014, 09:59 PM
  #224
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6 years, $144 mil.

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03-28-2014, 10:04 PM
  #225
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nice

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