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Old
12-15-2013, 10:06 PM
  #376
jeff leonard
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
He also played some significant time with Gus last yr. Saying Schenn was the result of Kimmo simply isn't true. Kimmo was on fire offensively last yr but his defense wasn't so amazing as to cover for lapses made by a "fringe NHLer".

People need to pull the stick out when it comes to Luke and look at him objectively, not tainted by JVR's success in TO.



Agreed, Schenn has been good more then he's been bad as a Flyer but fans still want to run him out of town cause JVR is doing well.

That was an awful trade, but he's played less than a full season with this team, and was largely AWFUL in Toronto, which is why a lot of people call him a bad player- because for most of his career he has been a bad player. And it's not like he's a young developing player who has shown flashes of brilliance. He's shown flashes of competence. He's too slow, he has the hands of Venus de Milo and it's not like its difficult to find shut-down defensemen- and that's when he's actually playing like one instead of just shuffling around hitting people.

Even at his best, he's just a second pairing guy on any hockey team that is making the playoffs. I don't even know if he's even that on a team going deep. I'm not saying the dude is not an NHLer, just that, at best, he's a stopgap solution for a mediocre team.

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12-15-2013, 10:49 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by jeff leonard View Post
Even at his best, he's just a second pairing guy on any hockey team that is making the playoffs. I don't even know if he's even that on a team going deep. I'm not saying the dude is not an NHLer, just that, at best, he's a stopgap solution for a mediocre team.
I wouldn't necessarily call him a stop-gap, but I agree it was a irrational/desperate move by Homer after getting bounced from the playoffs. He figured he could get better defensively by acquiring defensive-minded defensemen (Schenn, Grossmann at the deadline). While solid players, they were square pegs in a round hole in Lavy's system. Not to mention they are basically carbon copies of one another and I think it's foolish to have 2 players like that on the same roster in today's game, but that's a topic for another thread.

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12-16-2013, 02:32 AM
  #378
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I believe having Luke Schenn and Nick Grossmann on the same roster is a non issue as long as they find a way to replace Timonen and (later) Streit with a young mobile player.
Gustafsson already brings some above average skating, same for Coburn.

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12-16-2013, 05:31 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by jeff leonard View Post
That was an awful trade, but he's played less than a full season with this team, and was largely AWFUL in Toronto, which is why a lot of people call him a bad player- because for most of his career he has been a bad player. And it's not like he's a young developing player who has shown flashes of brilliance. He's shown flashes of competence. He's too slow, he has the hands of Venus de Milo and it's not like its difficult to find shut-down defensemen- and that's when he's actually playing like one instead of just shuffling around hitting people.

Even at his best, he's just a second pairing guy on any hockey team that is making the playoffs. I don't even know if he's even that on a team going deep. I'm not saying the dude is not an NHLer, just that, at best, he's a stopgap solution for a mediocre team.
D men and stay at home ones specifically take longer to develop, granted he's closing in on 400 games but since when is 24 yo (turned in Nov) not young? I mean you do realize that Gus is like a yr older right?

I disagree that he's only shown signs of competence, he had at least on good season in TO before coming here and when he's playing we'll he's much more then competent.

Whatever, to each there own but I think you're blowing things way out of proportion and I suspect it's because JVR is doing well. Even though many people wee calling for his head as well before he got moved. And before people start with I was against it from the beginning comments almost everyone said they would have been OK if the Flyers got something small like a pick. I honestly doubt a pick would've made people happy right now either. My point is the grass is always greener.

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12-16-2013, 07:50 AM
  #380
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I just don't know what Luke's ceiling is. He doesn't have hands. He's not that good of a skater. He's got a good slap shot...ok.

When I watch him, I see a better, more stable version of Denis Gauthier. We need him to be better than that if we want any chance of 'winning' this trade.

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12-16-2013, 08:32 AM
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff leonard View Post
That was an awful trade, but he's played less than a full season with this team, and was largely AWFUL in Toronto, which is why a lot of people call him a bad player- because for most of his career he has been a bad player. And it's not like he's a young developing player who has shown flashes of brilliance. He's shown flashes of competence. He's too slow, he has the hands of Venus de Milo and it's not like its difficult to find shut-down defensemen- and that's when he's actually playing like one instead of just shuffling around hitting people.
Now, have you actually watched mostly every Toronto game he's played? Because I have. He was a monster his 1st and 3rd years there, his 2nd he was a little iffy and his 4th he was badly overweight, which resulted in his horrid play. His best year for TO was his 3rd, when he played with Kaberle (at the time a smooth skating pmd).

IVE READ THE LEAFS BOARDS SO IM A EXPERT ON A PLAYER! Honestly, its becoming ridiculous.

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12-16-2013, 08:38 AM
  #382
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If luke Schenn does not have a spot in the top 4 and plays 18-20 min a night you have to get rid of him. His contract is along the same lines as other top 4 defensive defenseman, but he is not as good as them. I personally would rather have elc's occupying the 3rd pairing instead of a guy making close to 4 million.

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12-16-2013, 09:26 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by GagneHanson12 View Post
Now, have you actually watched mostly every Toronto game he's played? Because I have. He was a monster his 1st and 3rd years there, his 2nd he was a little iffy and his 4th he was badly overweight, which resulted in his horrid play. His best year for TO was his 3rd, when he played with Kaberle (at the time a smooth skating pmd).

IVE READ THE LEAFS BOARDS SO IM A EXPERT ON A PLAYER! Honestly, its becoming ridiculous.

I lived in Toronto for many many years and went to hockey games in the air canada center in which I saw Luke Schenn play bad hockey, so let's layoff the all-caps assumptions. He was never a monster and that's the point I'm arguing against. I didn't say he was a fringe NHLer, or that he's bad because the leafs board said he's bad and I'm an expert. I've said that he's too inconsistent for a guy whose -best- hockey is still just "competent". He's only 24, sure, but his ceiling is too unremarkable to be paying 3.5+ million for- and when he's having a bad season, which seems to be every other season, he's truly awful. A guy with consistency issues who can play passable top 4 defense when paired with all-star puck movers is not a guy you want on a competing team.

Forget the trade, because the Flyers lost it really badly. On his own merits, ignoring what we could have with JVR, Luke Schenn is not good enough to be a significant contributor on a playoff-quality team.

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12-16-2013, 10:38 AM
  #384
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Schenn is still young.

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12-16-2013, 10:49 AM
  #385
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I'm curious, how does Schenn stack up against someone like Barrett Jackman? Are they comparable players? I've never watched him play. I know they are both defensive minded defensemen and have had similar contracts around the same timeframe of their development.

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12-16-2013, 10:57 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Fresh perspective View Post
For our sake, we better hope he turns out better than Jackman. Luke's skillset is kinda of limited, but not as limited as Jackman's.
Really? I always had thought he was viewed as a very solid and serviceable defenseman.

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12-16-2013, 11:06 AM
  #387
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If Luke Schenn played like Barrett Jackman, no one would be complaining about him.

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12-16-2013, 11:09 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
If Luke Schenn played like Barrett Jackman, no one would be complaining about him.
That's just what I'm trying to figure out. I don't think Luke Schenn has been as bad as a lot of things I read from our fanbase. He had a very good year last year and has been up and down this season (hasn't everyone?)

I was just curious how they measure up around the same points in their career. I know Jackman won the Calder trophy but still.

I just think people have trouble separating Schenn's performance from whether the Flyers won that trade.

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12-16-2013, 11:13 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
That's just what I'm trying to figure out. I don't think Luke Schenn has been as bad as a lot of things I read from our fanbase. He had a very good year last year and has been up and down this season (hasn't everyone?)

I was just curious how they measure up around the same points in their career. I know Jackman won the Calder trophy but still.

I just think people have trouble separating Schenn's performance from whether the Flyers won that trade.
Spot on. Flyers fans expect too much from him cause he was moved for JVR, who most had soured on anyway, funny how that works. Schenn has been inconsistent but Streit and Mez have been substantially worse. Luckily Mez doesn't play a whole lot but Streit is in there every game and has been a nightmare, he's good for a breakaway against just about every game. Luke has been up and down as has the team as a whole and you know that comes with the territory when you're a 24 yo (just turned 24 last month).

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12-16-2013, 11:14 AM
  #390
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Jackman's your prototypical defensive-defenseman. Even early in his career he was positionally sound, he knew when to be physical and when to be passive, he hit hard, he fought when he needed to, blocked a lot of shots and was reliable on the PK. He's not the fastest skater, but he makes up for it (most of the time) with his positioning.

He's like a tougher Rob Scuderi, but Scuderi can more the puck better and is a better skater.

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12-16-2013, 11:44 AM
  #391
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post



Agreed, Schenn has been good more then he's been bad as a Flyer but fans still want to run him out of town cause JVR is doing well.
but at the same time many think Holmgren could of got more for JVR then just Luke Schenn. I understand why they traded JVR, but the return was not enough. Its looking more and more like Holmgren lost the trade.

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12-16-2013, 12:49 PM
  #392
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but at the same time many think Holmgren could of got more for JVR then just Luke Schenn. I understand why they traded JVR, but the return was not enough. Its looking more and more like Holmgren lost the trade.
That could very well be the case, but in any event, the trade happened and Schenn is here. I feel a lot of people want to hate on him because of the trade, when in reality, he didn't make the trade!!!

He's here, so I wish people could look at his performance without factoring in how JVR is doing. That should be a criticism of Holmgren, not a criticism of Schenn.

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12-16-2013, 01:19 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
That could very well be the case, but in any event, the trade happened and Schenn is here. I feel a lot of people want to hate on him because of the trade, when in reality, he didn't make the trade!!!

He's here, so I wish people could look at his performance without factoring in how JVR is doing. That should be a criticism of Holmgren, not a criticism of Schenn.
I was a big JVR supporter when he was here and I really wasnt thrilled they traded him. However I dont hold that against Luke at all. the return for JVR right now is looking like a loss of the trade. that isnt Luke's fault. As I previously said. The return was not nearly enough for a player like JVR.

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12-16-2013, 01:21 PM
  #394
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IIRC, Chris and I wanted L.Schenn + Kadri for JVR. Joe Toronto was not pleased. What crazy loons we were.

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12-16-2013, 02:23 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I was a big JVR supporter when he was here and I really wasnt thrilled they traded him. However I dont hold that against Luke at all. the return for JVR right now is looking like a loss of the trade. that isnt Luke's fault. As I previously said. The return was not nearly enough for a player like JVR.
That probably true (lost the trade). And I don't doubt that you're looking at Schenn's performance objectively but the vast majority of fans on here aren't.

The plus that homer could have realistically gotten at that point (injury plagued season) would have been a pick or something small more then likely. I doubt that would have helped these people with the stick.

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12-16-2013, 03:30 PM
  #396
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Looking towards the future I am fine with Schenn on our blue line even if it is the bottom pairing. He is still young and at the very least I see him as a solid shutdown guy. In the future we could have a d corps of schenn, Coburn, morin, hagg, and ghost as long as the young guys develop well. You could also add Gus to that if an upgrade isn't found. There is also the possibility of replacing one of the others mentioned if an upgrade is available.

Overall though I feel the defense will be solid in a few years with a nice balance of size, skating, puck moving, and shutdown ability with schenn being a part of it unless he regresses rather than progresses.

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12-16-2013, 03:40 PM
  #397
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I think LSchenn is the player that he will be at this point. I look more at number of games played than age and number of years in the NHL. By that measure LSchenn is an NHL veteran now. A lot of others believe he can become better, but I don't see it. I guess the question then becomes when will LSchenn be considered not young anymore or done developing?

As for comparing LSchenn to JVR, that is almost a guarantee to happen. The reality is these two players were traded for each other. Because of that they are forever entwined with each other in the eyes of many. Personally, I didn't mind trading JVR, but wanted a better trade than for a defensive d-man. That being said what's done is done. Hopefully, the Flyers learn not to do a trade like that again.

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12-16-2013, 04:43 PM
  #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
When I watch him, I see a better, more stable version of Denis Gauthier.
that's depressing
but sadly accurate

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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
Hopefully, the Flyers learn not to do a trade like that again.
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12-16-2013, 09:44 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
That's just what I'm trying to figure out. I don't think Luke Schenn has been as bad as a lot of things I read from our fanbase. He had a very good year last year and has been up and down this season (hasn't everyone?)
I still like Luke a lot and think he has a lot more to give. He provides an element of hitting that is very important to keeping other teams on their toes. He and Grossmann make them harder to play against.

His first pass has always been good, he joins the play and gets his point shots off. I don't have as many complaints about his play as others. I saw how well he played at times for Toronto, being subjected to so many Leaf games living here.

He was really good last year, paired with Kimmo, but I understand why Kimmo needs a better skater as a partner now, and he and Coburn work well together.

With Grossmann playing so well, and working well with Streit, it just means Luke is going to be in the 3rd pairing now. Lots of things will change in the next couple years, and I can see Morin playing with a vet like Streit, and Luke taking care of a smaller guy like Hagg or Gostibehere a couple years down the road.

One thing that impressed me last year, in the unfortunate late season winning stretch, was how well Luke played with Lauridsen. They kept it simple, moved the puck, and hit everyone who came across the blueline. It worked too, even against some pretty good opposition.

I hope Berube keeps playing Luke with Gus and just let them play.

Then next summer, keep Luke away from weight training with Shea Weber and get him working on his speed again. He's strong enough.

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12-17-2013, 12:58 AM
  #400
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IIRC, Chris and I wanted L.Schenn + Kadri for JVR. Joe Toronto was not pleased. What crazy loons we were.
Seriously though...quoted for emphasis...

I still believe that that specific trade was not as bad considering our needs and our depth at forward (*cough*Laughton*cough), however...you never go into a trade without caring that you're not getting the better value.

LSchenn will right his ship. He won't ever be a stud, but we knew that. Neither will JVR. We got hosed, but we won a dozen other trades. Sigh and move on.

Those saying that JVR > LSchenn were right though, myself included. I think it's pretty obvious why now though.

Would've preferred shipping out Hartnell for defensive help at that point. Hartnell for LSchenn and our lineup looks like this...

vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Lecavalier - Schenn
Downie - Couturier - Read
Rinaldo - Hall - Raffl

Timonen - Coburn
Streit - Grossmann
Gustafsson - Schenn

Mason
Emery

One change is significantly better.

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