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Coots: Sean Couturier

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Old
12-14-2013, 08:26 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I can honestly see Couturier becoming the captain of an nhl team at some point in his future. He offers a lot of intangibles and is just a shutdown guy that is learning his offensive game.
Stevie Y type?

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12-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
Stevie Y type?
Sure, if he puts up a couple 130 point seasons.

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12-15-2013, 12:38 AM
  #753
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Sure, if he puts up a couple 130 point seasons.
Pshaw, those were in the early 90s. That's only worth like 120 points now.

Or if you're talking to a Crosby = Gretzky sorta guy, 130 points 20 years ago is equivalent to about 40 now.

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12-15-2013, 01:42 AM
  #754
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I hope Couturier's further emergence in the last couple weeks will light a bulb over B. Schenn's head.

I think Schenn needs to realize how hard every night he needs to play to be effective. He needs to watch dozens of videos of Tkachuk in the off-season.

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12-15-2013, 02:16 AM
  #755
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Both schenns are very slow. That is a death sentence in todays game

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Old
12-15-2013, 10:24 AM
  #756
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An argument could be made that Couturier may now have played on balance the hardest minutes this year of any forward in the NHL when PK and ES are both looked at.

He is one of only 11 forwards in the NHL with +1 Corsi QoC and +1 Rel QoC who also play >45% off zone starts.

Couture, Stajan and Jones are probably the only 3 in that group who it could be argued play harder ES mins.

He is 3rd in that group in GAON/60 after Staal and Marleau.

4th in Corsi in that group after Staal, Turris and Higgins.

Has the 4th best +/- in that group after Couture, Marleau and Turris.

Him, Turris and Couture are the 3 of the 11 who probably do best overall in those minutes if Corsi, GAOn and +/- are considered. (top 5 in all.)

While his ES minutes rank among the hardest in the NHL his PK minutes are also absurd.

2nd most per 60 and per game in the whole NHL. (after McClement.)

5th hardest QoC among the 46 guys who play 2+ minutes a night.

1st best relative Corsi on PK (guys 2+ mins)

1st best Corsi On on PK (guys 2+ mins)

3rd best GA/On on PK (guys 2+ mins)

2nd best +/- on on PK (guys 2+ mins)

Stajan is the only other guy who is ~top 10 in ES hardest mins who also play over 2 mins a night on PK. He plays 2.20~ mins and 2nd pairing kind of QoC.

So Couturier probably plays top 5 hardest ES mins in the league and top 2 hardest PK mins in the league. (him and Kulemin are the only guys top 20 in both PK and ES.) He has almost certainly been the best PKer in the NHL this year as well, while also doing very well at ES compared to guys with similar minutes.

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Old
12-15-2013, 01:05 PM
  #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Both schenns are very slow. That is a death sentence in todays game
Brayden isn't that slow. He's not a super fast player but it's not like hes chugging along like Hartnell.

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12-15-2013, 01:11 PM
  #758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Awesome post. Also take into consideration that JVR is, on average, getting over 5 more minutes of ice time a game, literally. Almost a minute of that is on the pp too. People need to take it easy on this kid.

Though I think SCOREacek was advocating patients, using JVR as an example.
Patience, not patients! Haha. But seriously, that was more of a comment to the boards as a whole, not just SCOREacek. People point to JvR as an example of a guy blossoming into a star, but continually seem to consider Schenn as either underachieving or a bust or whatever.

The point of the post was just pointing out that JvR and Schenn are on par with their stats as it is, but when looked at in context (Schenn playing on a worse team with worse line mates and being younger) you would think people would be ecstatic about Schenn. People make such a big deal about age and youth but no one seems to care that Schenn is just 22. The grass is always greener, I suppose.

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12-15-2013, 01:41 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Patience, not patients! Haha. But seriously, that was more of a comment to the boards as a whole, not just SCOREacek. People point to JvR as an example of a guy blossoming into a star, but continually seem to consider Schenn as either underachieving or a bust or whatever.

The point of the post was just pointing out that JvR and Schenn are on par with their stats as it is, but when looked at in context (Schenn playing on a worse team with worse line mates and being younger) you would think people would be ecstatic about Schenn. People make such a big deal about age and youth but no one seems to care that Schenn is just 22. The grass is always greener, I suppose.

Oh man. I suck at English.

And I wholeheartedly agree with you about the rest. I was saying TOI is also a factor to consider when comparing Schenn and JVR's point totals last year and this year.

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12-15-2013, 01:52 PM
  #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Patience, not patients! Haha. But seriously, that was more of a comment to the boards as a whole, not just SCOREacek. People point to JvR as an example of a guy blossoming into a star, but continually seem to consider Schenn as either underachieving or a bust or whatever.

The point of the post was just pointing out that JvR and Schenn are on par with their stats as it is, but when looked at in context (Schenn playing on a worse team with worse line mates and being younger) you would think people would be ecstatic about Schenn. People make such a big deal about age and youth but no one seems to care that Schenn is just 22. The grass is always greener, I suppose.
Stats are one thing, however what he's actually showing on the ice isn't all that fantastic. Often loses track of the puck, always chasing the play, etc. It makes you wonder if he has a lot more ceiling left. I can definitely see why people are souring on him...I tried to stay positive but it's not working.


It's telling that it was easy to watch Couturier and know that he was going to start racking up points...whereas when you watch Schenn and see how he's producing it's a surprise.

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Old
12-15-2013, 02:09 PM
  #761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Stats are one thing, however what he's actually showing on the ice isn't all that fantastic. Often loses track of the puck, always chasing the play, etc. It makes you wonder if he has a lot more ceiling left. I can definitely see why people are souring on him...I tried to stay positive but it's not working.


It's telling that it was easy to watch Couturier and know that he was going to start racking up points...whereas when you watch Schenn and see how he's producing it's a surprise.
I don't have a problem if you are souring on Schenn, so long as you feel the same way about JvR. The inconsistency is what I don't understand. I don't understand how you are going to tell me JvR is on the brink of stardom but Schenn is on the brink of busting when Schenn is younger and playing with worse line mates but putting up comparable numbers.

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12-15-2013, 02:27 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't have a problem if you are souring on Schenn, so long as you feel the same way about JvR. The inconsistency is what I don't understand. I don't understand how you are going to tell me JvR is on the brink of stardom but Schenn is on the brink of busting when Schenn is younger and playing with worse line mates but putting up comparable numbers.
Because stats need context. JVR's stats combined with what was actually visible on the ice always indicated that he had a potentially very high ceiling.

Schenn's stats combined with what he's actually showing on the ice indicate it's unlikely he'll break out like JVR.

Sure that can change at some point, but right now it's not looking great. He has physical talent, but his hockey IQ just looks low as dirt. Can't read plays, always chasing, losing the puck, etc. His actual play isn't exactly showing tons of upside from where it is now.

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12-15-2013, 03:14 PM
  #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Because stats need context. JVR's stats combined with what was actually visible on the ice always indicated that he had a potentially very high ceiling.

Schenn's stats combined with what he's actually showing on the ice indicate it's unlikely he'll break out like JVR.

Sure that can change at some point, but right now it's not looking great. He has physical talent, but his hockey IQ just looks low as dirt. Can't read plays, always chasing, losing the puck, etc. His actual play isn't exactly showing tons of upside from where it is now.
But what about the context of Schenn playing on a lesser team with lesser line mates, in less TOI, while being two years younger? I'm not saying that Schenn is a sure-fire superstar or that JvR isn't any good. I'm just pointing out they are similar in just about every aspect but JvR seems to be much more regarded than Schenn. The argument regarding his on-ice play (something that is debatable and unquantifiable) doesn't seem to hold up to the facts. I understand you may not be thrilled with what you have seen, and I guess his points are the result of something other than his play, but the same could and has been said about JvR's on-ice play. JvR has been criticized for his lack of hustle, inconsistency, softness, etc.

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Old
12-15-2013, 03:30 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But what about the context of Schenn playing on a lesser team with lesser line mates, in less TOI, while being two years younger? I'm not saying that Schenn is a sure-fire superstar or that JvR isn't any good. I'm just pointing out they are similar in just about every aspect but JvR seems to be much more regarded than Schenn. The argument regarding his on-ice play (something that is debatable and unquantifiable) doesn't seem to hold up to the facts. I understand you may not be thrilled with what you have seen, and I guess his points are the result of something other than his play, but the same could and has been said about JvR's on-ice play. JvR has been criticized for his lack of hustle, inconsistency, softness, etc.
The quality of team has little to do with the fact that Schenn is very passive as a player, rarely driving or controlling the play, while JVR was at least showing flashes of that ability.

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12-15-2013, 06:14 PM
  #765
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He loves that weird angle shot...goalie gives him anything and he nails it

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12-15-2013, 08:33 PM
  #766
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Schenn is on pace to = JVR's 3rd year.
Schenn is 2nd in team scoring...JVR was on pace to finish 9th in team scoring
One can EASILY see that todays points on this team is harder to get then when JVR was in his 3rd year.

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12-16-2013, 06:07 AM
  #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The quality of team has little to do with the fact that Schenn is very passive as a player, rarely driving or controlling the play, while JVR was at least showing flashes of that ability.
Not every player has the ability to take over the game. Even good players. You can be a good player and not have the ability to dominate a game. I don't think a guy like John LeClair when he was knocking in 50 a year was a guy who took over or controlled the game like JvR did a couple years ago in the playoffs, but I'd love to have him on the team. Schenn is playing fine, especially for a 22 year old, but not good enough in your eyes and the points he is amassing (which are similar to JvR numbers) are happening for some other reason besides the fact that he is playing well. JvR is 24 and playing just as well but on a better team with much better linemates, but a couple times a year or two ago he played REALLY well for a week. Come on.

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12-16-2013, 06:57 AM
  #768
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He loves that weird angle shot...goalie gives him anything and he nails it
How many times he's scored from that angle? One was against TBL and it was scored on Lindbäck..

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12-16-2013, 07:35 AM
  #769
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Holy crap I just saw Steve Yzerman's name in this thread!

Do you guys seriously not know how good that guy was?

Couts has had 10 good offensive games in his career. He has had more games in his career where he didn't even look like an NHLer than he has where he looked like a 2nd liner.... but he is the next Yzerman? Wait, I thought he was the next Ron Francis? -- funny how those two names have come up considering they are completely different players....good analysis though

Just let the kid effing develop and stop setting him up to fail by comparing him to some of the greatest to ever play the game.

And its funny to read that Schenn is too slow and under performing. I am not arguing the point, but it's pretty ironic considering the thread we are in.

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12-16-2013, 08:26 AM
  #770
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Originally Posted by sg12lw View Post
Holy crap I just saw Steve Yzerman's name in this thread!

Do you guys seriously not know how good that guy was?

Couts has had 10 good offensive games in his career. He has had more games in his career where he didn't even look like an NHLer than he has where he looked like a 2nd liner.... but he is the next Yzerman? Wait, I thought he was the next Ron Francis? -- funny how those two names have come up considering they are completely different players....good analysis though

Just let the kid effing develop and stop setting him up to fail by comparing him to some of the greatest to ever play the game.

And its funny to read that Schenn is too slow and under performing. I am not arguing the point, but it's pretty ironic considering the thread we are in.
You need to learn how to read. Badly. He said Stevie Y type, which means the same type of player. No one expects him to do any of those things, they were just stating players that weren't burners who were good offensively (Ron Francis) and a player he could have a similar play style to (Stevie Y).

Also, to make your head explode: Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux, Sakic, Howe, Esposito, Oates, etc.

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12-16-2013, 09:31 AM
  #771
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Brayden is fine, sometimes I get mad at him cuz of his last name but he's probably going to be really good.

Couturier's maximum potential is an HOF player and I'm not scared to be the one crazy enough to say it.

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12-16-2013, 10:16 AM
  #772
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Originally Posted by sg12lw View Post
Holy crap I just saw Steve Yzerman's name in this thread!

Do you guys seriously not know how good that guy was?

Couts has had 10 good offensive games in his career. He has had more games in his career where he didn't even look like an NHLer than he has where he looked like a 2nd liner.... but he is the next Yzerman? Wait, I thought he was the next Ron Francis? -- funny how those two names have come up considering they are completely different players....good analysis though

Just let the kid effing develop and stop setting him up to fail by comparing him to some of the greatest to ever play the game.

And its funny to read that Schenn is too slow and under performing. I am not arguing the point, but it's pretty ironic considering the thread we are in.
To say that Couturier is the next Yzerman isn't fair. Couts is 21 and already better than Yzerman so he should be more compared to a Gretzky but with better defense.

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12-16-2013, 10:25 AM
  #773
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Originally Posted by StoneHands View Post
To say that Couturier is the next Yzerman isn't fair. Couts is 21 and already better than Yzerman so he should be more compared to a Gretzky but with better defense.
Gretzky would have been a beast with Sean's size and skating ability. Basically a Jon Sim clone!

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12-16-2013, 10:54 AM
  #774
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Gretzky would have been a beast with Sean's size and skating ability. Basically a Jon Sim clone!
Whoa there buddy, Gretzky was a nice player and all, but there's only one Jon Sim.

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12-16-2013, 10:58 AM
  #775
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I sat behind the Islanders bench during a game and I swear to God Jon Sim fell asleep standing up during the national anthem. He looked extremely hungover.

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