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Decisions need to be made, but which ones?

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Old
12-16-2013, 01:15 PM
  #151
Psuhockey
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
or Duncan Siemens. Who the Flyers were ready to draft ahead of Dougie Hamilton. Only recently have the Flyers finally figured out what the rest of the NHL knows. you draft from the goaltender out.
Siemens is another guy who proves the flyers love of pylons. Brodin and Hamilton were the nonphysical PMDs and Siemens was the aggressive defensive defensemen who's offensive game might develop.

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12-16-2013, 01:16 PM
  #152
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I might be in the minority here, but I still like the Couts pick over Hamilton. I know everyone was raving about him and he is young, but Couts is coming around offensively. Hamilton hasn't had the best season up in Boston either, but he still has plenty left to grow as well. I just like Couts upside a little more than Hamilton. Just my opinion of course.
In reality, although I definitely wanted Hamilton-- the Couts pick serves a similar purpose in at least one regard -- Defense improved, which is at least part of the allure of Hamilton. Just in the middle, not on the blueline (excluding times Couts protects it or finds himself there on the PP yes yes I know).

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12-16-2013, 01:27 PM
  #153
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I might be in the minority here, but I still like the Couts pick over Hamilton. I know everyone was raving about him and he is young, but Couts is coming around offensively. Hamilton hasn't had the best season up in Boston either, but he still has plenty left to grow as well. I just like Couts upside a little more than Hamilton. Just my opinion of course.
I like Couturier too. IMO if this team is ever going to win the cup, it's going to be because of Couturier more than Giroux in the playoffs. That being said, I was talking more about the Flyers neglect of the blueline. Pronger and Timonen were turning 38 and Coburn and Carle were both up for free agency. The "best" in the system at the time was Marshall. If you are trading two centers, need only one on the big club, and have nothing to fill the fast approaching hole in defense, go get a defenseman somewhere in that trade. That draft they took one defenseman in the 4th whom they didn't sign and 5 forwards.

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12-16-2013, 01:30 PM
  #154
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I think Holmgren and company were going BPA in that draft, and after seeing Couts slip so far, there was nobody else they were going to pick.

And I know everybody likes to rag on the Flyers for their inability to draft/develop defensemen (for a good reason), but it looks like they've changed their philosophy over the past year or so. After the Weber/Suter situations, I think management finally realized that they're going to have to build the blue line from within, rather than through free agent signings or trades.

Look at the past draft - almost all defensemen. And according to Meltzer's write up the other day, they've vowed to be patient with developing them. If one or two of these guys pan out to be a legit top pairing d-man, we've got a pretty solid core moving forward. But that's a big if. Drafting defensemen is a total crapshoot, hence their inflated value around the league right now.

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12-16-2013, 01:34 PM
  #155
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I think there's also generally less high end D talent now than there was in the 90s, making the demand for them even higher.

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12-16-2013, 01:36 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I think there's also generally less high end D talent now than there was in the 90s, making the demand for them even higher.
That's true too. Looking around the league, probably less than half the teams have a legit #1.

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12-16-2013, 01:43 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I think there's also generally less high end D talent now than there was in the 90s, making the demand for them even higher.
Agreed but there is also more teams as the league didn't stop expanding until 2000. The game is also faster meaning the defensemen have to make quicker decisions and move puck before the forecheck gets them.

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12-16-2013, 01:47 PM
  #158
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In the 90s you have Pronger, Bourque, Chelios, Stevens, Lidstrom, etc. It's highly questionable that there's even a single Dman out there on their level right now.

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12-16-2013, 01:56 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
In the 90s you have Pronger, Bourque, Chelios, Stevens, Lidstrom, etc. It's highly questionable that there's even a single Dman out there on their level right now.
The best defensemen in the league are very young so who knows how they will really turn out. Guys like Weber and Suter aren't even at the age when Lidstrom won his first Norris at 31. I think Chara is the only future hall of fame defensive in his 30's and I would put him on the level of at least Stevens and Chelios if not better.

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12-16-2013, 02:11 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
The best defensemen in the league are very young so who knows how they will really turn out. Guys like Weber and Suter aren't even at the age when Lidstrom won his first Norris at 31. I think Chara is the only future hall of fame defensive in his 30's and I would put him on the level of at least Stevens and Chelios if not better.
Eh. Chara has only won the Norris after his competition completely thinned out. Stevens never had his competition thin out; I would still take him over Chara. Chelios was most definitely better than Chara...he won 3 Norris Trophies against some hard competitors in Coffey, Bourque and Leetch. Lidstrom also had some really hard competition compared to Chara.

Anyhow, it's semantics; in general, I think there is less top D talent right now than there has been from the 80s through mid 2000s, and that's definitely helping to drive the price of the talent available upwards. Some of the younger guys might pan out, but that's in the future and even still there's less in general than there once was.

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12-16-2013, 02:20 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
In the 90s you have Pronger, Bourque, Chelios, Stevens, Lidstrom, etc. It's highly questionable that there's even a single Dman out there on their level right now.
Completely true... a lot of these guys were still among the best D men in hockey aged late 30's or ~40.

Pronger, Bourque, Chelios, Stevens, Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Leetch, MacInnis, Housley, Murphy, Coffey, Suter were all playing for several years at the same time. Ofc some were past their best, but a lot of them were still damn good players. Pretty sure all of those guys are better than anyone in the NHL atm.

Both Hatchers, Blake, Numinen, Desjardins, Zubov, Duchesne, Patrick, Olausson, Wesley, Gonchar etc were no slouches either around that time. Then even guys like Jovocop, Schneider, Ozolins and Ohlund etc.

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12-16-2013, 02:26 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Completely true... a lot of these guys were still among the best D men in hockey aged late 30's or ~40.

Pronger, Bourque, Chelios, Stevens, Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Leetch, MacInnis, Housley, Murphy, Coffey, Suter were all playing for several years at the same time. Ofc some were past their best, but a lot of them were still damn good players. Pretty sure all of those guys are better than anyone in the NHL atm.

Both Hatchers, Blake, Numinen, Desjardins, Zubov, Duchesne, Patrick, Olausson, Wesley, Gonchar etc were no slouches either around that time. Then even guys like Jovocop, Schneider, Ozolins and Ohlund etc.
I still miss him...

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12-16-2013, 02:42 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Eh. Chara has only won the Norris after his competition completely thinned out. Stevens never had his competition thin out; I would still take him over Chara. Chelios was most definitely better than Chara...he won 3 Norris Trophies against some hard competitors in Coffey, Bourque and Leetch. Lidstrom also had some really hard competition compared to Chara.

Anyhow, it's semantics; in general, I think there is less top D talent right now than there has been from the 80s through mid 2000s, and that's definitely helping to drive the price of the talent available upwards. Some of the younger guys might pan out, but that's in the future and even still there's less in general than there once was.
I don't think the Norris trophy is that great to judge modern defensemen as it has become the best offensive defenseman trophy. There is no way Subban or Karlson are as good a defenseman as Chara or even Weber. I get what ur saying though but I think everything looks better in hindsight. The other thing too is a lot of those guys you mentioned played on very successful popular teams. The best defensemen in today's game besides Chara and Keith play their games in obscure locations or on the west coast: Suter, Weber, Oel, and Doughty.

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12-16-2013, 02:44 PM
  #164
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I still miss him...
Same... he was still damn good when he retired. One of my favourite 10 Flyers all time for sure. Though ~97-now is not that long!

Lindros, Richards, Kapanen, Handzus, Desjardins, Timonen, Primeau, Leclair, Brind'Amour and Gagne would be the 10 in order I reckon.

Recchi, Giroux, Forsberg, Pronger, Couturier, Briere and Johnsson are the also rans.

I liked Brashear and Roenick as well. And had a soft spot for McGillis and Bundy. I also remember loving Gratton when I first started liking the Flyers... I thought he would be the next great Flyers player!

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12-16-2013, 02:46 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Same... he was still damn good when he retired. One of my favourite 10 Flyers all time for sure. Though ~97-now is not that long!

Lindros, Richards, Kapanen, Handzus, Desjardins, Timonen, Primeau, Leclair, Brind'Amour and Gagne would be the 10 in order I reckon.

Recchi, Giroux, Forsberg, Pronger, Couturier, Briere and Johnsson are the also rans.

I liked Brashear and Roenick as well. And had a soft spot for McGillis and Bundy. I also remember loving Gratton when I first started liking the Flyers... I thought he would be the next great Flyers player!
I really liked Hatcher, especially how he greeted Crosby into the NHL .

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12-16-2013, 02:50 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
I don't think the Norris trophy is that great to judge modern defensemen as it has become the best offensive defenseman trophy. There is no way Subban or Karlson are as good a defenseman as Chara or even Weber. I get what ur saying though but I think everything looks better in hindsight. The other thing too is a lot of those guys you mentioned played on very successful popular teams. The best defensemen in today's game besides Chara and Keith play their games in obscure locations or on the west coast: Suter, Weber, Oel, and Doughty.
It's not that much hindsight. A lot of those guys only recently retired and were dominating the other dmen in the league. We know how they looked and fared on the ice, and how they compared to each other and current competition. It's not too difficult to make the comparison and decide if the current crop of talent is inferior to what we had even a decade ago.

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12-16-2013, 02:56 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Completely true... a lot of these guys were still among the best D men in hockey aged late 30's or ~40.

Pronger, Bourque, Chelios, Stevens, Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Leetch, MacInnis, Housley, Murphy, Coffey, Suter were all playing for several years at the same time. Ofc some were past their best, but a lot of them were still damn good players. Pretty sure all of those guys are better than anyone in the NHL atm.

Both Hatchers, Blake, Numinen, Desjardins, Zubov, Duchesne, Patrick, Olausson, Wesley, Gonchar etc were no slouches either around that time. Then even guys like Jovocop, Schneider, Ozolins and Ohlund etc.
Now that is list of #1 D-Men!
Scary how good D was in the 90's
There are like 8 Hall of Famers on that list

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12-16-2013, 03:04 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Same... he was still damn good when he retired. One of my favourite 10 Flyers all time for sure. Though ~97-now is not that long!

Lindros, Richards, Kapanen, Handzus, Desjardins, Timonen, Primeau, Leclair, Brind'Amour and Gagne would be the 10 in order I reckon.

Recchi, Giroux, Forsberg, Pronger, Couturier, Briere and Johnsson are the also rans.

I liked Brashear and Roenick as well. And had a soft spot for McGillis and Bundy. I also remember loving Gratton when I first started liking the Flyers... I thought he would be the next great Flyers player!
Mcgillis was one of my favorite flyers as a kid. Dude could hit, fight, and had absolute cannon. I always wanted to play like him when I played hockey growing up.

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12-16-2013, 03:08 PM
  #169
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Mcgillis was one of my favorite flyers as a kid. Dude could hit, fight, and had absolute cannon. I always wanted to play like him when I played hockey growing up.
One of the lockout victims... sad, his game was great but his skating was subpar, once the lockout happened he was pretty much done.

His shot was absurd.

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12-16-2013, 03:35 PM
  #170
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If that's the case, then you don't draft Sean Couturier, you draft Dougie Hamilton. People like to talk about the Flyers neglect of the goalie position, but both Holmgren and Clarke have long neglected the defense position as well. This team has been collecting old pylons for as long as I remember. I can only remember one flyers team, the recent cup team, that had two fully formed defense pairs that could move the puck. After that it was maybe one or two guys and a bunch of tough defensive only guys.
I have said it time and time again, Hamilton was the pick to get the Flyers started in the right direction.
Couturier was a safer pick to the Flyers, but one with less future value than a possible #1 defenseman.
Instead of building from the goalie and defense out, the Flyers collect centers, it drives me nuts.
Then they sign a couple of retreads and think they can compete for the CUP.
There is a reason these veterans are available, their skills have eroded.

First, Holmgren needs to be fired. He cannot fix this mess he made.
Second, Hextall needs to inform Snyder that he will trade anyone needed to fix the team.
Third, the Flyers will trade to acquire at least one great skating offensive defensemen (PMD) which could become #1 defenseman.
Two mobile and quick skating defenseman would be better, of course.
Fourth, after the Flyers retool the defense, then they can start focusing on the front end problems that exist.


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12-16-2013, 03:45 PM
  #171
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It was rumored the Flyers weren't as high on Hamilton as Siemens. If Couturier didn't fall the #8 there was a high chance they would have picked Siemens. So most likely in that event the team still wouldn't have Hamilton.

The way the team is now, they aren't winning anything. There are also no realistic trades that can really turn this team around in one swoop. I think the best thing to do now is nothing. Wait until the off-season, evaluate the players to keep, and get a new GM.

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