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Old
12-17-2013, 01:50 PM
  #76
Lafleurs Guy
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In a "primarily defensive role" he shouldn't be getting a single second of PP time nor should he be playing with our best centre. You can't have your cake and eat it too: either the reality is that he's given opportunities and just sucks or he shouldn't given those chances. In either case he merits a ton of criticism and I want nothing more than him to get the f out of a Habs jersey. What a waste.
I'm not a huge fan of Gionta's but he's way down on the list of players to get rid of. Problem is we have so many passengers that should probably get shipped out, he's way down on the list. So much so that I don't see how we can let him walk if we let some of these other guys go.

Gionta seems to be good enough defensively that I'm alright with him on Plec's line as he seems to be the defacto shutdown guy right now. Misses out on some passes (that hopefully will go to Galchenyuk now) but at least he's not a defensive hole like DD.

You're dead on right on the PP though. He shouldn't be on there ever and neither should DD or Bouillion. Hate the coach not the player on that one though...
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White gets a free pass from an absurd amount of people for an absurd amount of reasons because he's gritty and can fight. Same goes for Murray. But meanwhile we have to push actual hockey players like Gionta and Diaz out the door because they don't fit the "more bigger, more stronger!" obsession.
Diaz is a great 3rd pairing guy. Just needs to be paired with a guy who can handle the physical load. Murray would fit the bill if he wasn't so slow. Again, if we had a strong #3 our blueline would be pretty strong. Emelin or Gorges goes to the 3rd pairing with Diaz... that's a good group.

I do think we need to get bigger and stronger overall though, don't you?

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12-17-2013, 01:52 PM
  #77
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White gets a free pass from an absurd amount of people for an absurd amount of reasons because he's gritty and can fight. Same goes for Murray. But meanwhile we have to push actual hockey players like Gionta and Diaz out the door because they don't fit the "more bigger, more stronger!" obsession.
how many playoffs series losses will it take for us to understand that 'bigger/more stronger', when combined with skill, will win you playoff series.


A player like gionta and bouillion will NOT win you a playoff series. We have some decent skill on the team already, those two spots would be better used up by bigger/tougher role players.

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12-17-2013, 01:56 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
In a "primarily defensive role" he shouldn't be getting a single second of PP time nor should he be playing with our best centre. You can't have your cake and eat it too: either the reality is that he's given opportunities and just sucks or he shouldn't given those chances. In either case he merits a ton of criticism and I want nothing more than him to get the f out of a Habs jersey. What a waste.
Time for some facts:


Brian gionta is currently sitting at 4.2 p/60 on the man advantage this year. Putting him just below.... Andrei Markov at 4.3p/60 and above Briere, Galchenyuk, Eller, DD, Gallagher and Diaz.


Not too shabby. Granted, he's not had a goal on the PP yet which can be distressing, but considering his point production on one of the leagues best power plays, he's not exactly holding it back, is he?

Anyway, I meant 'primarily a defensive role' with regards to his 5v5 minutes. Here's the problem, Pleks needs a tough minutes winger or else he gets overrun. We've seen this in the past. Now I wouldn't mind separating those two if we could get another tough minutes winger on the left side (we don't have another right winger close to gionta in terms of two way play), but guess who our strong, two way left winger is? Of course, Max Pacioretty. I'd be all for putting him with pleks, as statistically, they've done well together in the past, but try convinving therrien (or maxpac, for that matter) that he separate him from his chou-chou Desharnais.

So as long as you plan on using Pleks as your top defending center, you don't really have a choice but to pair him with Gionta. Ideal? Of course not. But it's the best we can do.

All that being said, it shows your bias has gotten the better of you. He doesn't deserve a tenth of the hate he gets around here, and unless we replace him with a true tough minutes right winger next year, we'll be worse off for losing him. And I'm not even some big Gionta fan. I sincerely can't stand how boring he is to watch. But I'd rather sit through a boring team that wins than a losing team that's exciting like the oilers.

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Originally Posted by GeoStride87 View Post
how many playoffs series losses will it take for us to understand that 'bigger/more stronger', when combined with skill, will win you playoff series.


A player like gionta and bouillion will NOT win you a playoff series. We have some decent skill on the team already, those two spots would be better used up by bigger/tougher role players.
Yeah, what's that scrub Gionta ever won before?

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Old
12-17-2013, 01:56 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm not a huge fan of Gionta's but he's way down on the list of players to get rid of. Problem is we have so many passengers that should probably get shipped out, he's way down on the list. So much so that I don't see how we can let him walk if we let some of these other guys go.

Gionta seems to be good enough defensively that I'm alright with him on Plec's line as he seems to be the defacto shutdown guy right now. Misses out on some passes (that hopefully will go to Galchenyuk now) but at least he's not a defensive hole like DD.

You're dead on right on the PP though. He shouldn't be on there ever and neither should DD or Bouillion. Hate the coach not the player on that one though...

Diaz is a great 3rd pairing guy. Just needs to be paired with a guy who can handle the physical load. Murray would fit the bill if he wasn't so slow. Again, if we had a strong #3 our blueline would be pretty strong. Emelin or Gorges goes to the 3rd pairing with Diaz... that's a good group.
I'll agree with you there, Gionta by no means is a passenger. The guy has character and plays with pride. he gives it all every shift, and is probably a great example for our younger players. He's also very fast and yes, defensively reliable. He also has some great puck deflection skills.

that being said, his shot is weak, has no accuracy, he cant pass if his life depended on it, and really no longer is an offensive threat, therefore should NOT be relied on for offence. This means no powerplay time, and no last minute shifts when we need a goal.

All his "positives' point to a really good third line player. Problem is, all those could be found in a number of players bigger/tougher that could be had for cheap.

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12-17-2013, 01:58 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
In a "primarily defensive role" he shouldn't be getting a single second of PP time nor should he be playing with our best centre. You can't have your cake and eat it too: either the reality is that he's given opportunities and just sucks or he shouldn't given those chances. In either case he merits a ton of criticism and I want nothing more than him to get the f out of a Habs jersey. What a waste.
But the reality also is that we don't have that many options and Plekanec has the toughest matchups and needs a player like Gionta to support him in that role. Also, he's the 7th most used forward on the PP. He might be taking a bit of time from other forwards, but he probably gets his time when his line is the hot hand and deserves some shifts on the PP.

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12-17-2013, 01:58 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Time for some facts:


Brian gionta is currently sitting at 4.2 p/60 on the man advantage this year. Putting him just below.... Andrei Markov at 4.3p/60 and above Briere, Galchenyuk, Eller, DD, Gallagher and Diaz.


Not too shabby. Granted, he's not had a goal on the PP yet which can be distressing, but considering his point production on one of the leagues best power plays, he's not exactly holding it back, is he?

Anyway, I meant 'primarily a defensive role' with regards to his 5v5 minutes. Here's the problem, Pleks needs a tough minutes winger or else he gets overrun. We've seen this in the past. Now I wouldn't mind separating those two if we could get another tough minutes winger on the left side (we don't have another right winger close to gionta in terms of two way play), but guess who our strong, two way left winger is? Of course, Max Pacioretty. I'd be all for putting him with pleks, as statistically, they've done well together in the past, but try convinving therrien (or maxpac, for that matter) that he separate him from his chou-chou Desharnais.

So as long as you plan on using Pleks as your top defending center, you don't really have a choice but to pair him with Gionta. Ideal? Of course not. But it's the best we can do.

All that being said, it shows your bias has gotten the better of you. He doesn't deserve a tenth of the hate he gets around here, and unless we replace him with a true tough minutes right winger next year, we'll be worse off for losing him. And I'm not even some big Gionta fan. I sincerely can't stand how boring he is to watch. But I'd rather sit through a boring team that wins than a losing team that's exciting like the oilers.



Yeah, what's that scrub Gionta ever won before?
Alright, if the point i was making wasn't clear enough, let me clarify. A player like gionta playing big minutes for you at this point in his career, wont win you a playoff series.

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12-17-2013, 02:04 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
The gionta hate is so childish around here. He plays a primarily defensive role at this point in his career and chips in some offense now and then. How people can't be bothered to figure this out, I don't know.

Hfboards, where if you don't put up points, you're useless.
He's mediocre at best defensively at this point. I find his defensive prowess completely overrated. The fact that he doesn't make glaring mistakes in the defensive end does not mean that he excels at a defensive role. He's solid defensively, that's it and it certainly isn't enough to make up for his black-hole offense nor is it a reason to completely neuter our best center by ALWAYS having him on his wing.

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12-17-2013, 02:04 PM
  #83
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But the reality also is that we don't have that many options and Plekanec has the toughest matchups and needs a player like Gionta to support him in that role. Also, he's the 7th most used forward on the PP. He might be taking a bit of time from other forwards, but he probably gets his time when his line is the hot hand and deserves some shifts on the PP.
This is the problem. Who else is there? Are we going to move Eller to the wing? Paccioretty I guess but I'd prefer him in a straight up scoring role. So who else is there? Prust? I don't know man...

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12-17-2013, 02:05 PM
  #84
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Well is he mediocre defensively, or solid defensively?

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12-17-2013, 02:06 PM
  #85
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Well is he mediocre defensively, or solid defensively?
I vote mediocre. Solid isn't an option. You can have good, bad or mediocre.

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12-17-2013, 02:08 PM
  #86
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I vote mediocre. Solid isn't an option. You can have good, bad or mediocre.
It was more a response to WTK's post, where he starts off by calliong Gionta mediocre defensively and then, mid-way through his post, changes gears and admits that Gionta is solid defensively.

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12-17-2013, 02:11 PM
  #87
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Brings more than Gionta at this point.
At what, being physical? That's about it.

Gionta is better offensively and defensively.

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12-17-2013, 02:11 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Diaz is a great 3rd pairing guy. Just needs to be paired with a guy who can handle the physical load. Murray would fit the bill if he wasn't so slow. Again, if we had a strong #3 our blueline would be pretty strong. Emelin or Gorges goes to the 3rd pairing with Diaz... that's a good group.

I do think we need to get bigger and stronger overall though, don't you?
Sure, but not to the point where I'm going to trumpet the virtue of guys like White and Murry over guys like Gionta and Diaz.

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12-17-2013, 02:13 PM
  #89
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He's mediocre at best defensively at this point. I find his defensive prowess completely overrated. The fact that he doesn't make glaring mistakes in the defensive end does not mean that he excels at a defensive role. He's solid defensively, that's it and it certainly isn't enough to make up for his black-hole offense nor is it a reason to completely neuter our best center by ALWAYS having him on his wing.
Blind hate there. I hate Gio too. I think he might just be the worst captain we've had. He produces nothing offensively, and I've been saying that since 2010-2011. He's a third liner on any contender. He's a good 3rd liner actually... but we have a team filled with about 5 or 6 third line winger....

With that said, you can't say he's mediocre defensively. Oh wait, you said he was solid, don't mind my post.

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12-17-2013, 02:17 PM
  #90
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since when do players who play 'primarily a defensive role' get the bulk of Powerplay time, and are on in the last minute when the team needs a goal?

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, I have a lot of respect for what gionta's done in his career, but hes the type of player who, when not scoring, isn't of much value aside from the leadership he brings. The positives he brings right now, 1) hustle, 2) speed, 3) reliable defensive play can easily be replaced by a bigger and more physical player for third line/defensive duties.

edit: I should add that I think a lot of the 'hate' players on this team get are more directed to the roles that they are asked to play by Therrien. IE: gionta on the powerplay/last minute, Franky Boo on the powerplay, etc etc
Gionta is 9th on the team in PP time among forwards, 11th overall. How is that the "bulk of powerplay time"?

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12-17-2013, 02:18 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Crimson Skorpion View Post
It was more a response to WTK's post, where he starts off by calliong Gionta mediocre defensively and then, mid-way through his post, changes gears and admits that Gionta is solid defensively.
I was just referring to the list we have going in the Price thread.
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Sure, but not to the point where I'm going to trumpet the virtue of guys like White and Murry over guys like Gionta and Diaz.
Neither would I...

Murray over Bouillion though I think is the right call. I realize that the advanced stat heads have arguments against this but I think Murray's the better of the two evils there.

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12-17-2013, 02:19 PM
  #92
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I was just referring to the list we have going in the Price thread.

Neither would I...

Murray over Bouillion though I think is the right call. I realize that the advanced stat heads have arguments against this but I think Murray's the better of the two evils there.
I would agree with that. I probably liked Bouillon more than most last year in his role, but he just hasn't been good this year. Murray hasn't been much better, but at least he does bring that physical element we're missing.

So yeah, between two equally bad players, I'll take the physical one

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12-17-2013, 02:22 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Crimson Skorpion View Post
It was more a response to WTK's post, where he starts off by calliong Gionta mediocre defensively and then, mid-way through his post, changes gears and admits that Gionta is solid defensively.
mediocre.. solid.. they are the same thing. Average. Way over blown how "good" defensively he is. He just doesn't make glaring mistakes in the defensive end. I cannot think of a time in recent memory, last two seasons, maybe beyond, where I saw Gionta play in his own end and thought he was doing a good job of shutting anyone down. All I ever see is a veteran who knows how to make a safe play.

Let me clear it up perfectly here. Gionta is a non-factor in the defensive zone. He doesn't shut anybody down, he doesn't make critical clears or critical board battle victories, he merely limits mistakes and stays in good positioning. Both things that you expect from a veteran.

In the offensive zone he is a negative factor and is severely ruining the offensive play of his center and to an extent, the other winger or pinching defenseman into an offensive play.

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12-17-2013, 02:33 PM
  #94
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In the offensive zone he is a negative factor and is severely ruining the offensive play of his center and to an extent, the other winger or pinching defenseman into an offensive play.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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12-17-2013, 02:35 PM
  #95
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Except "solid" is not average, WTK.

By, "Oh! What a solid hit by Eller on Tavares!" did they mean, "Oh! What an average hit by Eller on Tavares!" ?

In the 2010 playoffs, Gorges was considered a force defensively. Often, he was called "solid". This year, Murray has been called mediocre defensively. Are you telling me that the 2010 Gorges and the 2013 Murray are "pretty much the same thing"?

Your hatred runs so deep you have resorted to changing the very definition of some words now. Scary.

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12-17-2013, 02:41 PM
  #96
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The execution has been god awful since the Los Angeles game. The scoring chances can be counted on one hand and the transition is lacking. They also usually have problems with lesser western teams that play a sound defensive game. Let's hope the boys rebound tonight and get an other streak going.

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12-17-2013, 02:49 PM
  #97
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Funny, our forwards are capable of doing that all by themselves.
I thought the exact same thing writing that post

That's kinda sad.

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12-17-2013, 02:50 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Crimson Skorpion View Post
Except "solid" is not average, WTK.

By, "Oh! What a solid hit by Eller on Tavares!" did they mean, "Oh! What an average hit by Eller on Tavares!" ?

In the 2010 playoffs, Gorges was considered a force defensively. Often, he was called "solid". This year, Murray has been called mediocre defensively. Are you telling me that the 2010 Gorges and the 2013 Murray are "pretty much the same thing"?

Your hatred runs so deep you have resorted to changing the very definition of some words now. Scary.
In your example, solid means a hit with some steady force and mass behind it.

Solid in WTK's sense, or in a "That player is solid defensively" refers to a player who is above average and some times plays great defensively.

It's not really Gionta's fault, but I've seen too many times where Gionta's stubby arms put him far enough behind a player to hinder a good scoring chance. Gionta's best attributes at this point in time is he, more than not knows where to go for a play. However, if it's a battle against the boards he loses it more than he wins. He (Though not a lone) seem to love to ice the puck all the time and for a player who takes a fluttering wrist shot, or a slap shot 10 feet wide he picks and chooses when to get back defensively double time, or just coast.

He seriously should not be brought back.

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12-17-2013, 02:51 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Crimson Skorpion View Post
Except "solid" is not average, WTK.

By, "Oh! What a solid hit by Eller on Tavares!" did they mean, "Oh! What an average hit by Eller on Tavares!" ?

In the 2010 playoffs, Gorges was considered a force defensively. Often, he was called "solid". This year, Murray has been called mediocre defensively. Are you telling me that the 2010 Gorges and the 2013 Murray are "pretty much the same thing"?

Your hatred runs so deep you have resorted to changing the very definition of some words now. Scary.
I hate how he isn't 1ft taller and 50 lbs heavier.

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12-17-2013, 03:00 PM
  #100
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In your example, solid means a hit with some steady force and mass behind it.

Solid in WTK's sense, or in a "That player is solid defensively" refers to a player who is above average and some times plays great defensively.
And that's fine and all but it completely ignores my second point. Posters here called Gorges solid in 2010. We call Markov solid now. In the same breath, we call Murray mediocre.

In 2010, a lot of us wanted Gorges to be captain. Don Cherry gushed all over him and called for him to be the next captain. So did the definition of the word solid change in three years or did media and fans alike want the next captain to be a slightly better than average defenseman who SOMETIMES is great?

I'll call it the way I see it. Posters here are so heated towards Gionta, they are literally tripping over themselves to discredit the captain, meanwhile actual facts and stats are being overlooked because "he shoots da puck at da crest all da time."

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