HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Hide the women and children..Snider wants changes!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-17-2013, 02:39 PM
  #51
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
What I said was that most GM's are going to want the guys on the initial protected list.

I was challenged, because apparently that was incorrect. I said that there are a number of players that are questionable - not that they're not worthwhile players, but they're far from the first guys another GM will ask about. Is that incorrect also?
Yeah, it is incorrect, because that's not what you said. You said GMs wouldn't want anybody who is not on the protected list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Your list includes pretty much the only players and pick that would be attractive to other teams.

You have since moved to a more reasonable stance, so I'll consider my work here done.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 02:41 PM
  #52
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,694
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
What I said was that most GM's are going to want the guys on the initial protected list.

I was challenged, because apparently that was incorrect. I said that there are a number of players that are questionable - not that they're not worthwhile players, but they're far from the first guys another GM will ask about. Is that incorrect also?

Personally, I'd drive Simmonds out of town if it meant that a strong smart two-way forward was coming back. I'd drive LSchenn out of town if it meant that a very good young puck moving defenseman was coming back. I just don't see that happening. Maybe you all do, and I'm undervaluing these players. Or maybe I'm not wrong.
I would venture to guess that Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, Coburn, Couturier, and Read all have tremendous trade value if they were really in play. You may not like Simmonds as a player (kind of like how I'm not a huge fan of Schenn), but that doesn't mean other teams wouldn't love to bring on a player of his skill set. Simmonds would be great on a team that didn't already have Hartnell, Schenn, and Downie that play similar games. Even with that said, I would still take him over any of those players mentioned before him.

Simmonds is a pretty good two-way player. He's not excellent, but he's certainly not awful. Not every player on your roster has be Mike Richards in order for you to have a good defensive team.

flyershockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 02:52 PM
  #53
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
What is the plan exactly? I'm still trying to figure it out. I kind of saw it with the Richards and Carter trades and then as I've previously said, Holmgren hasn't followed them up properly. He wasn't measured with his high stakes bet on Parise, Suter and Weber and it set this team back since he didn't have a plan B or it was too late to implement one.
Ugh, I'm so sick of hearing about this supposed "strike out".

Parise, Weber, and Suter were not plan A. They were merely Holmgren doing his due diligence. The goal that summer was to keep the core together and build off a relatively successful 10-11 campaign. If you're referring to Carle, then the utility he would provide was not nearly worth (even the discounted) price he was going to cost to re-sign.

Quote:
This past offseason he tried to address the mistakes of the previous (two) season(s) because he was able to buy himself out of them with the amenesties. As I suspected they were lateral moves that simply stabilized the team but didn't necessarily put them on the path forward. They are pretty much stuck in neutral and if the goaltending goes again they will regress to last year's futility.
What exactly are your suggestions for putting the team on the path forward? The only possible (realistic) option is patience. Wait for the kids to grow.

Other than that, the only options are to kick the tires on chances that don't materialize often (eg, Parise, Suter, Weber).

What should he have done differently this summer? Honestly. I don't get it. We all thought he had one hell of an offseason given what he had to work with. How exactly could he have put the team on "the path forward"?

Quote:
Either way, they are looking at two seasons of not making the playoffs. At some point the GM has to assume some responsibility for that. Keeping Holmgren is not a measured plan....at best Holmgren will just continue to be inconsistent..he will win some of his gambles and lose them since that is how he GM's. I still think part of it is because Snider meddles too much and doesn't empower his GM enough to be his own man..the other part is that I don't particularly think Holmgren is the type of GM to assemble a Stanley Cup contender any longer. He is frazzled IMO...
Right, but the 2011 shakeup was a long term plan. We are maybe in the middle of it. Ditching Holmgren now would be cutting that plan short in the middle of it. Isn't that short sighted?

Did you honestly expect immediate success after dealing Richards and Carter?

Again, I don't necessarily think we should keep Holmgren past this season-- but, the reasons I'm seeing for ditching him are extremely contradictory.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 02:54 PM
  #54
CharlieGirl
Get well soon Kimmo
 
CharlieGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,853
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Simmonds is a pretty good two-way player. He's not excellent, but he's certainly not awful. Not every player on your roster has be Mike Richards in order for you to have a good defensive team.
I disagree. Right now, Simmonds is tied for the team worst in +/- at -9. We probably agree that the stat is subjective, but in comparison to his teammates, it's a pretty good indication (Couturier is +2 playing against what I would bet is much tougher competition). Voracek, who I don't think anyone would argue is a good defensive forward, is -2.

Part of the problem on this team last year and this year is that there are so few forwards with much defensive awareness, so it puts a lot more pressure on the defensemen and goalies.

I'm not asking for a Mike Richards type player (and no, BSchenn ain't it). I am hoping that Holmgren figures out one day that team defense is important.

CharlieGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 02:59 PM
  #55
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
I would venture to guess that Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, Coburn, Couturier, and Read all have tremendous trade value if they were really in play. You may not like Simmonds as a player (kind of like how I'm not a huge fan of Schenn), but that doesn't mean other teams wouldn't love to bring on a player of his skill set. Simmonds would be great on a team that didn't already have Hartnell, Schenn, and Downie that play similar games. Even with that said, I would still take him over any of those players mentioned before him.

Simmonds is a pretty good two-way player. He's not excellent, but he's certainly not awful. Not every player on your roster has be Mike Richards in order for you to have a good defensive team.
Simmonds is terrible in his own zone. And Schenn is not the same type of player.

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:01 PM
  #56
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,694
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
I disagree. Right now, Simmonds is tied for the team worst in +/- at -9. We probably agree that the stat is subjective, but in comparison to his teammates, it's a pretty good indication (Couturier is +2 playing against what I would bet is much tougher competition). Voracek, who I don't think anyone would argue is a good defensive forward, is -2.

Part of the problem on this team last year and this year is that there are so few forwards with much defensive awareness, so it puts a lot more pressure on the defensemen and goalies.

I'm not asking for a Mike Richards type player (and no, BSchenn ain't it). I am hoping that Holmgren figures out one day that team defense is important.
+/- is a horrible stat to use to judge a players defensive play, especially for a winger who has very little influence in the defensive zone. He's there to cover his point man and to make sure that nobody walks out of his corner to the top of the circle. He has no control over the other 75% of the defensive zone. I do know he wins the majority of his board battles and very rarely coughs up the puck at his own blue line. The neutral zone coverage is about zone discipline, and it's almost impossible to keep an eye on that for every single shift he's out there.

flyershockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:04 PM
  #57
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,694
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Simmonds is terrible in his own zone. And Schenn is not the same type of player.
Believe what you want. They're a lot closer than you would care to admit. Neither guy excels with the puck on his stick, and they both rely on their linemates for puck posession. Both guys are at their best in front of the net. What exactly do they do that's so different?

flyershockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:09 PM
  #58
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Ugh, I'm so sick of hearing about this supposed "strike out".

Parise, Weber, and Suter were not plan A. They were merely Holmgren doing his due diligence. The goal that summer was to keep the core together and build off a relatively successful 10-11 campaign. If you're referring to Carle, then the utility he would provide was not nearly worth (even the discounted) price he was going to cost to re-sign.


What exactly are your suggestions for putting the team on the path forward? The only possible (realistic) option is patience. Wait for the kids to grow.

Other than that, the only options are to kick the tires on chances that don't materialize often (eg, Parise, Suter, Weber).

What should he have done differently this summer? Honestly. I don't get it. We all thought he had one hell of an offseason given what he had to work with. How exactly could he have put the team on "the path forward"?


Right, but the 2011 shakeup was a long term plan. We are maybe in the middle of it. Ditching Holmgren now would be cutting that plan short in the middle of it. Isn't that short sighted?

Did you honestly expect immediate success after dealing Richards and Carter?

Again, I don't necessarily think we should keep Holmgren past this season-- but, the reasons I'm seeing for ditching him are extremely contradictory.
So you agreed with his miscalc of holding onto Lavi 3 games into the season as well when it was obvious to anybody with a brain that his time was expired? Not only that he was starting to cause our core to rot. Who is responsible for that gaffe which in retrospect might be the straw that breaks the camel's back in not making the playoffs.

There is a host of missteps he's had since the Carter and Richards trades and they were very blatant last offseason in particular. The Parise and Suter sweepstakes was not due diligence ..that was high stakes poker. He lost...especially since he let Jagr and Carle stew and they bolted. The Weber attempt was high stakes but more reasonable since he wanted to come here. With Parise and Suter..it was always a package deal and even if Parise said he was willing to play here Suter probably wasn't...so people hanging their hat on that half truth by Parise (about wanting to play for the Flyers) are misguided.

Anyway, holding onto an expired coach was not a path forward. Yeah his get out of jail free cards that he used on Streit, Vinny and Emery were ok but it still didn't put them on a path forward since the contracts to the former 2 will hamstring them later. They were bridge/lateral moves he had to make and luckily he could with the buyouts but it doesn't show him to be some genius. Buying your way out of problems is not exactly great business acumen.

Again..a path forward is to get rid of an inconsistent GM. Not sure what is contradictory about that stance? A measured approach doesn't just mean standing pat...it means making precision decisions that have a postive feedback loop. Keeping a mediocre GM whose team might miss the playoffs two years in a row in my book is not measured. It's no different than saying the Flyers should have kept Lavi and been patient with the core when again he was actually being a detriment. That is how I see Holmgren...I would just much rather have Hextall take over at this point since it seems like it will happen anyway especially if they miss the playoffs again.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:10 PM
  #59
CharlieGirl
Get well soon Kimmo
 
CharlieGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,853
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
+/- is a horrible stat to use to judge a players defensive play, especially for a winger who has very little influence in the defensive zone. He's there to cover his point man and to make sure that nobody walks out of his corner to the top of the circle. He has no control over the other 75% of the defensive zone. I do know he wins the majority of his board battles and very rarely coughs up the puck at his own blue line. The neutral zone coverage is about zone discipline, and it's almost impossible to keep an eye on that for every single shift he's out there.
Okay (I disagree but let's go with it). Why do you think Simmonds +/- is worse than any of the other wingers on the team and all but one defenseman?

I think the career year he had masked a lot of his faults, and we're now seeing the real player. An energy guy that will get some goals and cause havoc out there. Not a bad player to have, but hardly a game changer.

CharlieGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:14 PM
  #60
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Wing or Retire!
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alexandria
Country: Liberia
Posts: 37,269
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Believe what you want. They're a lot closer than you would care to admit. Neither guy excels with the puck on his stick, and they both rely on their linemates for puck posession. Both guys are at their best in front of the net. What exactly do they do that's so different?
I can agree with this. If anything Simmonds is better with the puck on his stick, because when he's on his game he can at least charge through the neutral zone and skate straight up to the goalie. When was the last time Schenn did anything like that? Unfortunately, Simmonds' go to move when he gets to the net is to slam the puck into the goalie's leg pads as hard as he can, as if he expects that this is finally the time when he'll blow the puck through the goalie's leg, scoring a goal and crippling the netminder beyond what modern medicine can repair. Unsurprisingly, that has routinely failed to happen.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:20 PM
  #61
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,694
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Okay (I disagree but let's go with it). Why do you think Simmonds +/- is worse than any of the other wingers on the team and all but one defenseman?

I think the career year he had masked a lot of his faults, and we're now seeing the real player. An energy guy that will get some goals and cause havoc out there. Not a bad player to have, but hardly a game changer.
Well, he's not a great producer at 5 on 5. He does the bulk of his scoring on the power play. Producing at 5 on 5 would greatly help his +/-. He also hasn't ever played with a defensively responsible center while on the Flyers. He played with Briere the last two years. And this year, he's played with Lecavalier and Schenn. Lecavalier is -6 through 22 games. Schenn is even despite being noticeably worse in his own zone.

flyershockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:22 PM
  #62
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If anything Simmonds is better with the puck on his stick, because when he's on his game he can at least charge through the neutral zone and skate straight up to the goalie.
I'm not sure I agree with this.....Simmonds is a turnover prone when carrying the puck in the neutral zone. He's better suited at crashing the net and working the corners on a hard forecheck...without the puck. In other words....he's more of a "garbage collector" when he does get the puck...

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:26 PM
  #63
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,075
vCash: 500
The implied scenario in this thread is that Holmgren, after a door-slamming tirade from Mr. Snider, will pick up the phone and start cold-calling other GMs in a desperate attempt to land a thoroughbred or two for a few of the also-rans and roster anchors currently wearing the Flyers jersey. I'd be pretty upset if he didn't already have a very good idea of the value of most of the Flyers roster in the eyes of his colleagues, and is continually talking with the fellow GMs about potential moves.

Sure, circumstances change, especially if there's a new element of desperation that someone else can exploit, but I think one would assume that generally about a half-dozen potential deals just need some fine-tuning to balance things out. I also highly doubt that a GM would pull up a player profile on TSN, see that player X is COLD (0 pts in last 3 games) and completely change his mind on the player's value.

BernieParent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:28 PM
  #64
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,694
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I can agree with this. If anything Simmonds is better with the puck on his stick, because when he's on his game he can at least charge through the neutral zone and skate straight up to the goalie. When was the last time Schenn did anything like that? Unfortunately, Simmonds' go to move when he gets to the net is to slam the puck into the goalie's leg pads as hard as he can, as if he expects that this is finally the time when he'll blow the puck through the goalie's leg, scoring a goal and crippling the netminder beyond what modern medicine can repair. Unsurprisingly, that has routinely failed to happen.
Simmonds should be playing more like Tomas Holmstrom, and less like a traditional power forward. That's not to say he can't ever skate with the puck, but you want his linemates doing the heavy lifting in regards to puck possession. Schenn has the ability to be more of a puck possession player, but I'm not sure why he pulls away from it. Right now, they play similar games, with Schenn having the potential to be more.

flyershockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:48 PM
  #65
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
hockeyfreak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 8,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
So you agreed with his miscalc of holding onto Lavi 3 games into the season as well when it was obvious to anybody with a brain that his time was expired? Not only that he was starting to cause our core to rot. Who is responsible for that gaffe which in retrospect might be the straw that breaks the camel's back in not making the playoffs.
No. Like I said, I'm not advocating hanging onto Holmgren. He's not without his faults. This was a major gaffe, and probably one that could justify him losing his job.

Your initial point was that there is no plan under Holmgren. That things are too reactionary. The Laviolette situation does not prove that point.

My argument is simply that Holmgren does have a plan. Whether you agree with that plan or not, is your opinion, but to argue that the team has no direction is using the same simple logic that main boarders use to argue against Holmgren. Since he blew the team up in the summer of 2011, he's clearly had an agenda he's been maintaining-- sometimes he sticks to that agenda too much. I'd argue that Laviolette was part of his long term plan, and he took too long to realize that it simply wouldn't fit.

Quote:
There is a host of missteps he's had since the Carter and Richards trades and they were very blatant last offseason in particular. The Parise and Suter sweepstakes was not due diligence ..that was high stakes poker. He lost...especially since he let Jagr and Carle stew and they bolted. The Weber attempt was high stakes but more reasonable since he wanted to come here. With Parise and Suter..it was always a package deal and even if Parise said he was willing to play here Suter probably wasn't...so people hanging their hat on that half truth by Parise (about wanting to play for the Flyers) are misguided.
High stakes poker? Are you serious?

First, Carle would cost us more than he would benefit us. He was going to walk simply because he would never justify his cap hit.

So the team gambled Jagr (still debatable) with the potential to land a pair of franchise players. It was low risk, massive reward. Losing Jagr was not a fatal blow. Voracek effectively replaced him immediately after. I am 100% okay with that gamble. I don't see how it is still used against him.

Quote:
Anyway, holding onto an expired coach was not a path forward. Yeah his get out of jail free cards that he used on Streit, Vinny and Emery were ok but it still didn't put them on a path forward since the contracts to the former 2 will hamstring them later. They were bridge/lateral moves he had to make and luckily he could with the buyouts but it doesn't show him to be some genius. Buying your way out of problems is not exactly great business acumen.
So, again, what exactly could he have done this summer to be on the "path forward"? It appears firing Laviolette earlier is all you have. A valid point, but not a very powerful argument in itself. He had a strong offseason, and it's at least justifiable that he would like to see what a good coach could do with an improved lineup even if it appeared his message was growing stale.

Quote:
Again..a path forward is to get rid of an inconsistent GM. Not sure what is contradictory about that stance? A measured approach doesn't just mean standing pat...it means making precision decisions that have a postive feedback loop. Keeping a mediocre GM whose team might miss the playoffs two years in a row in my book is not measured. It's no different than saying the Flyers should have kept Lavi and been patient with the core when again he was actually being a detriment. That is how I see Holmgren...I would just much rather have Hextall take over at this point since it seems like it will happen anyway especially if they miss the playoffs again.
This is pretty reasonable. I can agree with much of it. Since 2011, Holmgren's clearly had a vision he's tried to adhere to. I don't think we can definitely call it a failure because it was a long term approach, but I would agree that a more meticulous and calculating GM may be a better fit to see that long term approach through its end.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:50 PM
  #66
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
How are those not mutually exclusive? If you don't think the team has the potential to be successful, by definition, wouldn't you want management to explore all possible options? I just don't understand how one who has no faith in the team's construction can be upset by Snider's remarks
This team needs changes and improvements, but that starts with patience in letting what looks like bad contracts (Lecavalier and Streit) develop or at least get farther into them, letting the younger talent have a shot at performing on a quality team (Couturier, Voracek, Schenn, Schenn for instance) and letting our D prospects develop. Nobody is happy with this team, but sometimes the best change isn't immediate or rash. It's something you wait for and assess as things develop.

At the moment our top six and a number one D are our biggest problems. We don't have the expendable assets to acquire a number one D without destroying what we have and moving any of our top six players further hurts our situation there considering we have zero prospect talent at the forward position aside from Laughton. The players we would rather move are the older players with risky contracts like Lecavalier and Hartnell that teams will be reluctant to take on (beyond the fact that guys like Hartnell have NMC/NTC contracts).

The point of building a core and utilizing draft picks (like the one we have that looks like it will be relatively high) is to be patient.

Being discontent with the team and wanting it to be different is only mutually exclusive if change has to be immediate. Which it doesn't have to be.

Garbage Goal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:54 PM
  #67
Kevin Danko
Web Design
 
Kevin Danko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 4,084
vCash: 897
If we lose the washington game tonight i think its the final straw.

Kevin Danko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 03:59 PM
  #68
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Wing or Retire!
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alexandria
Country: Liberia
Posts: 37,269
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
I'm not sure I agree with this.....Simmonds is a turnover prone when carrying the puck in the neutral zone. He's better suited at crashing the net and working the corners on a hard forecheck...without the puck. In other words....he's more of a "garbage collector" when he does get the puck...
Well, that's why I specified "when he's on his game."

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:00 PM
  #69
DecadesofFutility
Registered User
 
DecadesofFutility's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wilmington, Delaware
Country: United States
Posts: 439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Okay, you guys win.

It's a complete mystery to me why the Flyers aren't in first place with all this fantastic talent.

The Flyers could trade just one of these gems for a superstar.


Or maybe not...
LOL, the Flyers are overloaded with 2nd and 3rd line talent.
They have one star - Giroux and a couple good players.
This team as whole is overrated, an average team at best.
The defense has overacheived this year, its old and slow.
The Flyers need to package some of their good players to improve their defense.
Successful teams build from the goalie out, solidifying the defense first.
Unfortanately, I do not have faith in Holmgren to make the right moves to fix this mess.

DecadesofFutility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:03 PM
  #70
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Believe what you want. They're a lot closer than you would care to admit. Neither guy excels with the puck on his stick, and they both rely on their linemates for puck posession. Both guys are at their best in front of the net. What exactly do they do that's so different?
Schenn is at his best when shooting not in front of the net, he's not bad there but he's definitely a shooter and Simmonds is not. Simmer also has good speed. Everyone is similar if you generalize it enough.

Also stats are there, Simmonds is terrible defensively. It really doesn't have much to do with belief.

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:04 PM
  #71
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Wing or Retire!
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alexandria
Country: Liberia
Posts: 37,269
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
LOL, the Flyers are overloaded with 2nd and 3rd line talent.
They have one star - Giroux and a couple good players.
This team as whole is overrated, an average team at best.
The defense has overacheived this year, its old and slow.
The Flyers need to package some of their good players to improve their defense.
Successful teams build from the goalie out, solidifying the defense first.
Unfortanately, I do not have faith in Holmgren to make the right moves to fix this mess.
Defense hasn't been a problem...offense has.


So...we're doing what, exactly? Fixing something that isn't broken while ignoring what is? The team is loaded with D prospects right now. The best course is waiting to see what they can become before they strip the core to get a #1 dman. That would be a very stupid panic move.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:14 PM
  #72
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Defense hasn't been a problem...offense has.


So...we're doing what, exactly? Fixing something that isn't broken while ignoring what is? The team is loaded with D prospects right now. The best course is waiting to see what they can become before they strip the core to get a #1 dman. That would be a very stupid panic move.
What don't you get? Defense is over achieving, therefore improve it and ignore the teams current problem that's preventing them from winning games.

Come on!
**Will Arnett Pic**

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:15 PM
  #73
DecadesofFutility
Registered User
 
DecadesofFutility's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wilmington, Delaware
Country: United States
Posts: 439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Defense hasn't been a problem...offense has.


So...we're doing what, exactly? Fixing something that isn't broken while ignoring what is? The team is loaded with D prospects right now. The best course is waiting to see what they can become before they strip the core to get a #1 dman. That would be a very stupid panic move.
The only reason we are back within striking distance of a playoff spot is due to the weakness of our competition.
The defense looks good when the other teams we play are weak as well.

I am not saying trade for a 30-34 year old PMD, in hopes of making the playoffs.
I am just suggesting we reinvest in younger, mobile defensemen in hopes of improving the team overall.
If it costs the Flyers some of our overrated offensive players, so be it.
Having a high powered offense makes the games exciting, but without fixing this defense, this cycle will continue.

DecadesofFutility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:18 PM
  #74
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
The only reason we are back within striking distance of a playoff spot is due to the weakness of our competition.
The defense looks good when the other teams we play are weak as well.

I am not saying trade for a 30-34 year old PMD, in hopes of making the playoffs.
I am just suggesting we reinvest in younger, mobile defensemen in hopes of improving the team overall.
If it costs the Flyers some of our overrated offensive players, so be it.
Having a high powered offense makes the games exciting, but without fixing this defense, this cycle will continue.
Morin, Hagg and Ghost are all young mobile d-men.

Patience is key.

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:22 PM
  #75
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Wing or Retire!
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alexandria
Country: Liberia
Posts: 37,269
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
The only reason we are back within striking distance of a playoff spot is due to the weakness of our competition.
The defense looks good when the other teams we play are weak as well.

I am not saying trade for a 30-34 year old PMD, in hopes of making the playoffs.
I am just suggesting we reinvest in younger, mobile defensemen in hopes of improving the team overall.
If it costs the Flyers some of our overrated offensive players, so be it.
Having a high powered offense makes the games exciting, but without fixing this defense, this cycle will continue.
We have Hagg and Ghost in the system. Why do we need to pay for more young, mobile puck moving defensemen?

This team is not in "win now" mode. We don't need to make any moves to make the team immediately better, because those moves won't make the team good enough to compete. Two crucial components of our core, Couturier and Schenn, still have developing to do. There is time to see if the drafted talent will come into its own. You know...to build from within, that thing successful teams do.

You cannot build a contender by chasing trades to fill holes. You have to build through the draft. The organization is now trying to do that. They need to stick with that course instead of going back to trading all their young picks, prospects, and players. Have you already forgotten that they tried that for several years and had to blow the team up, without even winning anything to show for it? Why do you want to go back to that? It's proven to be a failing strategy, and it's one the team is currently trying to recover from.

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:45 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.