HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Hide the women and children..Snider wants changes!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-17-2013, 04:22 PM
  #76
bauerhockey02
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 227
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Defense hasn't been a problem...offense has.


So...we're doing what, exactly? Fixing something that isn't broken while ignoring what is? The team is loaded with D prospects right now. The best course is waiting to see what they can become before they strip the core to get a #1 dman. That would be a very stupid panic move.
This is exactly how I feel. The only dman I am okay with going after would be Ekblad by moving up in the draft. Otherwise I'd like to be patient with our prospects and look at improving the offense by acquiring someone for giroux and maybe a couple more skilled two-way guys

bauerhockey02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:23 PM
  #77
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,806
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Schenn is at his best when shooting not in front of the net, he's not bad there but he's definitely a shooter and Simmonds is not. Simmer also has good speed. Everyone is similar if you generalize it enough.

Also stats are there, Simmonds is terrible defensively. It really doesn't have much to do with belief.
Where has Schenn been shooting from, other than from four feet out? The biggest point is that neither are puck possession players. They both do most of their work around the net, and neither is much of a threat to score from anywhere else. Simmonds scores dirty goals, whereas Schenn an in close shooter. Huge difference there...

What stats? Plus/minus? I guess the random second pair defensemen that finishes with the highest plus/minus every year is the best defensive player in the league then.

flyershockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:34 PM
  #78
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Where has Schenn been shooting from, other than from four feet out? The biggest point is that neither are puck possession players. They both do most of their work around the net, and neither is much of a threat to score from anywhere else. Simmonds scores dirty goals, whereas Schenn an in close shooter. Huge difference there...

What stats? Plus/minus? I guess the random second pair defensemen that finishes with the highest plus/minus every year is the best defensive player in the league then.
Not plus minus, advanced stats. I'm on my phone so I'm not gonna look them up and post them but you can check them out yourself at behindthenet.ca

And Schenn has a very good shot. Not just from four feet out either. Sure he's good in close but he's also good in the slot. Significantly better then Simmonds when shooting and again over-generalizations like not being a puck possession player doesn't make them similar players, well it does but only in one aspect if a complex game.

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:37 PM
  #79
Appleyard
Registered User
 
Appleyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manc/Shef/Utrecht
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 5,628
vCash: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Morin, Hagg and Ghost are all young mobile d-men.

Patience is key.
I am usually someone (like all of us I imagine) who wants to see this team compete every year as we have come to expect.

But at this moment with the team composition I agree that patience is what is really needed most.

Unless someone heavily overpays or is desperate, or a great deal can be plundered from someone just stay pat.

There is no magic wand that is going to get them to compete for a cup this year or next... they are a borderline playoff team really. (6-10 in the east... depending on how they play.)

Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, Simmonds, Read, Schenn, Laughton and Downie all have a ~6 year window where non should really decline and some should get better. The forward group has the ability and potential to be very good. (individually all apart from Couturier and Schenn have shown that already as well.)

That being said if a package around 2 not named Read, G or Couts could be had for a true 1W I would pull the trigger... I would be hesitant on V and Schenn though, they could come back to bite, Simmer and Downie are the 'safe' tradebaits really... but they have the least value ofc!

The D is trickier really, Coburn, Schenn, Grossmann and Gus could be around for the next ~6 years at a similar level... but that is a #3 and 3 #4/5s most likely, not good enough to compete... that being said if one of Hagg or Morin can become a 1-2# and Ghost a 4# PP specialist the D would look solid to very good in ~4 years. Alt being a 5# would be nice as well.

I think if they are patient and make sensible trades they probably get a 3-4 year window where the team can realistically compete with not too much turnover... ofc that is dependant on many factors, but some of the groundwork is there, some groundwork 'pieces' that are hard to come by in guys like G and Couts. (if he keeps developing offensively even better, but even if he is a 45 point shut down centre that is valuable as heck for a team who want to compete.).

Look at the teams who have won since the lockout... most of them the 'big guns' or core players were drafted or got earlier on in their career in trades. Then try and fill in the 'gaps' when you are already competing with what is there. Can't buy a cup anymore. You have to scout well, draft well and hope the guys develop as well as possible...

Appleyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:43 PM
  #80
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I am usually someone (like all of us I imagine) who wants to see this team compete every year as we have come to expect.

But at this moment with the team composition I agree that patience is what is really needed most.

Unless someone heavily overpays or is desperate, or a great deal can be plundered from someone just stay pat.

There is no magic wand that is going to get them to compete for a cup this year or next... they are a borderline playoff team really. (6-10 in the east... depending on how they play.)

Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, Simmonds, Read, Schenn, Laughton and Downie all have a ~6 year window where non should really decline and some should get better. The forward group has the ability and potential to be very good. (individually all apart from Couturier and Schenn have shown that already as well.)

That being said if a package around 2 not named Read, G or Couts could be had for a true 1W I would pull the trigger... I would be hesitant on V and Schenn though, they could come back to bite, Simmer and Downie are the 'safe' tradebaits really... but they have the least value ofc!

The D is trickier really, Coburn, Schenn, Grossmann and Gus could be around for the next ~6 years at a similar level... but that is a #3 and 3 #4/5s most likely, not good enough to compete... that being said if one of Hagg or Morin can become a 1-2# and Ghost a 4# PP specialist the D would look solid to very good in ~4 years. Alt being a 5# would be nice as well.

I think if they are patient and make sensible trades they probably get a 3-4 year window where the team can realistically compete with not too much turnover... ofc that is dependant on many factors, but some of the groundwork is there, some groundwork 'pieces' that are hard to come by in guys like G and Couts. (if he keeps developing offensively even better, but even if he is a 45 point shut down centre that is valuable as heck for a team who want to compete.).
There's also goaltending. Hopefully Mason becomes that guy for us and can pave the way for Stolie would should also be ready to be a legit goalie in that same time frame (assuming he continues to develop the way we all hope).

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:43 PM
  #81
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,172
vCash: 500
Yeah, like others have said since my last post we just need a lot of patience. Our best players and most valuable ones are young and either still developing or at least shouldn't have a noticeable decline for a long while. Our biggest weakness short of Mason relapsing back to his Columbus days is our top six and you don't fix an entire top six just like that when you don't have much to trade with that's valuable.

The difference between our forwards and D is that even if they both need fixing, our prospect pool has quality talent at D while our forward group really does not.

It's sad it got to this point but still that's the best course for now.

Garbage Goal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:46 PM
  #82
3Fs
Registered User
 
3Fs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Western Pa.
Country: United States
Posts: 492
vCash: 500
If we lose to Caps again tonight, I would expect us to finally pull the trade to bring Cane here from Jets to work with CG and Shake things up a bit...just saying is all.

3Fs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:49 PM
  #83
Legion of Goon
.....Flyer Alarm
 
Legion of Goon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lake Titicaca
Country: Germany
Posts: 1,133
vCash: 159
.
.
.
Snider will promote Holmgren to President and Hextall will become the new GM

Legion of Goon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:57 PM
  #84
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,877
vCash: 500
One major reason I see Snider always being interviewed and talking about the Flyers is because he is the majority owner(almost in entirety if I am remember correctly). He doesn't need to answer to a board about what he said or get into conflicts with other owners with where he feels the team needs to go. You have other majority owners in other sports who completely own the team who always are interviewed as well, Robert Kraft is another one who comes to mind( I am sure there are more). He will speak his mind about the state of the team when he feels like it. Jerry Jones and Al Davis are a different breed, Snider is nowhere near their level. The egos on those two man would force everyone out of the room. They destroy teams because of their arrogance and complete idiocy by becoming the GM's of teams they own. Snider would never do that, he hires guys he trusts, and every owner has a say in what goes on with their team. Am I saying Snider hasn't effected this team in the past, no, but what I am saying is some people seem to over exaggerate what they think he decides with player personnel. I guess what I am trying to say is Snider has done much more good for this team/city than he ever has done bad.

Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 04:57 PM
  #85
Vikke
FHM 13 researcher
 
Vikke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bustoville
Country: Sweden
Posts: 12,942
vCash: 500
Offense is a problem much because of the lack of puckmoving, fast-skating D-men. It's not exactly hard to spot that. Sure, they're doing a good job of playing D without the puck. With the puck? Pretty damn terrible most of the games.

Vikke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:03 PM
  #86
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikke View Post
Offense is a problem much because of the lack of puckmoving, fast-skating D-men. It's not exactly hard to spot that. Sure, they're doing a good job of playing D without the puck. With the puck? Pretty damn terrible most of the games.
It's kind of an all around offensive failure which is just as much on the forwards. Hartnell and Simmonds play pretty damn similar games that are limited in effectiveness to around the opposing net. That's half our top six wingers and our top six winger depth is shallow overall when in combination with the prospect pool. There's also an extreme lack of two-way presence in our top six which affects the D as much defensively as much as the D affects the forwards offensively.

Garbage Goal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:04 PM
  #87
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,705
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikke View Post
Offense is a problem much because of the lack of puckmoving, fast-skating D-men. It's not exactly hard to spot that. Sure, they're doing a good job of playing D without the puck. With the puck? Pretty damn terrible most of the games.
Sure it hurts, but a LOT of it is on the forwards.

Just look at Streit (or Timonen). There's a guy who often makes the right plays, often good plays, in the offensive zone. Problem is, the people he's giving the puck to usually don't do **** with it. It's not the fault of the D that so many forwards want to turn down prime shooting opportunities to force an ill advised pass, for instance.

They upgraded the offense's puck moving over last year, and the difference has been largely marginal. The biggest, most noticeable difference has come from getting Downie and turning the 3rd line into something that can produce.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:05 PM
  #88
Bernie Parent 1974
Registered User
 
Bernie Parent 1974's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 3,192
vCash: 500
fresh perspective

Bernie Parent 1974 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:08 PM
  #89
Appleyard
Registered User
 
Appleyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manc/Shef/Utrecht
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 5,628
vCash: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikke View Post
Offense is a problem much because of the lack of puckmoving, fast-skating D-men. It's not exactly hard to spot that. Sure, they're doing a good job of playing D without the puck. With the puck? Pretty damn terrible most of the games.
I feel this is definitely part of it... these forwards for the most part have been consistent 40+ point guys (our entire top 8 and then Couts who seems to be, and even if not is so valuable for other contributions.) on multiple teams... they have not just all gone crap at the same time. (Though pretty sure Hartnell has!)

A 1LW is really the only big hole in the top 9 going forward. Even if Voracek is only a 50 point winger that is fine for a 1st liner in the NHL if you have a PPG centre (G, proven) and a goalscoring ~70 point LW.

Berube has masked this problem by asking more of the forwards in the current system... and it has helped the D massively as they have less responsibility for puck moving now and less hard passes or rushes to make, it is also sensible with the personnel on the back end to help the team win as often as they can consistently, especially as we go each year more to dead puck hockey!

Though Schenn, Hartnell and Simmer do not help at times due to lack of puck possession... Schenn is the only one who really shows he has the ability to... Simmer is good on the boards but not a possession guy.

Appleyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:23 PM
  #90
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I feel this is definitely part of it... these forwards for the most part have been consistent 40+ point guys (our entire top 8 and then Couts who seems to be, and even if not is so valuable for other contributions.) on multiple teams... they have not just all gone crap at the same time. (Though pretty sure Hartnell has!)

A 1LW is really the only big hole in the top 9 going forward. Even if Voracek is only a 50 point winger that is fine for a 1st liner in the NHL if you have a PPG centre (G, proven) and a goalscoring ~70 point LW.

Berube has masked this problem by asking more of the forwards in the current system... and it has helped the D massively as they have less responsibility for puck moving now and less hard passes or rushes to make, it is also sensible with the personnel on the back end to help the team win as often as they can consistently, especially as we go each year more to dead puck hockey!

Though Schenn, Hartnell and Simmer do not help at times due to lack of puck possession... Schenn is the only one who really shows he has the ability to... Simmer is good on the boards but not a possession guy.
Missing a 70 P top line winger or something along those lines is a pretty major thing to be missing. Especially when we don't have a number one D anchor (with Timonen also likely done after this season).

Having quality secondary scoring is great and needed really, but if that's all you have you end up looking like the Devils really unless your roster is quality all around and great defensively (a la Boston). I know we have Giroux, but it's not enough quite frankly. There's nobody in our forward group that scares me all that much really aside from Giroux as far as offense goes or even two-way play goes.

Washington - Backstrom, Ovechkin, Green
Pittsburgh - Malkin, Crosby, Neal
Vancouver - Sedin, Sedin, Kesler
Dallas - Seguin, Benn, Nich (will take me a while to spell that name)
Anaheim - Getzlaf, Perry
Chicago - Toews, Kane, Hossa
LA - Kopitar, Richards, Carter
Colorado - Duchene, Landeskog, O'Reilly, Mackinnon
Detroit - Datsyuk, Zetterberg

I could go on, but you see what I mean to get across. Then there's teams like Boston or St. Louis that have quality scoring all around from both the back-end and the forward core but excel in two-way play so even if they don't scare you offensively they can score as well as shut you down.

Our group doesn't really have an identity. Our top six is a lot of secondary scoring aside from Giroux and outside of the Couturier line (when it was working well at least) we sure as hell don't scarey anyone defensively with our forward. Our D mostly leans to defensive play and being big and "tough" but none of them are scoring threats and none of them even stand out as excellent shutdown guys really.

Just no identity anywhere or even cohesiveness between the D and forwards.

Garbage Goal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:25 PM
  #91
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,172
vCash: 500
I mean when you look at a team like Boston or even the Rangers you think "they're hard to score against and still have enough talent to score at the same time, gotta capitalize on your chances and not give them too much" or a team like Pittsburgh or Washington you think "if you give them too much or their best players are truly on their game they can blow us out of the water with goals".

With us...what is it?

"There's Giroux to watch out for and...um...Mason is playing well this season". I guess.

Even with a team like Buffalo or Calgary you expect them to suck, but they're also in admitted rebuilds and have an identity of young talent and being possibly great in the future. With this team we don't even come off like that. We just come off more as a team that's trying to compete every season and failing.

Garbage Goal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:30 PM
  #92
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,705
vCash: 156
Without looking at stats, I would wager the Coburn-Grossmann pairing is an offensive anchor. They're defensively the top pair, but I would wager they're least likely to see goals go in than any other pairing. After that there isn't any regular pairing that could be considered offensively explosive.

I rate the D group as "adequate." They're not horrible, but I wouldn't trust them to survive a 7 game series. Solid overall in their own end and nothing special offensively. I view them as a stopgap to hold the fort until some of the youth the org has invested in makes it to the next level, if they do.

Edit: But overall, I don't think they deserve a lot of blame for the offense being 26th in the league. As I recall from last year and the first month I watched of them this year, Edmonton's D is even less involved than Philly's...there were often times where you wondered if the forwards knew they were there, like your average EASHL drop in game. Yet offensively they're 10 spots ahead.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 12-17-2013 at 05:36 PM.
Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:31 PM
  #93
bauerhockey02
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 227
vCash: 500
This is why I say the offense is what I would look at fixing. I really think using Boston as a model is the way to go. We need more two-way forwards and an elite winger for giroux. Then by letting the dmen in our system develop and continuing to build through the draft this team could be made to be a strong competitor. These knee jerk reactions need to stop. It is time to be patient, create an identity for this team, and let the roster grow into a true contender.

bauerhockey02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:31 PM
  #94
CharlieGirl
Get well soon Kimmo
 
CharlieGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,861
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We have Hagg and Ghost in the system. Why do we need to pay for more young, mobile puck moving defensemen?

This team is not in "win now" mode. We don't need to make any moves to make the team immediately better, because those moves won't make the team good enough to compete. Two crucial components of our core, Couturier and Schenn, still have developing to do. There is time to see if the drafted talent will come into its own. You know...to build from within, that thing successful teams do.

You cannot build a contender by chasing trades to fill holes. You have to build through the draft. The organization is now trying to do that. They need to stick with that course instead of going back to trading all their young picks, prospects, and players. Have you already forgotten that they tried that for several years and had to blow the team up, without even winning anything to show for it? Why do you want to go back to that? It's proven to be a failing strategy, and it's one the team is currently trying to recover from.
I agree wholeheartedly, but there's a guy sitting in the owners' box that believes the current culture is fine, and will do anything he needs to do to win NOW.

CharlieGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:36 PM
  #95
Appleyard
Registered User
 
Appleyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manc/Shef/Utrecht
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 5,628
vCash: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Missing a 70 P top line winger or something along those lines is a pretty major thing to be missing. Especially when we don't have a number one D anchor (with Timonen also likely done after this season).

Having quality secondary scoring is great and needed really, but if that's all you have you end up looking like the Devils really unless your roster is quality all around and great defensively (a la Boston). I know we have Giroux, but it's not enough quite frankly. There's nobody in our forward group that scares me all that much really aside from Giroux as far as offense goes or even two-way play goes.

Washington - Backstrom, Ovechkin, Green
Pittsburgh - Malkin, Crosby, Neal
Vancouver - Sedin, Sedin, Kesler
Dallas - Seguin, Benn, Nich (will take me a while to spell that name)
Anaheim - Getzlaf, Perry
Chicago - Toews, Kane, Hossa
LA - Kopitar, Richards, Carter
Colorado - Duchene, Landeskog, O'Reilly, Mackinnon
Detroit - Datsyuk, Zetterberg

I could go on, but you see what I mean to get across. Then there's teams like Boston or St. Louis that have quality scoring all around from both the back-end and the forward core but excel in two-way play so even if they don't scare you offensively they can score as well as shut you down.

Our group doesn't really have an identity. Our top six is a lot of secondary scoring aside from Giroux and outside of the Couturier line (when it was working well at least) we sure as hell don't scarey anyone defensively with our forward. Our D mostly leans to defensive play and being big and "tough" but none of them are scoring threats and none of them even stand out as excellent shutdown guys really.

Just no identity anywhere or even cohesiveness between the D and forwards.
Yep, they are hard to get (unless Schenn can become one... I feel he can certainly be a 60point guy... but doubt more tbh.) Which is why in the other thread I said patience was the key unless you could package for a 1LW or future one with some of the forwards not named G or Couts. Which would be ideal really.

Especially with Laughton, Leier, Cousins, Noebels, Akeson, McGinn etc coming through who hopefully can provide 3~ secondary forwards for the top 9... as non really have a good chance of being 1st liners frankly but some should end up as good 3rd liners or 2nd liners.

I just feel the D has more question marks going forward than the offence really, there is more potential in Morin, Hagg and Ghost, but what they have on offence is more of a bird in hand, even of that bird is a kestrel not an eagle, especially as non of them are very old and can be around for a while, if they can pick the right secondary guys to keep and move the forward group can be a decent group in the NHL for a while. Whereas the D is one injury away from disaster that can not easily be rectified for the longterm (it can be though, UFA, RFA, clever trade)... I am terrified of Kimmo going.

Appleyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 05:52 PM
  #96
Appleyard
Registered User
 
Appleyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manc/Shef/Utrecht
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 5,628
vCash: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Without looking at stats, I would wager the Coburn-Grossmann pairing is an offensive anchor. They're defensively the top pair, but I would wager they're least likely to see goals go in than any other pairing. After that there isn't any regular pairing that could be considered offensively explosive.

I rate the D group as "adequate." They're not horrible, but I wouldn't trust them to survive a 7 game series. Solid overall in their own end and nothing special offensively. I view them as a stopgap to hold the fort until some of the youth the org has invested in makes it to the next level, if they do.

Edit: But overall, I don't think they deserve a lot of blame for the offense being 26th in the league. As I recall from last year and the first month I watched of them this year, Edmonton's D is even less involved than Philly's...there were often times where you wondered if the forwards knew they were there, like your average EASHL drop in game. Yet offensively they're 10 spots ahead.
Whoever plays with Kimmo is seemingly the pair who let in the least goals against!

Coburn, Kimmo and Gus have been by far the best D in terms of Corsi and GAOn... no one else is really close across both categories.

Grossmanns stats are not that impressive... but his QoC explains that.

Schenn-Gus at a brief glance is seemingly the pair that creates the most offence in terms of goals while they are on surprisingly, though they now get the easier minutes compared to what Gus was getting early on, which also helps to explain it... though Gus's solid, quiet own zone play and good neutral zone movement helps.

Apart from Mez and Gill the advanced stats show they have all played ok outside of Gus, Kimmo and Coburn who have played very well. I think the eye test would back that as well... though Grossmann has played well his toughness of minutes impact on his advanced stats, hardest on the team really, but his zone starts IMO show his value this year... +6 from start to finish. Gus is the only other positive.

Appleyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 07:29 PM
  #97
FlyingPhilly
Registered User
 
FlyingPhilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Philly
Country: United States
Posts: 1,243
vCash: 500
Trading Richards and Carter for youth and then getting a 31 year old goalie never made sense to me. One moved screamed rebuild and moving in another direction while the other shouted win now, win now. There better not be any changes to the team until a new GM is in place, preferably someone like Chiarelli.

FlyingPhilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 07:33 PM
  #98
jabba2
Just say no to Clowe
 
jabba2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 480
vCash: 500
That Snider wants changes is no surprise though. The roster is always undergoing some dramatic changes.

jabba2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 10:35 PM
  #99
DecadesofFutility
Registered User
 
DecadesofFutility's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wilmington, Delaware
Country: United States
Posts: 439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We have Hagg and Ghost in the system. Why do we need to pay for more young, mobile puck moving defensemen?

This team is not in "win now" mode. We don't need to make any moves to make the team immediately better, because those moves won't make the team good enough to compete. Two crucial components of our core, Couturier and Schenn, still have developing to do. There is time to see if the drafted talent will come into its own. You know...to build from within, that thing successful teams do.

You cannot build a contender by chasing trades to fill holes. You have to build through the draft. The organization is now trying to do that. They need to stick with that course instead of going back to trading all their young picks, prospects, and players. Have you already forgotten that they tried that for several years and had to blow the team up, without even winning anything to show for it? Why do you want to go back to that? It's proven to be a failing strategy, and it's one the team is currently trying to recover from.
We need better options than Hagg or Ghost.
To wait 4 years+ hoping they become top 4 offensive defenseman is folly, IMHO.
I wish I had some faith that these prospects will amount to something better than Gus is today.

I would be willing to wait 4 more years if I thought our forwards were likely to improve their output dramatically.
But, I feel they have reached their ceiling now, its time to cut our loses and focus on building a young mobile defense, first.

Seeing that the Flyers are in fact an average team of mismatched parts, the best plan is to rebuild it correctly this time.
The defense must be fixed first, then the Flyers can focus on their strengths in drafting new forwards.
Holmgren is not the GM for this task, he has failed miserably in his attempt.

We are not contending as you stated, this I agree on.
So what is lost by trading some forwards for an young established PMD or #1 defensman?
Some overrated and overpaid offensive talent that dominates the roster.
If the Flyers can acquire the right player they should be willing to add a pick and/or prospect to the deal.
You got take some risks and maybe overpay to build a top defense in today's NHL.
I did not mean to imply the Flyers should trade all their picks and prospects away.
I would just prefer to focus on fixing the old slow defense first, no matter the cost.

DecadesofFutility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2013, 10:42 PM
  #100
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,705
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
We need better options than Hagg or Ghost.
To wait 4 years+ hoping they become top 4 offensive defenseman is folly, IMHO.
I wish I had some faith that these prospects will amount to something better than Gus is today.

I would be willing to wait 4 more years if I thought our forwards were likely to improve their output dramatically.
But, I feel they have reached their ceiling now, its time to cut our loses and focus on building a young mobile defense, first.

Seeing that the Flyers are in fact an average team of mismatched parts, the best plan is to rebuild it correctly this time.
The defense must be fixed first, then the Flyers can focus on their strengths in drafting new forwards.
Holmgren is not the GM for this task, he has failed miserably in his attempt.

We are not contending as you stated, this I agree on.
So what is lost by trading some forwards for an young established PMD or #1 defensman?
Some overrated and overpaid offensive talent that dominates the roster.
If the Flyers can acquire the right player they should be willing to add a pick and/or prospect to the deal.
You got take some risks and maybe overpay to build a top defense in today's NHL.
I did not mean to imply the Flyers should trade all their picks and prospects away.
I would just prefer to focus on fixing the old slow defense first, no matter the cost.
You say the best plan is to rebuild correctly at this time....yet you're a proponent of building incorrectly and trying for the instant fix.

So which is it? Are we trying to build correctly from within and through the draft? Are we supposed to grow and develop a core over the course of a few seasons and build a competitive team around them?

Or are we trying to blow a new hole in the team to instantly fix a different hole? Because we aren't getting an established #1 without paying a lot for it.

Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:05 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.