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Brayden Schenn (no supplementary discipline to Wilson); Lecavalier update (12/19)

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Old
12-18-2013, 09:39 AM
  #51
BringBackStevens
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So now we are suspending guys for hitting players in a "vulnerable area" of the ice? He hit him clean in the shoulder while Schenn was turning away.
Um, yeah? Since always? It's been frowned upon since pretty much forever in hockey to hit someone in a vulnerable position.

You can't hit someone with that degree of violence that is standing 4-5 feet away from the boards like that. This hit was ALSO boarding. You do NOT have to be facing the boards for a hit to be boarding. A player that distance from the boards has no ability to protect themselves.

Boarding has been a no-no since forever.

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But is charging now suspension worthy?
It can be... is this a serious question?

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Again I ask, what types of hits are we trying to eliminate? More than just headshots and blindside hits?
Um, yes? Why should a type of hit that has a high degree of likelihood of injuring someone NOT be something that should be eliminated?

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What if Schenn got right up?
Injury has to factor in. What if Orpik got right up?

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What if Schenn hit Wilson instead of Wilson hitting Schenn?
What is your point here?

You are showing a real lack of understanding of the sport here.

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12-18-2013, 09:40 AM
  #52
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Not for the first time.

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Old
12-18-2013, 09:47 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
No point in arguing about this. Some people will see it as suspendable, and some won't. I don't think it warrants a suspension, but it appears that opinion is not a popular one to have.
Well because your opinion runs contrary to the way things have always been in the NHL. Charges and Boarding penalties have always been two of the worst infractions according the league. Often because they can result in the worst outcomes.


Last edited by flyershockey: 12-18-2013 at 10:10 AM.
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Old
12-18-2013, 09:47 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
No point in arguing about this. Some people will see it as suspendable, and some won't. I don't think it warrants a suspension, but it appears that opinion is not a popular one to have.
The only people I've seen that said it isn't suspension worthy (nationally) are Players/Coaches/Execs on the Capitals.

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12-18-2013, 09:56 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
No point in arguing about this. Some people will see it as suspendable, and some won't. I don't think it warrants a suspension, but it appears that opinion is not a popular one to have.
That opinion isn't a logical one to have if you've been following hockey the last four or five years. They've been trying hard to eliminate concussions and part of that includes placing responsibility on the hitter for destroying someone on a vulnerable spot instead of blaming the guy who got hit.

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Old
12-18-2013, 10:55 AM
  #56
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He was trying to do a Rinaldo-esque game changing mo hit but Rinaldo actually ****ing thinks about his hits (maybe not his other penalties...at all) but still. That hit could have ended Schenns career if mere inches were changed. Wilson was reckless and deserves a 5 game suspension and a hefty fine. You can't do that.

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Old
12-18-2013, 10:56 AM
  #57
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This kind of hit got Downie 25 games.

It'll be interesting to see if Wilson gets any (I suspect 3-5).

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Old
12-18-2013, 11:06 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Um, yeah? Since always? It's been frowned upon since pretty much forever in hockey to hit someone in a vulnerable position.
The guy said vulnerable area of the ice, not a vulnerable position. Those are two different things. Schenn was not in a vulnerable position, he was skating with the puck away from the boards. I am assuming that the "vulnerable area" the poster was referring to was the corner of the rink, which I don't think is some sort of safety zone where you can only hit guys sometimes when it doesn't look scary.

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You can't hit someone with that degree of violence that is standing 4-5 feet away from the boards like that. This hit was ALSO boarding. You do NOT have to be facing the boards for a hit to be boarding. A player that distance from the boards has no ability to protect themselves.

Boarding has been a no-no since forever.
Pretty sure the rules on boarding take into account things like the distance from the boards and whether or not the player put him self in a position to hit the boards. If Schenn didn't turn the way he did, he likely would not have hit the boards. He still would have been creamed, but likely without any contact with the boards.

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It can be... is this a serious question?
Fair enough. I suppose I worded this poorly. Obviously charging can be suspendable, as can elbowing, or any other number of penalties. I guess what I was getting at was that that I didn't think this hit was anything more than a charging penalty.

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Um, yes? Why should a type of hit that has a high degree of likelihood of injuring someone NOT be something that should be eliminated?
So where do you draw the line? Guys can get injured any number of ways in hockey. I understand the desire to keep players safe, but what is the outcome for which you are looking? No hitting in the corners or near the boards? Only light checking?

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Injury has to factor in. What if Orpik got right up?
I understand the argument, I just don't like it. To me, a hit (or other action) is suspendable because of the action, not the result.

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What is your point here?

You are showing a real lack of understanding of the sport here.
My point was that I think a lot of people may have different opinions if Schenn was the guy who hit Wilson.

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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Well because your opinion runs contrary to the way things have always been in the NHL. Charges and Boarding penalties have always been two of the worst infractions according the league. Often because they can result in the worst outcomes.
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
The only people I've seen that said it isn't suspension worthy (nationally) are Players/Coaches/Execs on the Capitals.
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
That opinion isn't a logical one to have if you've been following hockey the last four or five years. They've been trying hard to eliminate concussions and part of that includes placing responsibility on the hitter for destroying someone on a vulnerable spot instead of blaming the guy who got hit.
I understand what you and Hiesenberg are saying, but again I just don't like it. I think you guys are right that he WILL be suspended, I just don't think he SHOULD be suspended.

So maybe I will change my position to it is suspendable but it shouldn't be suspendable, rather than saying it is NOT suspendable.

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Old
12-18-2013, 11:31 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So now we are suspending guys for hitting players in a "vulnerable area" of the ice? He hit him clean in the shoulder while Schenn was turning away.

Schenn saw him coming, braced, and got hit in the shoulder. It was definitely a charging penalty, as most have said. But is charging now suspension worthy?
I agree, not very strongly, but I don't think it's suspension-worthy.

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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I would say any overtly violent hit where making a hockey play is completely disregarded.
a hit is/can be a "hockey play"

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12-18-2013, 11:34 AM
  #60
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Nobody should be arguing with this guy. Always has an opinion like this and always ends up in "debates" running pages long where he doesn't give in any.

Anyhow, that charge is the definition of a suspendable charge and also the personification of player disrespect towards each other. Schenn's turn had almost nothing to do with it, Schenn was playing the puck, and Wilson only had destroying Schenn as badly as he could on his mind. Aside from that being a very ogrish mindset he's a hockey player and part of being a respectable hockey player is recognizing what situation you're in. It was pretty obvious that he was trying to put way too much force into that hit and also obvious that Schenn was completely vulnerable there a few feet away from the boards.

Wilson being "big" or "strong" also doesn't help his case at all. It's not like he just grew two feet and added twenty pounds to himself overnight. He's been big and strong for a long while and he definitely knows what he's capable of doing and how much he should be letting up in situations like these. If anything, him being such a big guy either means he's using that strength in a very bad way or completely oblivious to the fact that he can't just use all of his force whenever he wants.

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Old
12-18-2013, 11:35 AM
  #61
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
a hit is/can be a "hockey play"
Except that wasn't just a hit. It was a reckless charging and boarding.

There was many smarter plays he could have made there. None of which would have landed his team on the PK for so long.

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12-18-2013, 11:37 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I understand the argument, I just don't like it. To me, a hit (or other action) is suspendable because of the action, not the result.
Outside of hockey, people are punished for the result over the action, so why do you think it should be different in hockey? Intent is difficult to prove, so you have to take the result into consideration.

If you hit a cyclist with your car and he walks away with minor injuries, your punishment will be less severe than if you leave him paralyzed or dead. On the ice, Shawn Thornton probably doesn't even get suspended if Orpik doesn't get knocked out and concussed.

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12-18-2013, 11:39 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Nobody should be arguing with this guy. Always has an opinion like this and always ends up in "debates" running pages long where he doesn't give in any.

Anyhow, that charge is the definition of a suspendable charge and also the personification of player disrespect towards each other. Schenn's turn had almost nothing to do with it, Schenn was playing the puck, and Wilson only had destroying Schenn as badly as he could on his mind. Aside from that being a very ogrish mindset he's a hockey player and part of being a respectable hockey player is recognizing what situation you're in. It was pretty obvious that he was trying to put way too much force into that hit and also obvious that Schenn was completely vulnerable there a few feet away from the boards.

Wilson being "big" or "strong" also doesn't help his case at all. It's not like he just grew two feet and added twenty pounds to himself overnight. He's been big and strong for a long while and he definitely knows what he's capable of doing and how much he should be letting up in situations like these. If anything, him being such a big guy either means he's using that strength in a very bad way or completely oblivious to the fact that he can't just use all of his force whenever he wants.
I actually frequently admit that I am wrong during arguments on here, I just don't do it immediately because someone else disagrees with me. If I am proven wrong, I acknowledge it and move on. Also, it takes two to tango. If I am debating for pages and pages without "giving any," it is likely the product of someone else not "giving any."

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12-18-2013, 11:43 AM
  #64
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I think he should, it was a reckless play. He needs to be punished 1 or 2 games is fine by me.

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12-18-2013, 11:47 AM
  #65
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Schenn said he doesn't have a concussion, said he felt fine since yesterday. Hopefully it stays that way.

Also said Wilson texted him this morning and apologized.

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12-18-2013, 11:47 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Outside of hockey, people are punished for the result over the action, so why do you think it should be different in hockey? Intent is difficult to prove, so you have to take the result into consideration.
Because hockey is not "outside" of hockey. And intent certainly comes into play in "punishment" outside of hockey.

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If you hit a cyclist with your car and he walks away with minor injuries, your punishment will be less severe than if you leave him paralyzed or dead. On the ice, Shawn Thornton probably doesn't even get suspended if Orpik doesn't get knocked out and concussed.
Again, this is outside of hockey. If you hit someone with your car and he suffers serious injuries, your "punishment" is paying for those injuries in dollar amounts to the injured person. Unless you are talking about criminal penalties where your intent surely would come into play (i.e., did you intend to hit the cyclist?).

But again, I know this is how it is, I just don't like it. If it were me, I'd suspend for the act, not the result. Otherwise you will run into situations where a seemingly less egregious hit will result in a bigger suspension or fine based on an injury, where a more egregious hit may get off lighter because no injury was sustained. That is not how I think it should be. If you drill a guy in the head who isn't looking but he gets up, we'll give you three games. If you are the culprit in a more borderline hit, but the guy gets hurt, you get five games. I don't like it.

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12-18-2013, 11:47 AM
  #67
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Brayden Schenn says he does not have a concussion. Got a text from Wilson this morning.
Source: Dave Isaac @davegisaac

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12-18-2013, 11:56 AM
  #68
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If Schenn comes away from this without any injuries I'll be convinced he's replaced his bones with foam and rubber. That impact was ugly as hell.

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12-18-2013, 11:58 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Because hockey is not "outside" of hockey. And intent certainly comes into play in "punishment" outside of hockey.
The rules in hockey are based on general societal rules; it's not like hockey is played in a vacuum, completely separated from the "real world".

I didn't say intent doesn't come into play outside of hockey. Intent is difficlut to prove; if you can prove it, it adds to the punishment. I don't think Wilson intended to hurt Schenn, but the result warranted the penalty during the game and probably a suspension.

You don't punish individuals for intent-only outside of hockey, nor should you in hockey. Whether a player is injured or not should come into play.

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Again, this is outside of hockey. If you hit someone with your car and he suffers serious injuries, your "punishment" is paying for those injuries in dollar amounts to the injured person. Unless you are talking about criminal penalties where your intent surely would come into play (i.e., did you intend to hit the cyclist?).
Intention and the result are both considerations. My sister-in-law was hit by a car when she was a kid. There was no "intent" on the part of the driver (the driver was careless), but the fact that she was seriously injured played a significant role in the punishment of the driver.

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But again, I know this is how it is, I just don't like it. If it were me, I'd suspend for the act, not the result. Otherwise you will run into situations where a seemingly less egregious hit will result in a bigger suspension or fine based on an injury, where a more egregious hit may get off lighter because no injury was sustained. That is not how I think it should be. If you drill a guy in the head who isn't looking but he gets up, we'll give you three games. If you are the culprit in a more borderline hit, but the guy gets hurt, you get five games. I don't like it.
Then how many games should Kessel have received for swinging his stick at John Scott? He was using his stick as a weapon, he just didn't happen to cause injury. Based on your arguments of intent over result, Kessel should have sat for a while. Kessel caused no harm, so I don't think he deserved a suspension. Whereas Wilson probably didn't want to hurt Schenn, but Schenn was forced to leave the game, clearly sustaining an injury.

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12-18-2013, 12:03 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Schenn said he doesn't have a concussion, said he felt fine since yesterday. Hopefully it stays that way.

Also said Wilson texted him this morning and apologized.
Why would he apologize for a clean hit?

Oates and McPhee should be ashamed of themselves.

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12-18-2013, 12:04 PM
  #71
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He will get two games maybe one

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12-18-2013, 12:06 PM
  #72
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Nothing has been announced so far in regards to a hearing.

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12-18-2013, 12:06 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If Schenn comes away from this without any injuries I'll be convinced he's replaced his bones with foam and rubber. That impact was ugly as hell.
Maybe he has an adamantium skeleton.

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12-18-2013, 12:07 PM
  #74
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Wow, it's amazing if Schenn is feeling OK right now

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12-18-2013, 12:09 PM
  #75
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i'm glad that it seems he's alright

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