HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Brayden Schenn (no supplementary discipline to Wilson); Lecavalier update (12/19)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-18-2013, 01:46 PM
  #101
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 4,923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Who says they aren't?
I think the Flyers and Schenn have confirmed they didn't do a baseline test on him.

Hiesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 01:55 PM
  #102
flyershockey
Registered User
 
flyershockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
"We have given Brayden sudafed and cough drops to treat the virus. We will soak him in a bathtub of ice, our traditional method, and after he drinks his nutrient slushee he will be healed."

--Flyers training staff

"I have force fed Brayden a fistful of hemp, he's probably stronger than ever now because of sciencey hemp stuff."

--Riley Cote

"I can't remember what the color orange looks like."

--Brayden Schenn
If he really doesn't have a concussion, it just proves what I've suspected all along... the Schenn brothers are rock heads.

Nobody with an actual brain walks away from that impact unscathed.

flyershockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 02:09 PM
  #103
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,734
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
I noticed a small error on my part. Obviously you can be punished for intent-only. In the example of, say, attempted murder. However, the punishment is more severe if you succeed in your attempt, which is what I was driving at.
To begin with, attempting a crime is a completely different crime than the crime itself. You are not simply punished because you didn't execute the crime properly or you didn't finish it or because the result of the fully completed crime would have been worse or whatever. It is a completely different offense. In New Jersey, for example, you will be guilty of attempting a crime if you take a substantial step in furtherance of a crime (any crime, not just murder).

In the civil context, if you are being sued for some sort of intentional tort, like a battery or assault, you will only be held liable if you intended to commit such a tort. It is an element of the tort itself. Again, this brings up the discussion of what exactly intent means, but in order to be liable in those situation, intent has to exist.

Putting aside the legal issues for a second and even if I were to concede that ok, you are right, results are what are punished, I don't think it should be that way in hockey. An illegal hit is an illegal hit. If a guy gets hurt and it is illegal let's say he gets five games. Same hit, no injury, still five games.

Quote:
Re: your edit. How is appealing unlike the real world? In many cases if the judge hands down a sentence, you can appeal. Hockey isn't exactly like the real world, but the Department of Player Safety is structured similarly to a real world process.
Eh, I guess it is structured similarly in that there is an appeals process, but in the "real world" as opposed to the "hockey world," they are not the same thing. There is nothing to prove in the NHL, it is whatever Shanny says. No trial. No jury. There is no burden of proof on either side. Like every other aspect that I have pointed out. There's no jury of Tom Wilson's peers that will determine the outcome of this hit.

Quote:
I'm not talking about any money my sister-in-law received. I'm talking about the suspended license that the driver received as a result of the seriousness of the incident. If my sister-in-law walks away unscathed, the driver probably doesn't lose his license for a period of time.
I see what you are saying here, and to a certain extent you are right. Criminal violations might take this sort of thing in to consideration so I could see your point that the NHL should as well. But the idea behind the criminal process is that you are punishing the act, not the result. The result might come in to play sometimes, like in the case of your sister, but other times it doesn't.

But again, I don't think we should punish for results in the NHL, it should be actions.

Quote:
I suspect that if you watch Shanahan's explanation post-result, he will note the severity of Schenn's injury as a determining factor in the length of suspension/fine amount, yes.
Absolutely he will, but again I am not arguing that it DOESN'T happen, I am arguing that it SHOULDN'T happen.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 02:29 PM
  #104
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 16,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Eh, I guess it is structured similarly in that there is an appeals process, but in the "real world" as opposed to the "hockey world," they are not the same thing. There is nothing to prove in the NHL, it is whatever Shanny says. No trial. No jury. There is no burden of proof on either side. Like every other aspect that I have pointed out. There's no jury of Tom Wilson's peers that will determine the outcome of this hit.
People don't go in front of a jury of their peers in all cases. Many times a judge will be the only person delivering a verdict.

There is no "burden of proof" because there are cameras everywhere. If the games were not televised and not played in front of several thousand viewers in-person, Shanahan's job would be significantly different. During the meetings, Shanahan also allows the player to discuss his actions (though that may not have any bearing on the ultimate decision).

__________________
I deride your truth handling abilities
CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 02:44 PM
  #105
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,734
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
People don't go in front of a jury of their peers in all cases. Many times a judge will be the only person delivering a verdict.
Yes that is accurate, but you have a right to a trial by jury if you are facing jail time, the NHL equivalent would be suspension.

Quote:
There is no "burden of proof" because there are cameras everywhere. If the games were not televised and not played in front of several thousand viewers in-person, Shanahan's job would be significantly different. During the meetings, Shanahan also allows the player to discuss his actions (though that may not have any bearing on the ultimate decision).
What do cameras being everywhere have to do with the burden of proof? The burden proof is referring to what the state (Shanahan) would have to show in order to get a guilty verdict (suspension). In the NHL scenario, there is nothing to prove. It is whatever Shanahan thinks it is. If he thinks it is illegal, it is illegal for whatever reasons Shanahan says it is.

Are we really having a discussion about the difference between the legal system and the NHL? The bottom line is, I think that the NHL should not give out harsher punishments for hits that result in injury or lighter punishments for hits that do not. An illegal hit is an illegal hit. If a hit that injures Player A gets Player B five games, why should a comparable hit that doesn't injure Player C get Player D only one game?

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:00 PM
  #106
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 16,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
What do cameras being everywhere have to do with the burden of proof? The burden proof is referring to what the state (Shanahan) would have to show in order to get a guilty verdict (suspension). In the NHL scenario, there is nothing to prove. It is whatever Shanahan thinks it is. If he thinks it is illegal, it is illegal for whatever reasons Shanahan says it is.
The "burden of proof" is what is presented to Shanahan to make a determination; in every NHL case, that's video evidence. If he doesn't see a hit, how can he suspend a player without evidence that an illegal act was committed?

Quote:
Are we really having a discussion about the difference between the legal system and the NHL? The bottom line is, I think that the NHL should not give out harsher punishments for hits that result in injury or lighter punishments for hits that do not. An illegal hit is an illegal hit. If a hit that injures Player A gets Player B five games, why should a comparable hit that doesn't injure Player C get Player D only one game?
What you think is an illegal hit may not be the same as what I think is an illegal hit.

And not all hits are created equal. So, in your example, the deciding factor (as employed by the NHL, to my satisfaction and clearly not yours) is that Player A is injured and Player C isn't.

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:10 PM
  #107
DrinkFightFlyers
Provolone & The Neck
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 14,734
vCash: 470
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The "burden of proof" is what is presented to Shanahan to make a determination; in every NHL case, that's video evidence. If he doesn't see a hit, how can he suspend a player without evidence that an illegal act was committed?
I think you are misunderstanding the term burden of proof. Burden of proof refers to what a party must show in order to be successful in their claim or in order to get a conviction. In a criminal case, for example, the prosecutor must show that every element of the crime has been committed. He has the burden of proof of proving every element, and the defendant can make his defense (i.e. that certain elements were not committed or that there was some reason for committing such elements). The judge/jury doesn't just look at the security tape or look at some evidence and say hmm...looks like he's guilty. Same thing in a civil case. If I represent someone that had property damage because you hit their property with your car, I don't just show the jury the bill for repairs and say you were negligent because you hit my crap so give me the money. You have to PROVE your case.

In the context of an NHL disciplinary hearing, there is no one proving anything to Shanahan. Shanahan and his guys look at the tape and say thumbs up, thumbs down. If they doesn't like it, it is a suspension.

There is no one there (unless I am missing something) on behalf of the NHL that has to prove something in order for a suspension to be handed down. It is simply Reviewed by Shanahan and his underlings and a decision is made. Hence, no burden of proof. A lot different than the legal system we have in the US (maybe its different in Canada, I don't know TBH). But again, are we really discussing this. It doesn't really have any impact on what I think is suspendable and what you think is suspendable.

Quote:
What you think is an illegal hit may not be the same as what I think is an illegal hit.
Exactly. Doesn't mean I am right or you are right. We just disagree with what we think is suspendable.

Quote:
And not all hits are created equal. So, in your example, the deciding factor (as employed by the NHL, to my satisfaction and clearly not yours) is that Player A is injured and Player C isn't.
Exactly. You are ok with that, I am not.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:17 PM
  #108
ihatebraydenschenn
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SunnyvaleTrailerPark
Country: Canada
Posts: 996
vCash: 500
So is he dead, or what?

ihatebraydenschenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:33 PM
  #109
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 16,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think you are misunderstanding the term burden of proof.
I'm not, although the lines are blurred a little bit between the stages of "policing"/"prosecuting"/"judging" in the NHL sense. A team presents the evidence to Shanahan for review because they believe supplemental discipline may be warranted. Though the team may not be seeking a certain outcome, they still are presenting evidence on behalf of the "victim" (in a sense).

Quote:
Exactly. Doesn't mean I am right or you are right. We just disagree with what we think is suspendable.

Exactly. You are ok with that, I am not.
It really doesn't matter how I believe the NHL should handle these cases, but I fully accept the way they do it.

Wilson will get five games or less because Schenn didn't break his neck (or suffer a severe injury, since he has claimed that he does not have a conussion); that's the way it is and will be for the foreseeable future. If I'm making an argument on how many games a player should get for a dirty play, it's because I'm taking how the NHL will look at the incident into question. Arguing otherwise is futile.

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:33 PM
  #110
CharlieGirl
Summer
 
CharlieGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by galvo View Post
So is he dead, or what?
Flyers training staff says no.

So, should we send flowers or just make a donation?

CharlieGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:38 PM
  #111
ihatebraydenschenn
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SunnyvaleTrailerPark
Country: Canada
Posts: 996
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Flyers training staff says no.

So, should we send flowers or just make a donation?
I can't afford either, sorry B.

ihatebraydenschenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:40 PM
  #112
Akanon
Registered User
 
Akanon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,053
vCash: 500

Akanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:41 PM
  #113
JackStraw
Moving much too slow
 
JackStraw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 2,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by galvo View Post
So is he dead, or what?
He's only mostly dead.

JackStraw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:43 PM
  #114
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
 
JDinkalage Morgoone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 308 Negra Arroyo Ln.
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 13,593
vCash: 500
He nets a hatty next game. BOOK IT.

JDinkalage Morgoone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 03:54 PM
  #115
ihatebraydenschenn
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SunnyvaleTrailerPark
Country: Canada
Posts: 996
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackStraw View Post
He's only mostly dead.
Skip to 5:00 if the link didn't do it automatically.


ihatebraydenschenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 04:13 PM
  #116
AaronTrieu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,229
vCash: 500
Schenn summed it up well.

AaronTrieu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 06:26 PM
  #117
Legion of Gloom
.....Flyer Alarm
 
Legion of Gloom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lake Titicaca
Country: Germany
Posts: 1,537
vCash: 26952
Quote:
Originally Posted by galvo View Post
So is he dead, or what?


Just brain dead

Legion of Gloom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 07:01 PM
  #118
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,407
vCash: 500
That main board thread is a great example of some people not understanding very basic NHL rules like charging and boarding. Also a nice display of people not understanding some very basic and observable physics. Probably also a good indication that a lot of people link headshots with suspensions as if the former is necessary for the latter.

Main boards.

Garbage Goal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 07:38 PM
  #119
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion of Goon View Post
Just brain dead
That's not a very nice thing to say about yourself.

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2013, 07:59 PM
  #120
Tripod
Registered User
 
Tripod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
He nets a hatty next game. BOOK IT.
more like he gets hit with a little routine check then leaves the game with concussion like symptoms. I see no reason to risk his season on this. Sit for 2-3 games. MAKE SURE HE IS OK!!!!

Tripod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-19-2013, 03:52 AM
  #121
ugiswrong
Registered User
 
ugiswrong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: deutschland
Country: United States
Posts: 811
vCash: 500
He feels better than he expected himself to.......I'd sit him at least the next game

ugiswrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-19-2013, 05:59 AM
  #122
StandingCow
Registered User
 
StandingCow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 3,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
I think the Flyers and Schenn have confirmed they didn't do a baseline test on him.
This is very worrying to me... he was clearly dazed and fell twice, it also looked like he didn't have full control of his arms, which right away made me think of the "fencing response"... am I remember right?

Oh well, they know what they are doing more than I do.

StandingCow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-19-2013, 06:04 AM
  #123
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 116,502
vCash: 450
Turn it back for a second.


Is there a good reason for Schenn to not to take the test? Is he going to get smorfed into pixie dust if he takes the test for supposedly no reason? It seems to be egregiously incompetent.

__________________
Philadelphia's Real Alternative
(ynotradio.net)

Stop Feeding the Rumor-Monger

"I wonder if Norstrom has Forsberg's spleen mounted on his wall." - KINGS17

My 50 Favorite Albums of 2014 (sorry it's late)
GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-19-2013, 06:17 AM
  #124
flyerfanish
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 126
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Turn it back for a second.


Is there a good reason for Schenn to not to take the test? Is he going to get smorfed into pixie dust if he takes the test for supposedly no reason? It seems to be egregiously incompetent.
It's a contract year. He has tons to lose.

flyerfanish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-19-2013, 06:48 AM
  #125
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 116,502
vCash: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyerfanish View Post
It's a contract year. He has tons to lose.
Assuming this is a legitimate answer (it's not), that strategy hasn't worked for Marc-Andre Bourdon.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.